Eastern Orthodox Christian Discussion on Epistimology

Elocm

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I'm curious what the Orthodox Christian view of epistemology is. I've been struggling with the idea of epistemic certainty (i.e. is it possible? if so, how can we know for sure? if not, then can we really know God?) would love to hear y'alls thoughts on this!

And If you have any reading/video material on the topic then please share. Thank you!
 
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Elocm

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it's possible. if God is Almighty, and the only thing He can't do is deny Himself, then He can absolutely make something known to man in a way that man can be sure.

Ok, but how do you know that to be case? How do you know that God has done that? How do you know that God could do that? and how do you know that the Orthodox view of God is correct as opposed to a different religion?

Those are some of the questions that come to mind, you don't have to answer all of them but I figured I'd throw them out there.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ok, but how do you know that to be case? How do you know that God has done that? How do you know that God could do that? and how do you know that the Orthodox view of God is correct as opposed to a different religion?

Those are some of the questions that come to mind, you don't have to answer all of them but I figured I'd throw them out there.

if God is Almighty, He can make Himself (or anything He wants) known so that all doubt about whatever He reveals is erased,
 
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Elocm

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if God is Almighty, He can make Himself (or anything He wants) known so that all doubt about whatever He reveals is erased,

I suppose that, in theory, God could do that. But how do you justify the belief, in a way that would provide epistemic certainty, that God has done that?

And why should we posit the Christian God and not a different god? Because that statement you made could be made about any kind of god.
 
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icxn

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...And If you have any reading/video material on the topic then please share. Thank you!
Take a look at Metropolitan Hierotheos and his book Orthodox Psychotherapy, especially this chapter.

Excerpt:
When a person rises from bodily knowledge to the soul’s knowledge and from that to spiritual knowledge, then he sees God and possesses knowledge of God, which is his salvation. Knowledge of God, as will be explained further on, is not intellectual, but existential. That is, one’s whole being is filled with this knowledge of God. But in order to attain it, one’s heart must have been purified, that is, the soul, nous (intellect) and heart must have been healed. “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God” (Matt.5,8).
...
These things show that the vision of God, deification, union and knowledge of God are closely bound together. They cannot be understood apart from one another. Breaking this unity takes man further away from knowledge of God. The basis of Orthodox epistemology is illumination and God’s revelation within the purified heart of man.

As we have seen, knowledge of God is beyond human knowledge. Vision of the uncreated light surpasses all epistemological activity and is “beyond sight and knowledge” (2,3,50). Since vision of the uncreated light is offered to the hearts of the faithful and perfect, that is why “it is superior to the light of knowledge” (2,3,18;CWS p.63). And not only is it superior to the light of human knowledge “from Hellenic studies”, but also the light of this theoria differs from “the light that comes from the Holy Scriptures”, since the light of the Scriptures may be compared to “a lamp that shines in an obscure place, whereas vision of the uncreated light resembles the morning star which shines in the day, that is to say, the sun” (2,3,18;CWS p.63). The grace of deification thus transcends nature, virtue and human knowledge (3,1,27).
 
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Elocm

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Take a look at Metropolitan Hierotheos and his book Orthodox Psychotherapy, especially this chapter.

Excerpt:
When a person rises from bodily knowledge to the soul’s knowledge and from that to spiritual knowledge, then he sees God and possesses knowledge of God, which is his salvation. Knowledge of God, as will be explained further on, is not intellectual, but existential. That is, one’s whole being is filled with this knowledge of God. But in order to attain it, one’s heart must have been purified, that is, the soul, nous (intellect) and heart must have been healed. “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God” (Matt.5,8).
...
These things show that the vision of God, deification, union and knowledge of God are closely bound together. They cannot be understood apart from one another. Breaking this unity takes man further away from knowledge of God. The basis of Orthodox epistemology is illumination and God’s revelation within the purified heart of man.

As we have seen, knowledge of God is beyond human knowledge. Vision of the uncreated light surpasses all epistemological activity and is “beyond sight and knowledge” (2,3,50). Since vision of the uncreated light is offered to the hearts of the faithful and perfect, that is why “it is superior to the light of knowledge” (2,3,18;CWS p.63). And not only is it superior to the light of human knowledge “from Hellenic studies”, but also the light of this theoria differs from “the light that comes from the Holy Scriptures”, since the light of the Scriptures may be compared to “a lamp that shines in an obscure place, whereas vision of the uncreated light resembles the morning star which shines in the day, that is to say, the sun” (2,3,18;CWS p.63). The grace of deification thus transcends nature, virtue and human knowledge (3,1,27).

Thank you for sharing.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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ArmyMatt

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I suppose that, in theory, God could do that. But how do you justify the belief, in a way that would provide epistemic certainty, that God has done that?

And why should we posit the Christian God and not a different god? Because that statement you made could be made about any kind of god.

well, it's what Christians have been claiming for 2000 years, and the Jews that came before them. that seems like pretty solid justification.

why the Christian God and not some other god? that depends on the other god we're trying to compare Him to.
 
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Elocm

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well, it's what Christians have been claiming for 2000 years, and the Jews that came before them. that seems like pretty solid justification.

why the Christian God and not some other god? that depends on the other god we're trying to compare Him to.

But merely making a claim for 2,000 years isn't itself a justification, it's still just a very old claim. Many religions have been making claims for thousands of years. So how do we know to pick one over the other? How can we be epistemically certain that any of them are true?
 
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Elocm

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It seems to be that the topic of Apophatic (negative theology) touched on this.


Apophatic theology - Wikipedia.


edit, ok somebody later on in this thread touched on this topic.

Thank you for sharing. How I would bring this back around to epistemology is, any negative theology (apophatic) about what God isn't must first have a foundation of a positive theology of God (cataphatic). In order to to know what God isn't you must also have an understanding of what God is.

Once you start getting into cataphatic theology, you inevitably are confronted with epistemology (how you know something is true). How do Orthodox justify their cataphatic beliefs about God? How can we know for certain that God even exists? let alone the Orthodox conception of God.
 
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ArmyMatt

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But merely making a claim for 2,000 years isn't itself a justification, it's still just a very old claim. Many religions have been making claims for thousands of years. So how do we know to pick one over the other? How can we be epistemically certain that any of them are true?

because, again, if the God you are confessing is Almighty, He can reveal anything He wants in a way to remove all doubt. only really the Abrahamic religions confess such a God Who comes to man as He is.
 
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Elocm

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because, again, if the God you are confessing is Almighty, He can reveal anything He wants in a way to remove all doubt. only really the Abrahamic religions confess such a God Who comes to man as He is.

You still haven't given any justification for this belief. You are just making claims about what a god could do, in theory, so long as he meets the criteria of being "Almighty". But haven't addressed how you know for certain that God has done this, that God is Almighty, that it's the Christian God as opposed to any other god, or that God even exists.

How do the Orthodox justify their ultimate foundational truths, in a way that is epistemically certain and isn't circular?
 
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ArmyMatt

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You still haven't given any justification for this belief. You are just making claims about what a god could do, in theory, so long as he meets the criteria of being "Almighty". But haven't addressed how you know for certain that God has done this, that God is Almighty, that it's the Christian God as opposed to any other god, or that God even exists.

How do the Orthodox justify their ultimate foundational truths, in a way that is epistemically certain and isn't circular?

because we know Him. you're treating God like a concept to be argued and defended, not a Person to be known.
 
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Elocm

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because we know Him. you're treating God like a concept to be argued and defended, not a Person to be known.

What is the means by which you know God? and how do you justify this? and how can you be certain that you really know God? maybe you and everyone else have been tricked.

It seems to me that I could make these claims about any god I wanted, but it wouldn't necessarily be true. I could say, "My god is almighty, therefore can provide epistemic certainty and I know this because I know him." But that says nothing about how I can know this for certain or that any of it is true.
 
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ArmyMatt

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What is the means by which you know God? and how do you justify this? and how can you be certain that you really know God? maybe you and everyone else have been tricked.

It seems to me that I could make these claims about any god I wanted, but it wouldn't necessarily be true. I could say, "My god is almighty, therefore can provide epistemic certainty and I know this because I know him." But that says nothing about how I can know this for certain or that any of it is true.

I justify this the same way I would for any person that I know and you don't know: tell you to seek after Him. you're still treating this like philosophy. it's not, it's theology. you start with an encounter with the living God,
 
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ArmyMatt

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That seems to be a false equivalency. You don't know God the same way you know human beings. I can go a find a human person and greet them face to face, since human beings are material. But God, is not the same way.

God became material (the Incarnation) so it's pretty much the same way, only He can erase all doubt.
 
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Elocm

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Well this brings us back around to epistemology, how do you know the incarnation happened? How can you properly justify this with epistemic certainty. I can't go and shake hands with the Incarnate Christ. And even if I could go and shake hands with someone claiming they are the Incarnate Christ, that doesn't mean they really are.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Well this brings us back around to epistemology, how do you know the incarnation happened? How can you properly justify this with epistemic certainty. I can't go and shake hands with the Incarnate Christ. And even if I could go and shake hands with someone claiming they are the Incarnate Christ, that doesn't mean they really are.

I know the Incarnation happened because I know Christ.

just because you can't shake hands with someone, that doesn't mean you question they exist. I mean, do you question that Abraham Lincoln existed just because you can't shake his hand?
 
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