If you are Calvinist

BobRyan · Jun 1, 2020

Jonaitis said:
I think you are confusing God's preceptive will with his decretive will. The former relates to what is good and right, the latter refer to divine decree.

God has prescriptive law, commands, standards of right doing vs wrong.

Let's say for the sake of argument --
God wills that "everyone" come to repentance - not willing for ANY to perish.

But then God supernaturally enables "free will" and so "whosoever will" may come. He "stands at the door and knocks" so that "if anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

Still -- even in that scenario

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

===================

by contrast we have this -

Jonaitis said:
It was God's decretive will for Moses to commit murder,

Or was that his permissive will... He foreknew what would happen and then permitted it - so then "plan B".

The "other option" could have been Moses does not commit murder - his good example as in the case of Daniel with the Babylonian king and so also in the case of Ezra and Nehemiah with foreign kings, Mordecai with foreign kings - influence them to free the people of Israel.

God has many options where "right doing" leads to good results. He does not "need" evil in order to accomplish good.

Christ was sweating great drops of blood in Gethsemane - He did not "need" a mob to come and arrest him... He was already dying, paying our debt of sin which is not the debt of having Roman soldiers torment us for a day.

Carl Emerson · Jun 1, 2020

BobRyan said:
If you have free will - then God foreknows you will do something but He does not force you to do it.

If you have free will - then if God offers the Gospel you are free to accept or reject as opposed to simply being enslaved to the sinful nature as the "answer for every decision". The fact that God enables that choice by supernaturally drawing all mankind to himself - does not destroy your free will - it enables it. Because you could still decline.

if you have free will then "what caused you to choose as you did" is out of the question. It no longer applies.

How do you then view the conversion of Saul?

Did he choose to be blinded ?

renniks · Jun 2, 2020

Calvinism is inherently self contradicting in it's current form. Historically, Calvin himself and others would just flat out day God destined you to sin, but most try to find wiggle room now, where there really isn't any.
To believe in what passes for calvinism in the USA today, you have to embrace the contradiction.

Joy · Jun 2, 2020

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BobRyan · Jun 2, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
How do you then view the conversion of Saul?

Did he choose to be blinded ?

Agreed - he did not choose that.

Did the men of Sodom choose to be blinded?

Hammster · Jun 2, 2020

renniks said:
Calvinism is inherently self contradicting in it's current form. Historically, Calvin himself and others would just flat out day God destined you to sin, but most try to find wiggle room now, where there really isn't any.
To believe in what passes for calvinism in the USA today, you have to embrace the contradiction.

What contradiction?

Carl Emerson · Jun 2, 2020

BobRyan said:
Agreed - he did not choose that.

Did the men of Sodom choose to be blinded?

This to me simply illustrates that 'free will' is a myth.

There is however, freedom to choose within bounds that God puts in place.

BobRyan · Jun 2, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
For this conversation to have real meaning you would have to define 'free will' first.

If you have free will - then God foreknows you will do something but He does not force you to do it.

If you have free will - then if God offers the Gospel you are free to accept or reject as opposed to simply being enslaved to the sinful nature as the "answer for every decision". The fact that God enables that choice by supernaturally drawing all mankind to himself - does not destroy your free will - it enables it. Because you could still decline.

if you have free will then "what caused you to choose as you did" is out of the question. It no longer applies.

Carl Emerson said:
How do you then view the conversion of Saul?

Did he choose to be blinded ?

Agreed - he did not choose that.

Did the men of Sodom choose to be blinded?

Carl Emerson said:
This to me simply illustrates that 'free will' is a myth.

There is however, freedom to choose within bounds that God puts in place.

how is it a myth when in the one case they are blinded "and stuck to rebellion anyway"
and in the other example -- Saul is blinded and shortly after that becomes the Apostle Paul

God sovereignly chooses to get their attention in whatever way He wishes - but then they have to decide what to do in response.

Both of the thieves on the cross were lost - both were being crucified, both were confronted with the dying crucified redeemer of all mankind in a more vivid manner than anyone could imagine: - one then later chooses the 180 degree reversal and the other "stays on the course" of rebellion to the bitter end.

Carl Emerson · Jun 2, 2020

Excuse the question but you cant decide to be a horse.

Therefore in the absolute sense you don't have free will.

All our choices are within limits set by Him.

MDC · Jun 2, 2020

renniks said:
Calvinism is inherently self contradicting in it's current form. Historically, Calvin himself and others would just flat out day God destined you to sin, but most try to find wiggle room now, where there really isn't any.
To believe in what passes for calvinism in the USA today, you have to embrace the contradiction.

I believe llikecats answered it pretty straight forward earlier on this thread. No contradiction

BobRyan · Jun 2, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Excuse the question but you cant decide to be a horse. .

You can't decide that earth is going to have a breathable atmosphere and the moon is not. But you can decide to breathe. To live where there is clean air.

God is the one who provided the "atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

God is the one that decided to "so love the WORLD that He gave" John 3;16

God is the one that decided to "Draw ALL mankind unto him" John 12:32

To "Stand at the door and knock and if anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

So while it is true I could never have "made God choose all of that" -- once He did then "we have air on Earth" and can choose to breath it ... or not.

Rom 2:11 "God is not partial".

He has created a global gospel - that reaches anyone the Holy Spirit can reach - and He "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- not "just the few of Matthew 7"

Carl Emerson · Jun 2, 2020

BobRyan said:
You can't decide that earth is going to have a breathable atmosphere and the moon is not. But you can decide to breathe. To live where there is clean air.

God is the one who provided the "atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

God is the one that decided to "so love the WORLD that He gave" John 3;16

God is the one that decided to "Draw ALL mankind unto him" John 12:32

To "Stand at the door and knock and if anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

So while it is true I could never have "made God choose all of that" -- once He did then "we have air on Earth" and can choose to breath it ... or not.

Exactly so you agree we have the ability to decide within limits that He sets.

renniks · Jun 2, 2020

Hammster said:
What contradiction?

God predestined everything but you still choose everything. Nope, can't have both and be logical. If everything is predestined, you choose nothing in reality.

renniks · Jun 2, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
This to me simply illustrates that 'free will' is a myth.

There is however, freedom to choose within bounds that God puts in place.

See, another person embracing the contradiction.

Hammster · Jun 2, 2020

renniks said:
God predestined everything but you still choose everything. Nope, can't have both and be logical. If everything is predestined, you choose nothing in reality.

Who was responsible for Joseph being sold into slavery?

Carl Emerson · Jun 2, 2020

renniks said:
See, another person embracing the contradiction.

Explain...

renniks · Jun 2, 2020

renniks said:
See, another person embracing the contradiction.

jo

Hammster said:
Who was responsible for Joseph being sold into slavery?

Joseph's brothers. I suppose you are hanging all this on Joseph's statement that God meant it for good.

This is simply about God using evil for good, rather than causing the evil that He uses. God did not mean what they meant. Rather, God used what they meant, to bring about good, instead.
And remember, this is just something Joseph said to make his brothers feel better. It's not a theological statement. People in the Bible make all kinds of statements that don't match what is actually reality.
To fit the Calvinist interpretation it would have to say that God decreed that Joseph’s brothers would hate him, desire to kill him, sell him into Egypt, and then lie to their father.

renniks · Jun 2, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Explain...

You say Free Will is a myth and then try to claim we have limited Free Will. Which is it?

Hammster · Jun 2, 2020

renniks said:
jo

Joseph's brothers. I suppose you are hanging all this on Joseph's statement that God meant it for good.

This is simply about God using evil for good, rather than causing the evil that He uses. God did not mean what they meant. Rather, God used what they meant, to bring about good, instead.
And remember, this is just something Joseph said to make his brothers feel better. It's not a theological statement. People in the Bible make all kinds of statements that don't match what is actually reality.
To fit the Calvinist interpretation it would have to say that God decreed that Joseph’s brothers would hate him, desire to kill him, sell him into Egypt, and then lie to their father.

Did Joseph say that God used it for good? Or are you reading into the text?

Carl Emerson · Jun 2, 2020

renniks said:
You say Free Will is a myth and then try to claim we have limited Free Will. Which is it?

In an absolute sense no one has free will - you cant decide to become an elephant.

But within the boundaries God has set we are free to choose our course in life.

As far as salvation goes however, John eliminates the human will in being born again.

We cant choose Him He chooses us.

Many are called and but are chosen.

His choosing was set before we were born.

No one can earn salvation.

Repentance is a gift.

However those destined to be His, will have an inner yearning for Him, this is also a gift.

He made it this way to have an eternal family eternally grateful.

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