Total depravity

bling · Jun 1, 2020

Hammster said:
It does, actually. Death is the result of sin. Death came to all men which means all have sinned. And since death is because of sin, and babies die, that means the sin is in them.

The "all have sinned" does not include unborn babies, but death as you say is: "the effects of the fall", which means it does not have to be the effect of every unborn child being a sinner.

Hammster · Jun 1, 2020

bling said:
The "all have sinned" does not include unborn babies, but death as you say is: "the effects of the fall", which means it does not have to be the effect of every unborn child being a sinner.

At what point do they become sinners, and why?

Gup20 · Jun 1, 2020

Hammster said:
The premise that Adam’s judgement will be repealed.

Let me lay out my thought process, and we'll see if it changes your mind. {{takes reeeeeally deep breath}}

[Rom 5:12-21 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

So here we see that because of one man's sin, death (the just punishment for sin) entered the world. This implies there was no death before Adam sinned, and that the death that we all experience and that the whole universe experiences is the result of that one, universal judgement. We know that death was a universal judgment because, all of the people between Adam (who sinned) and Moses (when the law was given) experienced the judgement, even though they didn't eat the fruit of the tree, and their individual sin was not being imputed to them because there was no law.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Here we see a series of contrasting statements. It is meant to show us how the free gift (righteousness or salvation) differs from the original judgment. By one man and one sin, many were judged (death). By one man grace came to many. Judgement covers ONE transgression. The free gift covers many transgressions.

next we see a series of statements which tells us how the judgement and free gift are similar:

17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

So we see that judgement reigned through one just as righteousness reigned through One. We see that one sin condemned every single human being. In the same one one act of righteousness justified every single human being to life. Remember this is showing us how they are similar... if we say that the justification to life in this verse is not truly to ALL, then we must say that condemnation to death in the first half of the verse was not truly to all. So we must reconcile that because we know that ALL are condenmed to death, this verse says that the same ALL are justified to life because of righteousness. Surly this doesn't mean universalism does it? No - look at what it says next:

20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here we see that the law came so that the universal one sin, and the universal death we all now experience would increase to many individual sins.

Pair this with the notion that the law supports Adam's system of inheriting judgment:

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Ezekiel 18:1-3, 20, 30
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, 'The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 ... 20 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. ... 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.

These two passages would seem to be contradictory if we didn't know that there was not merely one judgement, but that there was a second judgement - the great white throne judgement. Numbers, in the Torah, speaks to the law and what now is. However, Ezekiel is future prophecy. It's talking about something in the future. A time when each is judged in an individual judgement.

[Rev 20:11-15 NASB] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So here is the penultimate question; Has Adam's judgement occured already? (yes) Has the great white throne judgement occurred already? (no) So is the death man experiences now the result of Adam's judgement, or a result of the great white throne judgement?

It is the result of the Adam's judgement.

[1Co 15:21-22 NASB] 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Here we have the Bible's most specific treatise on resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15. It agress with Romans 5 in making a direct comparison between the universal, corporate death that came through Adam, and the resurrection to life that comes through Christ.

So I ask you -- how many times will the believer be resurrected? Which judgement was universal, and which jugement was individual? From which judgement - Adam's or the Great White Throne judgement will Christ's universal resurrection cover? Let me remind you of Romans 5:

16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Is the free gift covering the one transgression or the many transgressions? So does't the righteousness we inherit from Christ for our forgiveness... forgiveness from the sins committed under the law which has increased our sins to many... is that forgiveness covering Adam's judgement or the individual Great White Throne judgement?

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Knowing that Adam's judgement is universal -- even over those who didn't partake in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... and knowing that the resurrection we will all experience is universal ... both sinners and saints alike will experience resurrection and then both sinners and saints will face the individual judgement of the Great White Throne judgement, how can you not believe that Adam's judgement is not repealed?

If Adam's judgement is not repealed, how are sinners who will be resurrected to face eternal judgement and everlasting contempt resurrected? How do they get a right to come back to life?

bling · Jun 1, 2020

Hammster said:
At what point do they become sinners, and why?

When they are mature adults, since mature adults are the people being addressed in scripture and not little children.

Hammster · Jun 1, 2020

Gup20 said:
Let me lay out my thought process, and we'll see if it changes your mind. {{takes reeeeeally deep breath}}

[Rom 5:12-21 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

So here we see that because of one man's sin, death (the just punishment for sin) entered the world. This implies there was no death before Adam sinned, and that the death that we all experience and that the whole universe experiences is the result of that one, universal judgement. We know that death was a universal judgment because, all of the people between Adam (who sinned) and Moses (when the law was given) experienced the judgement, even though they didn't eat the fruit of the tree, and their individual sin was not being imputed to them because there was no law.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Here we see a series of contrasting statements. It is meant to show us how the free gift (righteousness or salvation) differs from the original judgment. By one man and one sin, many were judged (death). By one man grace came to many. Judgement covers ONE transgression. The free gift covers many transgressions.

next we see a series of statements which tells us how the judgement and free gift are similar:

17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

So we see that judgement reigned through one just as righteousness reigned through One. We see that one sin condemned every single human being. In the same one one act of righteousness justified every single human being to life. Remember this is showing us how they are similar... if we say that the justification to life in this verse is not truly to ALL, then we must say that condemnation to death in the first half of the verse was not truly to all. So we must reconcile that because we know that ALL are condenmed to death, this verse says that the same ALL are justified to life because of righteousness. Surly this doesn't mean universalism does it? No - look at what it says next:

20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here we see that the law came so that the universal one sin, and the universal death we all now experience would increase to many individual sins.

Pair this with the notion that the law supports Adam's system of inheriting judgment:

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Ezekiel 18:1-3, 20, 30
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, 'The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 ... 20 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. ... 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.

These two passages would seem to be contradictory if we didn't know that there was not merely one judgement, but that there was a second judgement - the great white throne judgement. Numbers, in the Torah, speaks to the law and what now is. However, Ezekiel is future prophecy. It's talking about something in the future. A time when each is judged in an individual judgement.

[Rev 20:11-15 NASB] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So here is the penultimate question; Has Adam's judgement occured already? (yes) Has the great white throne judgement occurred already? (no) So is the death man experiences now the result of Adam's judgement, or a result of the great white throne judgement?

It is the result of the Adam's judgement.

[1Co 15:21-22 NASB] 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Here we have the Bible's most specific treatise on resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15. It agress with Romans 5 in making a direct comparison between the universal, corporate death that came through Adam, and the resurrection to life that comes through Christ.

So I ask you -- how many times will the believer be resurrected? Which judgement was universal, and which jugement was individual? From which judgement - Adam's or the Great White Throne judgement will Christ's universal resurrection cover? Let me remind you of Romans 5:

16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Is the free gift covering the one transgression or the many transgressions? So does't the righteousness we inherit from Christ for our forgiveness... forgiveness from the sins committed under the law which has increased our sins to many... is that forgiveness covering Adam's judgement or the individual Great White Throne judgement?

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Knowing that Adam's judgement is universal -- even over those who didn't partake in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... and knowing that the resurrection we will all experience is universal ... both sinners and saints alike will experience resurrection and then both sinners and saints will face the individual judgement of the Great White Throne judgement, how can you not believe that Adam's judgement is not repealed?

If Adam's judgement is not repealed, how are sinners who will be resurrected to face eternal judgement and everlasting contempt resurrected? How do they get a right to come back to life?

I appreciate you taking the time. But your hermeneutics aren’t that great. You are arbitrarily cutting and pasting scripture together to make a point.

Hammster · Jun 1, 2020

bling said:
When they are mature adults, since mature adults are the people being addressed in scripture and not little children.

Okay. Please show where it says only mature adults are being addressed, and the definition of a mature adult.

dms1972 · Jun 1, 2020

I have lost track of how the discussion got onto the fate of unborn babies.

dms1972 · Jun 1, 2020

renniks said:
Sounds like he's actually an arminian. If he offers to save all, but some refuse, that's in no way calvinism. Wesleyans would probably agree with that version, as do I.

Geisler called himself a "moderate calvinist". I suppose in some aspects his theology overlaps with Arminianism.

Hammster · Jun 1, 2020

dms1972 said:
I have lost track of how the discussion got onto the fate of unborn babies.

It goes to the effect of the fall.

Hammster · Jun 1, 2020

dms1972 said:
Geisler called himself a "moderate calvinist". I suppose in some aspects his theology overlaps with Arminianism.

He was not really a Calvinist in any true sense.

Chris0699 · Jun 1, 2020

Hi everyone, sorry to interrupt. I believe total depravity is biblical. I was hoping that someone could ask God to unharden my heart so that I can believe the Gospel. Thank you.

JLB777 · Jun 2, 2020

Hammster said:
And Noah was part of that group. But he found grace.

Noah was a just man who walked with God.

This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:9

It’s undeniable.

JLB

JLB777 · Jun 2, 2020

Chris0699 said:
Hi everyone, sorry to interrupt. I believe total depravity is biblical. I was hoping that someone could ask God to unharden my heart so that I can believe the Gospel. Thank you.

Praying for you.

Hammster · Jun 2, 2020

JLB777 said:
Noah was a just man who walked with God.

This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:9

It’s undeniable.

JLB

After he found favor with God.

Chris0699 · Jun 2, 2020

JLB777 said:
Praying for you.

Thank you.

bling · Jun 2, 2020

Chris0699 said:
Hi everyone, sorry to interrupt. I believe total depravity is biblical. I was hoping that someone could ask God to unharden my heart so that I can believe the Gospel. Thank you.

Do not blame God for not “doing” something, because God (like any Loving father) is doing all He can to help you. You maybe in the pigsty of life, similar to the Prodigal Son, but that helps you to turn to God for help. You are asking for our help which is a wonderful start, but only God can really help you.

You seem to already realize (believe/trust/have faith in) God’s power to provide you with unbelievable huge wonderful gifts, but am I correct about this?

Are you willing to humble yourself to the degree of accepting pure undeserved charity? Remember the lowliest person on earth can accept pure charity, so this is a humbling activity and people will do almost anything to avoid having to accept pure charity.

Are you tired of fighting against God, seeing Him as keeping you from doing something you enjoy doing (the perceived pleasures of sin are a draw)? All you need to do is wimp out, give up and surrender to whom you have been fighting with. God at this point in your life is not asking you to join His team or family, but just to be willing to accept His help even if you still do not like Him.

God is wanting and willing to forgive you completely, but He will not force His forgiveness on you, so you just have to accept God’s forgiveness (Love) as pure undeserved charity and when you do you will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love for God and others. (Jesus teaches us “…he who is forgiven much Loves much…”)

bling · Jun 2, 2020

Hammster said:
Okay. Please show where it says only mature adults are being addressed, and the definition of a mature adult.

As we both agree “all” does not always mean every human. We have to look at the context, so “all” can refer to the “elect” since for the most part the letters in the New Testament (NT)are addressed to Christians. When the (NT) authors say: we, us, you, all, everyone, whosoever, those, and even whole world, he gives no exceptions like ( saying something like: not to include unborn babies, babies, children, mentally challenged, or some other exception).

The way we can know “mature adults” are being addressed is because of what is being asked of those being addressed like: believe, repent, confess, teach, live like Christ, be baptized and so on, which are things the mentally challenged and babies cannot do.

Hammster · Jun 2, 2020

bling said:
As we both agree “all” does not always mean every human. We have to look at the context, so “all” can refer to the “elect” since for the most part the letters in the New Testament (NT)are addressed to Christians. When the (NT) authors say: we, us, you, all, everyone, whosoever, those, and even whole world, he gives no exceptions like ( saying something like: not to include unborn babies, babies, children, mentally challenged, or some other exception).

The way we can know “mature adults” are being addressed is because of what is being asked of those being addressed like: believe, repent, confess, teach, live like Christ, be baptized and so on, which are things the mentally challenged and babies cannot do.

I’m still waiting for the definition of a mature adult.

JLB777 · Jun 3, 2020

Hammster said:
After he found favor with God.

Noah found favor with God because he was just, and walked uprightly.

Unless you believe he found favor with God because he was sinful, and corrupt.

JLB

Hammster · Jun 3, 2020

JLB777 said:
Noah found favor with God because he was just, and walked uprightly.

Unless you believe he found favor with God because he was sinful, and corrupt.

JLB

We all find favor when we are sinful and corrupt.

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