LDS when and how did God become the father of our spirits

Peter1000

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Hebrews 12 Good News Translation (GNT)
God Our Father
12 As for us, we have this large crowd of witnesses around us. So then, let us rid ourselves of everything that gets in the way, and of the sin which holds on to us so tightly, and let us run with determination the race that lies before us. 2 Let us keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from beginning to end. He did not give up because of the cross! On the contrary, because of the joy that was waiting for him, he thought nothing of the disgrace of dying on the cross, and he is now seated at the right side of God's throne.

3 Think of what he went through; how he put up with so much hatred from sinners! So do not let yourselves become discouraged and give up. 4 For in your struggle against sin you have not yet had to resist to the point of being killed. 5 Have you forgotten the encouraging words which God speaks to you as his children?

“My child, pay attention when the Lord corrects you,
and do not be discouraged when he rebukes you.
6 Because the Lord corrects everyone he loves,
and punishes everyone he accepts as a child.”

7 Endure what you suffer as being a father's punishment; your suffering shows that God is treating you as his children. Was there ever a child who was not punished by his father? 8 If you are not punished, as all his children are, it means you are not real children, but bastards. 9 In the case of our human fathers, they punished us and we respected them. How much more, then, should we submit to our spiritual Father and live! 10 Our human fathers punished us for a short time, as it seemed right to them; but God does it for our own good, so that we may share his holiness. 11 When we are punished, it seems to us at the time something to make us sad, not glad. Later, however, those who have been disciplined by such punishment reap the peaceful reward of a righteous life.

Instructions and Warnings
12 Lift up your tired hands, then, and strengthen your trembling knees! 13 Keep walking on straight paths, so that the lame foot may not be disabled, but instead be healed.

14 Try to be at peace with everyone, and try to live a holy life, because no one will see the Lord without it. 15 Guard against turning back from the grace of God. Let no one become like a bitter plant that grows up and causes many troubles with its poison. 16 Let no one become immoral or unspiritual like Esau, who for a single meal sold his rights as the older son. 17 Afterward, you know, he wanted to receive his father's blessing; but he was turned back, because he could not find any way to change what he had done, even though in tears he looked for it.[a]

18 You have not come, as the people of Israel came, to what you can feel, to Mount Sinai with its blazing fire, the darkness and the gloom, the storm, 19 the blast of a trumpet, and the sound of a voice. When the people heard the voice, they begged not to hear another word, 20 because they could not bear the order which said, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.” 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling and afraid!”

22 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, with its thousands of angels. 23 You have come to the joyful gathering of God's first-born, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, who is the judge of all people, and to the spirits of good people made perfect. 24 You have come to Jesus, who arranged the new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that promises much better things than does the blood of Abel.

25 Be careful, then, and do not refuse to hear him who speaks. Those who refused to hear the one who gave the divine message on earth did not escape. How much less shall we escape, then, if we turn away from the one who speaks from heaven! 26 His voice shook the earth at that time, but now he has promised, “I will once more shake not only the earth but heaven as well.” 27 The words “once more” plainly show that the created things will be shaken and removed, so that the things that cannot be shaken will remain.

28 Let us be thankful, then, because we receive a kingdom that cannot be shaken. Let us be grateful and worship God in a way that will please him, with reverence and awe; 29 because our God is indeed a destroying fire.

Our LDS friends read sexual relations into verse 9 like our Father and Mother in producing us.

But, from context of the New Testament, God is our spiritual Father by rebirth.
the
In King James, it has "father of spirits" which they take to mean what they believe.

You have again shown how a different translation can move the goal post of what the writer wanted to say and what he meant. Our "spiritual Father" is light years away in meaning from "the Father of spirits". I hope you feel uncomfortable with that change in the translation wording, and the corresponding change in the meaning of that scripture. That is the danger in having hundreds of different translations, because all you have to do is search the different translations to find the one that fits your agenda.

You found a perfect example.
 
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Peter1000

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In answer to this thread, all become children of God when they are spiritually reborn.

LDS - what do the writers of the NT meant when they say we are children of God.
In answer to this thread, there is also a Father of our spirits, which we should subject ourselves to. IOW we have a father of our flesh and blood, and we have a Father of our spirits. We are spirit children of the Father of spirits.

We capitalize the Father of our spirits, because it is God.
 
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Jamesone5

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The bible does fit our construct, in this case, as well as it fits your, because it is not too helpful when it comes to how God created.
1) Did he take existing materials to create a new earth?
2) Did he create new materials out of nothing for a new earth?

You can believe what you will on this subject and I can not refute you, accept to say that the bible does not help you or I.
I will however, tell you why I believe he created from existing material.

In Genesis 1:2 it says that the earth was without form, and was void.
I would think that if God created the earth out of nothing, he would have created it nice and round and beautiful, like it is today, rather than without form, and then later created a new beautiful earth.

If God took existing material without form and created a new earth, that makes more sense to me.

But again, the bible is not clear how God created. So I would never push the point.

But again, the bible is not clear how God created. So I would never push the point----Peter1000

But yet you are "pushing the point" in telling me how it was created.

Let us leave that to God how He created, OK?

And do I detect a little white flag from you over what we were previously arguing? At least be honest with yourself here.
 
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Peter1000

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But again, the bible is not clear how God created. So I would never push the point----Peter1000

But yet you are "pushing the point" in telling me how it was created.

Let us leave that to God how He created, OK?

And do I detect a little white flag from you over what we were previously arguing? At least be honest with yourself here.
I did not tell you how it was created. I told you why I lean toward creating from existing material.

As I said, if you want to tell me why you lean toward creating out of nothing, I would be willing to listen, and not argue the point.

Not sure what topic I am puting up a white flag about. Was it about Hebrews 12:7-9? If so, sorry, no white flag. We have not discussed seriously Hebrews 12:9 yet, you have skirted all around it but no discussion about it. Look forward to that discussion.
 
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Peter1000

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Obviously you have been conditioned to argue, even if you are not right.

So again, who is "the Father of spirits"? We are not talking about which sons are legitimate and which are not. Who is "the Father of spirits"?----Peter1000

So now you have 1: men have spirits,+ 1: God is the Father of those spirits in all of us---Peter1000

You are now admitting that God is NOT the Father of all spirits as your weird addition problem suggests.

Figure it out from there.
Again, no. God is the Father of all spirits. But as those spirits do as he asks, He embrases them. As those spirits do not do as he asks, he does not embrace them, they go off to another place away from him and are not his sons or daughters any longer.

So he started out as their Father, but he had to give them up for continual denial and rejection from some of His spirit children. Both the Father of spirits, and those spirits that are lost, end up losing.

Do you see the difference. You are saying that some of these spirits were never his sons. Therefore to say that God is the Father of spirits is incorrect.
This is not the case. God is the Father of spirits. Some reject him, so he rejects them as his sons. End of story. A great loss.
 
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Peter1000

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The Apostle Paul also, in writing to Titus, has used a line of the poet Epimenides: The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. Titus 1:12 Half of which line was afterwards adopted by Callimachus. It is not surprising that a literal rendering of the words into Latin should fail to preserve the metre, seeing that Homer when translated into the same language is scarcely intelligible even in prose. In another epistle Paul quotes a line of Menander: Evil communications corrupt good manners. And when he is arguing with the Athenians upon the Areopagus he calls Aratus as a witness citing from him the words For we are also his offspring; Acts 17:28 in Greek τοῦ γὰρ καὶ γένος ἐσμεν, the close of a heroic verse. And as if this were not enough, that leader of the Christian army, that unvanquished pleader for the cause of Christ, skilfully turns a chance inscription into a proof of the faith. Acts 17:22 For he had learned from the true David to wrench the sword of the enemy out of his hand and with his own blade to cut off the head of the arrogant Goliath
CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 70 (Jerome)

These take and sanctify yourself with them and bestow on them, that they may shave their heads; and all will know that the things which they have heard of you are false, but that you yourself also walk keeping the law. Acts 21:20-24 And so for the good of those who were under the law, he trode under foot for a while the strict view which he had expressed: For I through the law am dead unto the law that I may live unto God; Galatians 2:19 and was driven to shave his head, and be purified according to the law and pay his vows after the Mosaic rites in the Temple. Do you ask also where for the good of those who were utterly ignorant of the law of God, he himself became as if without law? Read the introduction to his sermon at Athens where heathen wickedness was flourishing: As I passed by, he says, I saw your idols and an altar on which was written: To the unknown God; and when he had thus started from their superstition, as if he himself also had been without law, under the cloke of that profane inscription he introduced the faith of Christ, saying: What therefore you ignorantly worship, that declare I unto you. And after a little, as if he had known nothing whatever of the Divine law, he chose to bring forward a verse of a heathen poet rather than a saying of Moses or Christ, saying: As some also of your own poets have said: for we are also His offspring. And when he had thus approached them with their own authorities, which they could not reject, thus confirming the truth by things false, he added and said: Since then we are the offspring of God we ought not to think that the Godhead is like to gold or silver or stone sculptured by the art and device of man. But to the weak he became weak, when, by way of permission, not of command, he allowed those who could not contain themselves to return together again, 1 Corinthians 7:5 or when he fed the Corinthians with milk and not with meat, and says that he was with them in weakness and fear and much trembling.
CHURCH FATHERS: Conference 17 (John Cassian)

Very good evidence that we are the offspring of God. Thank you.
 
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Jamesone5

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Very good evidence that we are the offspring of God. Thank you.
As those spirits do not do as he asks, he does not embrace them, they go off to another place away from him and are not his sons or daughters any longer---Peter1000

How could they be no longer his sons or daughters any longer?
As you claim God fathered all the spirits----do we then cancel out those spirits He fathers? He forgets that He once fathered them as do these spirits? What? nobody is their true father, in your construct?

You set yourself up for traps all the time in this Mormon weird way of explaining your construct,

You have just explained how YOUR version of Hebrews 12:9 will NOT work.
 
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He is the way

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As those spirits do not do as he asks, he does not embrace them, they go off to another place away from him and are not his sons or daughters any longer---Peter1000

How could they be no longer his sons or daughters any longer?
As you claim God fathered all the spirits----do we then cancel out those spirits He fathers? He forgets that He once fathered them as do these spirits? What? nobody is their true father, in your construct?

You set yourself up for traps all the time in this Mormon weird way of explaining your construct,

You have just explained how YOUR version of Hebrews 12:9 will NOT work.
(Old Testament | Malachi 2:10)

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?


(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

(New Testament | Matthew 23:8 - 10)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
 
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Jamesone5

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(Old Testament | Malachi 2:10)

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?


(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

(New Testament | Matthew 23:8 - 10)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
I have to laugh at you insistence that God literally fathered all of us.
10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

CREATED us, not fathered us. Just like Genesis says.


(New Testament | Matthew 23:8 - 10)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ

Where or where is this fathered in the spirit assumption?

Where is even the assumption that Christ is our brother----according to the Mormon construct? All ye are brethren----it says it very plainly.

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High

Children in the spirit? where does it say that? He was referring to these human gods He still created.

You get a zero in proving anything to even attempt to match up with Mormons assumptions
 
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He is the way

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I have to laugh at you insistence that God literally fathered all of us.
10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

CREATED us, not fathered us. Just like Genesis says.


(New Testament | Matthew 23:8 - 10)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ

Where or where is this fathered in the spirit assumption?

Where is even the assumption that Christ is our brother----according to the Mormon construct? All ye are brethren----it says it very plainly.

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High

Children in the spirit? where does it say that? He was referring to these human gods He still created.

You get a zero in proving anything to even attempt to match up with Mormons assumptions
So why is God called the Father of spirits:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:9)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Of course He is the Father of spirits. But then you will come up with some reason that He isn't even if it goes against the Bible.
 
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Jamesone5

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So why is God called the Father of spirits:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:9)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Of course He is the Father of spirits. But then you will come up with some reason that He isn't even if it goes against the Bible.
No I will use the Bible to dispute your assumptions.

Hebrews 12:7-8
7If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening,of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

And what about those who are illegitimate and NOT sons?---God is supposedly the Father of All spirits in your very weak assumption- based interpretation of the Bible.

You always cherry-pick that one verse to try to make you case as if the verses before are meant to be ignored. GOD deals with you as with sons---NOT that He is our father of our spirits.

And verse 9 certainly does not say anything about God being the father of OUR spirits, does it?

Nothing but assumptions is what your Church builds you construct upon. And then, you Mormons try to make the case that you are in the One True Chruch.
 
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Jamesone5

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Again, no. God is the Father of all spirits. But as those spirits do as he asks, He embrases them. As those spirits do not do as he asks, he does not embrace them, they go off to another place away from him and are not his sons or daughters any longer.

So he started out as their Father, but he had to give them up for continual denial and rejection from some of His spirit children. Both the Father of spirits, and those spirits that are lost, end up losing.

Do you see the difference. You are saying that some of these spirits were never his sons. Therefore to say that God is the Father of spirits is incorrect.
This is not the case. God is the Father of spirits. Some reject him, so he rejects them as his sons. End of story. A great loss.


I noticed something in going through the posts:

We believe it is the breath of life that give all created things, life. We believe this breath of life was given to Adam and to the plants and animals and all creation. Another word for
"the breath of life" is "our spirits". ---Peter1000----post #64

Here you admit that our spirits were part of the creation process .
While here:


The sons of God were the offspring of God and were his spirit children which He was with before the earth was made. The sons of God were just that, literal sons of God.----Peter1000
Or:
We are spirit children of the Father of spirits.---Peter1000--post #104

you argue that God fathered our spirits

Seems I have to follow your own confusion and try to make sense of it.
You obviously do not see how your construct does not make any kind of sense..
 
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He is the way

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No I will use the Bible to dispute your assumptions.

Hebrews 12:7-8
7If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening,of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

And what about those who are illegitimate and NOT sons?---God is supposedly the Father of All spirits in your very weak assumption- based interpretation of the Bible.

You always cherry-pick that one verse to try to make you case as if the verses before are meant to be ignored. GOD deals with you as with sons---NOT that He is our father of our spirits.

And verse 9 certainly does not say anything about God being the father of OUR spirits, does it?

Nothing but assumptions is what your Church builds you construct upon. And then, you Mormons try to make the case that you are in the One True Chruch.
Well we are all brethren to Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | Matthew 23:8)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

So are you saying Jesus is illegitimate? Never the less we can become illegitimate through disobedience as the scripture states.
 
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Jamesone5

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Well we are all brethren to Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | Matthew 23:8)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

So are you saying Jesus is illegitimate? Never the less we can become illegitimate through disobedience as the scripture states.


Ye are all brethren------NOT ye are all brethren with ME.
 
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Jamesone5

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And that is supposed to make a difference? Well it doesn't. We ARE all brethren.
Makes all the difference in the world.

But then how would you know? An obedient Mormon who is always reading the Bible with assumptions.
 
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Peter1000

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I noticed something in going through the posts:

We believe it is the breath of life that give all created things, life. We believe this breath of life was given to Adam and to the plants and animals and all creation. Another word for
"the breath of life" is "our spirits". ---Peter1000----post #64

Here you admit that our spirits were part of the creation process .
While here:


The sons of God were the offspring of God and were his spirit children which He was with before the earth was made. The sons of God were just that, literal sons of God.----Peter1000
Or:
We are spirit children of the Father of spirits.---Peter1000--post #104

you argue that God fathered our spirits

Seems I have to follow your own confusion and try to make sense of it.
You obviously do not see how your construct does not make any kind of sense..

I do not admit that our spirits are part of the creation process of our flesh bodies. The breath of life = our spirits, has existed for as long as God has existed, for He breathed into Adam his breath of life and he became a living soul. This poetic verbiage is metaphoric for saying: God gave Adam his spirit (which has existed for as long as God existed) and he became a living soul.

This is what we believe, I know you do not believe this, and its OK, you will learn sooner or later.

My construct is perfect. It just does not fit your agenda. Sorry. God is the Father of our spirits, so these sons of God are in their spirit form in heaven listening to what their Father is telling them, then they shouted for joy.

There is no confusion, except in your own mind.
 
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Makes all the difference in the world.

But then how would you know? An obedient Mormon who is always reading the Bible with assumptions.
You said: "Makes all the difference in the world." No it doesn't. You are grasping at straws but nothing is there. You are denying reality when it is right there in front of you.
 
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