What is the greatest moral issue in modern society?

muichimotsu said:

If you just believe something because of your conviction, that isn't sufficient justification unless you don't care about truth, but merely your own sentiments about what feels true. You can insist it's right, but without any substantive justification, you're effectively just asserting it with no basis beyond your personal perspective

I never said proof, you did, so now you're just strawmanning instead of trying to actually discuss things with an agreed upon terminology

The shoreline is more complex than you appear to think and technically will shift over millennia anyway, as I recall, same with how the continents were not always separate

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You understand what I meant about the shoreline, you just want it to seem more technical in it's understanding than it really is.

Strawmanning is a term you use, as though I am putting out a bunch of nonsense just to change the subject, I can tell your really not interested so I think were through.

Tinker Grey said:

So for your god, the ends does justify the means?

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Does it? I don't think so.When one sacrifices oneself for others I think the means is noble in and of itself. It doesn't need to be justified by pointing to the ends. One only needs to justify one's means by rationalizing that one has a noble end in mind when those means are ignoble.

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

Of all the issues in modern society, what is the greatest?

I had this question as an assignment in my Christian Morality class, and I thought it would be good to share it here. I had a friend who put down that the greatest moral issue is that we keep talking about moral issues without actually doing anything about them. I liked that idea, and when I had another assignment I wrote in the class (about a controversial moral issue), I decided to write about the societal acceptance of laziness.

I think laziness could rightly be defined as at least 1 of the greatest moral issues in modern society. It is a fundamental problem, because the more laziness is accepted, the less will be done about any moral problem. I see it all the time when people waste hours on YouTube, Snapchat, or any of the vast entertainment platforms that are available today. What would happen to mental health problems, and moral issues throughout the world today, if people put aside this entertainment in favor of doing something that brings accomplishment to their life? Not the entertainment is bad in and of itself, but when entertainment becomes a way of life, we miss out on so much!

So what do you think?

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Racism.

It creates plenty of money for other nations, and the nations that participated in it - with pride - always refuse to address it and never admit it exists in an overt or systemic form. What happens is people make excuses for the racism, or bring up some stereotype that seems to justify action. They dont, instead, see others as humans - otherwise black men wouldn't be dying every other month on camera by the hands of civilians or cops in America. You can tell the substance of a nation by how they treat their "lowest" member of society, and America disposes of blacks by killing then, false witness or imprisonment from early age.

It is sick how much people enjoy life while they KNOW others are subjugated for social or financial profit. Here in first world America, you can still call the cops and make up a story about a black guy doing something, and it will be believed. Police still kill black men. The American government dumps nuclear waste on and near Reservations. The American government imprisoned its own (Japanese) citizens.

This ignorance and lack of concern for fellow man will lead to destruction as it always does, but the the fun for most is worth it.

JIMINZ said:

You understand what I meant about the shoreline, you just want it to seem more technical in it's understanding than it really is.

Strawmanning is a term you use, as though I am putting out a bunch of nonsense just to change the subject, I can tell your really not interested so I think were through.

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Do you study the ocean professionally or such? No. Neither do I, but at least I'll admit I could be mistaken, whereas you seem to think you know why and I seriously doubt that

If you don't know what the term means, maybe research it instead of reacting as if I personally attacked you

muichimotsu said:

The solution is not becoming one with it, but improving it without trying to be unrealistic in your expectations, like demanding perfection

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Jesus gave us a hint in that direction. Love all as self. It starts with each of us.

timothyu said:

Jesus gave us a hint in that direction. Love all as self. It starts with each of us.

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And that's somehow unique to Jesus? Can you substantiate that? Pretty sure Buddhism, if not several other religions not related to Christianity (because Islam, if I brought that up, would just be accused of plagiarism or being derivative, I wager) have the idea of compassion and loving others by association as core to improving the world and individual wellbeing

muichimotsu said:

Do you study the ocean professionally or such? No. Neither do I, but at least I'll admit I could be mistaken, whereas you seem to think you know why and I seriously doubt that

If you don't know what the term means, maybe research it instead of reacting as if I personally attacked you

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What are you rambling on about?

muichimotsu said:

Do you study the ocean professionally or such? No. Neither do I, but at least I'll admit I could be mistaken, whereas you seem to think you know why and I seriously doubt that

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I do know why, and you should also, but apparently do not.

Job 38:8-11
8) Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9) When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10) And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11) And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the Creator of the Universe has set the boundary for the Oceans that they should not cross over.

That is what is called the Shoreline.

JIMINZ said:

I do know why, and you should also, but apparently do not.

Job 38:8-11
8) Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9) When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10) And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11) And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the Creator of the Universe has set the boundary for the Oceans that they should not cross over.

That is what is called the Shoreline.

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Except for the occasional tsunami.

Speedwell said:

Except for the occasional tsunami.

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There are always exceptions made for tsunamis.

JIMINZ said:

What are you rambling on about?

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You brought up something and then suggested scientific explanations were too complicated and prefer your "Goddit" explanation, which is far more lazy and antithetical to any pursuit of genuine truth. Do you think I can't pull up your quote? Because here it is

You understand what I meant about the shoreline, you just want it to seem more technical in it's understanding than it really is.

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You then quote the bible as if that metaphor and antiquated idea from Bronze age Israelites means anything in terms of how things were millions of years before where the shoreline was, I'm almost certain, at a different place because of the shifting of the continents, etc.

muichimotsu said:

I understand the need for stories and parables to expound on those ideas, but the problem remains that the bible, in trying to account for everything, becomes so verbose and unnecessarily dense that it's no wonder even "faithful" Christians likely haven't read the entire bible once in their lifetime because it's like busy work almost. At best, they're familiar with the Gospels and Epistles, but that's more easily done through bible study anyway unlike the OT where you have slavery and general tribalism with the ancient Israelites.

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In the OT you have the birth of consciousness, the upward struggle of civilization, the increasing reduction of slavery (which was universal), the struggle to accomplish the Rule of Law (The very same Rule of Law you hear about in the news today, and we still are challenged to hold to as a nation...).

Basically everything fundamental to civilization.

The whole fraught human condition of autonomy/freedom and of God/Good vs evil.

muichimotsu said:

And that's somehow unique to Jesus? Can you substantiate that? Pretty sure Buddhism, if not several other religions not related to Christianity (because Islam, if I brought that up, would just be accused of plagiarism or being derivative, I wager) have the idea of compassion and loving others by association as core to improving the world and individual wellbeing

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Truth (in this case, "truth" being the best of all competing ways to live life) isn't ever unique to one nation, group, teacher.... Truth is always universal. It's not invented or created like a work of art. This particular one is set by human nature. It preexists all individuals that state it, everywhere.

This particular best way to live -- "love your neighbor as yourself" -- ought to be discovered millions or even billions of times.... There is no human inventor to give credit to, but rather discoverers in very great number, maybe most people even.

Halbhh said:

In the OT you have the birth of consciousness, the upward struggle of civilization, the increasing reduction of slavery (which was universal), the struggle to accomplish the Rule of Law (The very same Rule of Law you hear about in the news today, and we still are challenged to hold to as a nation...).

Basically everything fundamental to civilization.

The whole fraught human condition of autonomy/freedom and of God/Good vs evil.

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Reduction? Where is it reduced? There's literally a section in Deuteronomy and Exodus about how to properly treat your slaves: not getting rid of slavery, but trying to make it so that you treat both slaves appropriately, but that you can take slaves from Gentiles and put a fellow Hebrew into "slavery" of sorts and trick them into serving you forever

Challenge to accomplish something doesn't make the pursuit worthless or even requiring authoritarian measures

Again, just because it has that, why should someone take the bible as some unique moral text when it doesn't appear to reflect that, esp. with an enslaved people not deciding to try and ABOLISH slavery.

Halbhh said:

Truth (in this case, "truth" being the best of all competing ways to live life) isn't ever unique to one nation, group, teacher.... Truth is always universal. It's not invented or created like a work of art. This particular one is set by human nature. It preexists all individuals that state it, everywhere.

This particular best way to live -- "love your neighbor as yourself" -- ought to be discovered millions or even billions of times.... There is no human inventor to give credit to, but rather discoverers in very great number, maybe most people even.

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And the universality of that renders the claims of absolute truth in Christianity's own worldview regarding salvation, obedience, etc, effectively moot and pointless if you fully admit that we can deduce these ideas on our own. Unless we're getting into the idea of God "writing the law" on our heart, which is circular logic and begs the question in the discussion

muichimotsu said:

You brought up something and then suggested scientific explanations were too complicated and prefer your "Goddit" explanation, which is far more lazy and antithetical to any pursuit of genuine truth. Do you think I can't pull up your quote? Because here it is



You then quote the bible as if that metaphor and antiquated idea from Bronze age Israelites means anything in terms of how things were millions of years before where the shoreline was, I'm almost certain, at a different place because of the shifting of the continents, etc.

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Yeah right

muichimotsu said:

Reduction? Where is it reduced? There's literally a section in Deuteronomy and Exodus about how to properly treat your slaves: not getting rid of slavery, but trying to make it so that you treat both slaves appropriately, but that you can take slaves from Gentiles and put a fellow Hebrew into "slavery" of sorts and trick them into serving you forever

Challenge to accomplish something doesn't make the pursuit worthless or even requiring authoritarian measures

Again, just because it has that, why should someone take the bible as some unique moral text when it doesn't appear to reflect that, esp. with an enslaved people not deciding to try and ABOLISH slavery.

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Step by step. A incremental progression, over time.

Why? Because Israel had over and over failed to follow the big step laws.

They needed smaller steps. Small changes. One regulation step at a time. That's why so many small regulations came in the O.T.

Anti-Christian propaganda tries to paint the first step as the final law.

But if we simply read, we find more steps, and often dramatic.

For instance:

15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.
Deuteronomy 23 NIV

Sound familiar?

It reminds of the Underground Railroad of the United States of the 1850s, where slaves were helped by to escape and gain freedom.

Except, the U.S. Underground Railroad was illegal! --
"It is important to realize that while conductors and fugitive slaves were participating on the Underground Railroad, all of their actions were illegal. The federal government had passed Fugitive Slave Acts as early as 1793 that allowed slave catchers to come north and force runaways back into slavery."
History | National Underground Railroad Freedom Center

But in Israel about 3300 years earlier, instead of illegal, this was commanded as Law from God!

What do you think of that step?

Finally, with Christ, we get the revolutionary implication of

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

"In everything..."

Which led inevitably to slaves being freed, and even more -- becoming total equals(!) -- as in Philemon.
Philemon 1 NIV


Notice how this very high ideal of total full equality isn't the norm in worldly American society. It's only the norm for us today that fully believe in Christ, so that we believe we should totally follow His words.

Which only a minority of people in the U.S. will.

JIMINZ said:

Yeah right

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Ah, the immature quip, indicative that you don't have an argument, just rhetoric and a script that I'm not going to fall into. Too bad for you

I

Halbhh said:

Step by step. A incremental progression, over time.

Why? Because Israel had over and over failed to follow the big step laws.

They needed smaller steps. Small changes. One regulation step at a time. That's why so many small regulations came in the O.T.

Anti-Christian propaganda tries to paint the first step as the final law.

But if we simply read, we find more steps, and often dramatic.

For instance:

15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.
Deuteronomy 23 NIV

Sound familiar?

It reminds of the Underground Railroad of the United States of the 1850s, where slaves were helped by to escape and gain freedom.

Except, the U.S. Underground Railroad was illegal! --
"It is important to realize that while conductors and fugitive slaves were participating on the Underground Railroad, all of their actions were illegal. The federal government had passed Fugitive Slave Acts as early as 1793 that allowed slave catchers to come north and force runaways back into slavery."
History | National Underground Railroad Freedom Center

But in Israel about 3300 years earlier, instead of illegal, this was commanded as Law from God!

What do you think of that step?

Finally, with Christ, we get the revolutionary implication of

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

"In everything..."

Which led inevitably to slaves being freed, and even more -- becoming total equals(!) -- as in Philemon.
Philemon 1 NIV


Notice how this very high ideal of total full equality isn't the norm in worldly American society. It's only the norm for us today that fully believe in Christ, so that we believe we should totally follow His words.

Which only a minority of people in the U.S. will.

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You're still trying to suggest that because they have one prohibition against slavery you can quote from the OT that somehow that excuses the slavery that the Israelites were explicitly told was moral and approved in the same grouping of books. Except it really doesn't, it suggests that the Israelites were hypocrites, same as anyone when they try to prop up their way of life and worldview as being divinely inspired or protected, justifying atrocities against humanity like slavery, genocide and general prejudice.

The "step" you quote from ancient Israel is contradicted by them saying you can own a Gentile as property, period and as long as you don't kill them by beating them, you can discipline them however you want, seemingly, with a few restrictions

The problem remains that you somehow think that Christianity is unique in that notion and that is something you'd have to actually substantiate instead of generalizing every non Abrahamic faith. I don't claim to be an expert, but methinks there's a strong tinge of bias in trying to suggest Christianity is the direct cause in terms of people respecting others rather than it merely having more hegemonic power in history and thus having the advantage in influencing history and society more than other groups that were competing in some sense. It's why Islam is dominant in the Middle East, why Buddhism is dominant in Southeast Asia, etc. It doesn't mean anything in terms of the truth of the claims if they are held commonly by people in a region where those claims are commonplace

I call malarkey on that, full equality is the goal in America, the problem is how people have let their greed or envy or other flaws in character (not sins, that's your word, I have no reason to use it) blind them in terms of seeking compassion for others. To suggest even remotely that only Christians want equality ends up with you calling No True Scotsman on KKK members that defended slavery as justified by cherry picking the bible, the same way you ignore anything that would remotely suggest slavery was considered moral or approved of in the bible (Exodus 21 comes immediately to mind, among others, including some from the NT)

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

Of all the issues in modern society, what is the greatest?

I had this question as an assignment in my Christian Morality class, and I thought it would be good to share it here. I had a friend who put down that the greatest moral issue is that we keep talking about moral issues without actually doing anything about them. I liked that idea, and when I had another assignment I wrote in the class (about a controversial moral issue), I decided to write about the societal acceptance of laziness.

I think laziness could rightly be defined as at least 1 of the greatest moral issues in modern society. It is a fundamental problem, because the more laziness is accepted, the less will be done about any moral problem. I see it all the time when people waste hours on YouTube, Snapchat, or any of the vast entertainment platforms that are available today. What would happen to mental health problems, and moral issues throughout the world today, if people put aside this entertainment in favor of doing something that brings accomplishment to their life? Not the entertainment is bad in and of itself, but when entertainment becomes a way of life, we miss out on so much!

So what do you think?

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The deliberate rejection of revelation.