LDS when and how did God become the father of our spirits

Peter1000 · May 31, 2020

my mistake again.

Peter1000 · May 31, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
but you are just being ignorant. ---Peter1000

changed to:

You feigned ignorance to reflect away from not being able to answer.---Peter1000

Once again you think you can speak for me---I did not "feign ignorance", even though you tried to cover your tracks.

Here is the relevant part of the post is question:

To us, it means that these sons were spirit children of God that he created before the earth was peopled. It is as good an interpretation as there is, and makes sense in the way it connects heaven and earth together, being in heaven before and shouting for joy that the earth was being prepared for our earthly mortal experience-----Peter1000

There is you assumption right there. To Mormons, These sons were spirit children of God. You are basing everything on a Mormon assumption.

And I seem to be able to copy and paste what you said--why can't you?

Can you find a verse where it say these sons of God were sprit Children as your construct only assumes?

No, I can not find one verse that says that the sons of God recorded Job, are the spirit children of God.

But there are many scriptures that talk about God is the Father of our spirits, and that we are the offspring of God and we are his children, that sometime if your able to say 1 + 1 = 2, you will easily find the doctrine in the bible.

Lets try it:
Numbers 16:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

1+ Here is Moses pleading with God, and he just does not call him God, but Moses calls Him
O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh. ("flesh" in this context means "men")
To know that all men and women have "spirits" see Luke 8:54-55.

Acts 17:29 King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

1: Paul is now teaching us that we are the offspring of God. ("offspring" in this context means we came from Him, we are his children)
To know we are his offspring and are his children see also Psalms 82:6 and Romans 8:16-17.

So now you have 1: men have spirits,+ 1: God is the Father of those spirits in all of us
and that equals 2. So from the scriptures we can interpret "the sons of God" were spirit children of God before the earth was formed.

There are a lot of scriptures having to do with the "spirit" of man, and God being the Father of those spirits. The interpretation is that we are literal offspring of God and we are his literal children. Not difficult.

Peter1000 · May 31, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
1. As regards His greatness, therefore, it is not possible to know God, for it is impossible that the Father can be measured; but as regards His love (for this it is which leads us to God by His Word), when we obey Him, we do always learn that there is so great a God, and that it is He who by Himself has established, and selected, and adorned, and contains all things; and among the all things, both ourselves and this our world. We also then were made, along with those things which are contained by Him. And this is He of whom the Scripture says, And God formed man, taking clay of the earth, and breathed into his face the breath of life. Genesis 2:7 It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed40s, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; Genesis 1:26 He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world.

Justin Martyr a saint in many churches, in his discussion with the Jew Trypho in 140 ad, says that God did not create from nothing. So by 30 years after the apostles, there was a strong belief that God created things that were in chaos into unchaos.

Peter1000 · May 31, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
The Sacred Writings are entirely concerned with the relations of man to God, and of God's dealings with man, before and after the Fall. Two accounts of his origin are given in the Old Testament. On the sixth and last day of the creation "God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him" (Genesis 1:27); and "the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7; so Sirach 17:1: "God created man of the earth, and made him after his own image"). By these texts the special creation of man is established, his high dignity and his spiritual nature. As to his material part, the Scripture declares that it is formed by God from the "slime of the earth". This becomes a "living soul" and fashioned to the "image of God" by the inspiration of the "breath of life", which makes man man and differentiates him from the brute.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Man

We believe it is the breath of life that give all created things, life. We believe this breath of life was given to Adam and to the plants and animals and all creation. Another word for
"the breath of life" is "our spirits". It is the spirit within us that gives life to our flesh bodies. Take the spirit away and the body will die. Bring the spirit back to the body and the body will live again. Many scriptures testify of this doctrine.

Even the animals have a spirit. If an animal is alive, it is because of the spirit within it. Take that spirit away and the animal dies. We believe the difference between man and the brute is intelligence. Man has far more intelligence than the brute.

Interesting discussion. Thanks

Jamesone5 · May 31, 2020

Peter1000 said:
No, I can not find one verse that says that the sons of God recorded Job, are the spirit children of God.

But there are many scriptures that talk about God is the Father of our spirits, and that we are the offspring of God and we are his children, that sometime if your able to say 1 + 1 = 2, you will easily find the doctrine in the bible.

Lets try it:
Numbers 16:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

1+ Here is Moses pleading with God, and he just does not call him God, but Moses calls Him
O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh. ("flesh" in this context means "men")
To know that all men and women have "spirits" see Luke 8:54-55.

Acts 17:29 King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

1: Paul is now teaching us that we are the offspring of God. ("offspring" in this context means we came from Him, we are his children)
To know we are his offspring and are his children see also Psalms 82:6 and Romans 8:16-17.

So now you have 1: men have spirits,+ 1: God is the Father of those spirits in all of us
and that equals 2. So from the scriptures we can interpret "the sons of God" were spirit children of God before the earth was formed.

There are a lot of scriptures having to do with the "spirit" of man, and God being the Father of those spirits. The interpretation is that we are literal offspring of God and we are his literal children. Not difficult.

Peter1000 said:
my mistake again.

Oh, you want to argue about our God supposedly being the father of our spirits now. You seem to have backed off from the debate over these sons of God.

God is the Father of those spirits in all of us---Peter1000

Lets's see

Acts 17:29 King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Was Paul talking about God being the Father of our spirits here--as you suggest?

or even here?

Numbers 16:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

That verse seems to be missing the word Father

Not going to look up Psalms 82:16 or your Romans verses as God is NOT the Father of our spirits.

Seems like you are trying to prove 1 +1 == 3 or some other number.

Peter1000 · May 31, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Oh, you want to argue about our God supposedly being the father of our spirits now. You seem to have backed off from the debate over these sons of God.

No, you just missed it in the 2nd to last paragraph. Let me sum it up again. Since we know that we are the offspring of God and that God is the Father of our spirits, we are prepared to make this interpretation of the scriptures in Job.

The sons of God were the offspring of God and were his spirit children which He was with before the earth was made. The sons of God were just that, literal sons of God.

That verse seems to be missing the word Father

OK, let me give you a scripture that uses the word "Father".
Hebrews 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The title of God the Father can be said many ways.
1) just God
2) just Father
3) God the Father
If the scripture says God, is the God of the spirits of all flesh, a normal person would not have a problem knowing that it is God the Father is the Father of our spirits. In any case you now know from Hebrews who the Father of our spirits is.

I will give you the Psalms and the Romans scripture:
Psalm 82:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Romans 8:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And again now we know who the "sons of God" were. They were the spirit children of God the Father that he was with before the earth was finished.

He is the way · May 31, 2020

Redundant quote

He is the way · May 31, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
Your proof text is not a fall upwards.

Genesis 3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Beginning of Sin
3 The snake was the most clever of all the wild animals that the Lord God had made. The snake spoke to the woman and said, “Woman, did God really tell you that you must not eat from any tree in the garden?”

2 The woman answered the snake, “No, we can eat fruit from the trees in the garden. 3 But there is one tree we must not eat from. God told us, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden. You must not even touch that tree, or you will die.’”

4 But the snake said to the woman, “You will not die. 5 God knows that if you eat the fruit from that tree you will learn about good and evil, and then you will be like God!”

6 The woman could see that the tree was beautiful and the fruit looked so good to eat. She also liked the idea that it would make her wise. So she took some of the fruit from the tree and ate it. Her husband was there with her, so she gave him some of the fruit, and he ate it.

7 Then it was as if their eyes opened, and they saw things differently. They saw that they were naked. So they got some fig leaves, sewed them together, and wore them for clothes.

8 During the cool part of the day, the Lord God was walking in the garden. The man and the woman heard him, and they hid among the trees in the garden. 9 The Lord God called to the man and said, “Where are you?”

10 The man said, “I heard you walking in the garden, and I was afraid. I was naked, so I hid.”

11 God said to the man, “Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat fruit from that special tree? I told you not to eat from that tree!”

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me gave me fruit from that tree. So I ate it.”

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What have you done?”

She said, “The snake tricked me, so I ate the fruit.”

14 So the Lord God said to the snake,

“You did this very bad thing,
so bad things will happen to you.
It will be worse for you
than for any other animal.
You must crawl on your belly
and eat dust all the days of your life.
15 I will make you and the woman enemies to each other.
Your children and her children will be enemies.
You will bite her child’s foot,
but he will crush your head.”

16 Then God said to the woman,

“I will cause you to have much trouble
when you are pregnant.
And when you give birth to children,
you will have much pain.
You will want your husband very much,
but he will rule over you.”[a]

17 Then God said to the man,

“I commanded you not to eat from that tree.
But you listened to your wife and ate from it.
So I will curse the ground because of you.
You will have to work hard all your life for the food the ground produces.
18 The ground will grow thorns and weeds for you.
And you will have to eat the plants that grow wild in the fields.
19 You will work hard for your food,
until your face is covered with sweat.
You will work hard until the day you die,
and then you will become dust again.
I used dust to make you,
and when you die, you will become dust again.”

20 Adam[c] named his wife Eve.[d] He gave her this name because Eve would be the mother of everyone who ever lived.

21 The Lord God used animal skins and made some clothes for the man and his wife. Then he put the clothes on them.

22 The Lord God said, “Look, the man has become like us—he knows about good and evil. And now the man might take the fruit from the tree of life. If the man eats that fruit, he will live forever.”

23 So the Lord God forced the man out of the Garden of Eden to work the ground he was made from. 24 God forced the man to leave the garden. Then he put Cherub angels and a sword of fire at the entrance to the garden to protect it. The sword flashed around and around, guarding the way to the tree of life.

If man had not eaten of the tree there would be no test because man would not have known good and evil. A Savior would not have been needed and the plan of salvation would have been thwarted.

He is the way · May 31, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
Philippians 3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Christ Is More Important Than Anything
3 And now, my brothers and sisters, be filled with joy in the Lord. It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again. I want to be sure that you are prepared.

2 Be careful of the dogs—those men whose work does only harm. They want to cut on everyone who isn’t circumcised. 3 But we are the ones who have the true circumcision—we who worship God through his Spirit. We don’t trust in ourselves or anything we can do. We take pride only in Christ Jesus. 4 Even if I am able to trust in myself, still I don’t do it. If anyone else thinks they have a reason to trust in themselves, they should know that I have a greater reason for doing so. 5 I was circumcised on the eighth day after my birth. I am from the people of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin. I am a true Jew, and so were my parents. The law was very important to me. That is why I became a Pharisee. 6 I was so eager to defend my religion that I persecuted the church. And no one could find fault with the way I obeyed the Law of Moses.

7 At one time all these things were important to me. But because of Christ, I decided that they are worth nothing. 8 Not only these things, but now I think that all things are worth nothing compared with the greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of Christ, I lost all these things, and now I know that they are all worthless trash. All I want now is Christ. 9 I want to belong to him. In Christ I am right with God, but my being right does not come from following the law. It comes from God through faith. God uses my faith in Christ to make me right with him. 10 All I want is to know Christ and the power that raised him from death. I want to share in his sufferings and be like him even in his death. 11 Then there is hope that I myself will somehow be raised from death.

Trying to Reach the Goal
12 I don’t mean that I am exactly what God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal. But I continue trying to reach it and make it mine. That’s what Christ Jesus wants me to do. It is the reason he made me his. 13 Brothers and sisters, I know that I still have a long way to go. But there is one thing I do: I forget what is in the past and try as hard as I can to reach the goal before me. 14 I keep running hard toward the finish line to get the prize that is mine because God has called me through Christ Jesus to life up there in heaven.

15 All of us who have grown to be spiritually mature should think this way too. And if there is any of this that you don’t agree with, God will make it clear to you. 16 But we should continue following the truth we already have.

17 Brothers and sisters, join together in following my example. Also, learn by watching those who are living the way we showed you. 18 There are many who live like enemies of the cross of Christ. I have often told you about them. And it makes me cry to tell you about them now. 19 The way they live is leading them to destruction. They have replaced God with their own desires. They do shameful things, and they are proud of what they do. They think only about earthly things. 20 But the government that rules us is in heaven. We are waiting for our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, to come from there. 21 He will change our humble bodies and make them like his own glorious body. Christ can do this by his power, with which he is able to rule everything.

In context, this does not say we become gods.

Philippians 3:14 Greek Text Analysis

Jamesone5 · May 31, 2020

Peter1000 said:
No, you just missed it in the 2nd to last paragraph. Let me sum it up again. Since we know that we are the offspring of God and that God is the Father of our spirits, we are prepared to make this interpretation of the scriptures in Job.

The sons of God were the offspring of God and were his spirit children which He was with before the earth was made. The sons of God were just that, literal sons of God.

OK, let me give you a scripture that uses the world "Father".
Hebrews 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The title of God the Father can be said many ways.
1) just God
2) just Father
3) God the Father
If the scripture says God, is the God of the spirits of all flesh, a normal person would not have a problem knowing that it is God the Father is the Father of our spirits. In any case you now know from Hebrews who the Father of our spirits is.

I will give you the Psalms and the Romans scripture:
Psalm 82:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Romans 8:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And again now we know who the "sons of God" were. They were the spirit children of God the Father that he was with before the earth was finished.

Do you honestly think this is "my first rodeo" with these verses?

I am just going to answer the first verse and then we resolve that one and then we can move on.

Hebrews 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The verses just before---context you know?

Hebrews 12:7-8
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

This sets up the situation where ALL mankind are NOT sons if they ever were.--God deals with you as with sons---not to be confused with ARE Sons.

And in verse 8 what about those it says are illegitimate and not Sons?

Seems like your are arguing against God and His Word ---not me

Daniel Marsh · Jun 1, 2020

Peter1000 said:
No, I can not find one verse that says that the sons of God recorded Job, are the spirit children of God.

But there are many scriptures that talk about God is the Father of our spirits, and that we are the offspring of God and we are his children, that sometime if your able to say 1 + 1 = 2, you will easily find the doctrine in the bible.

Lets try it:
Numbers 16:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

A little puzzled on Num 16:22

Numbers 16:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Numbers 16:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
22 But Moses and Aaron bowed to the ground and cried out, “God, you know what people are thinking. Please don’t be angry with all these people. Only one man really sinned.”

New International Version
But Moses and Aaron fell face down and cried out, "O God, the God who gives breath to all living things, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"

Contemporary English Version
But the two men bowed down and prayed, "Our God, you gave these people life. Why would you punish everyone here when only one man has sinned?"

Good News Translation
But Moses and Aaron bowed down with their faces to the ground and said, "O God, you are the source of all life. When one of us sins, do you become angry with the whole community?"

New Living Translation
But Moses and Aaron fell face down on the ground. “O God,” they pleaded, “you are the God who gives breath to all creatures. Must you be angry with all the people when only one man sins?”

He is the way · Jun 1, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Do you honestly think this is "my first rodeo" with these verses?

I am just going to answer the first verse and then we resolve that one and then we can move on.

Hebrews 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The verses just before---context you know?

Hebrews 12:7-8
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

This sets up the situation where ALL mankind are NOT sons if they ever were.--God deals with you as with sons---not to be confused with ARE Sons.

And in verse 8 what about those it says are illegitimate and not Sons?

Seems like your are arguing against God and His Word ---not me

We are all children of God:

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

(Old Testament | Malachi 2:10)

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

(New Testament | Matthew 23:8)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Peter1000 · Jun 1, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Do you honestly think this is "my first rodeo" with these verses?

I am just going to answer the first verse and then we resolve that one and then we can move on.

Hebrews 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The verses just before---context you know?

Hebrews 12:7-8
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

This sets up the situation where ALL mankind are NOT sons if they ever were.--God deals with you as with sons---not to be confused with ARE Sons.

And in verse 8 what about those it says are illegitimate and not Sons?

?"

Your dancing all over the place, trying to use context to deflect from the discussion. Just answer the question. Who is Paul referring to when he says "fathers of our flesh". And more importantly, who is Paul referring to when he says "the Father of spirits"?

Regardless of who are sons, and who are bastard sons, who is "the Father of spirits"?

Peter1000 · Jun 1, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
A little puzzled on Num 16:22

Numbers 16:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Numbers 16:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
22 But Moses and Aaron bowed to the ground and cried out, “God, you know what people are thinking. Please don’t be angry with all these people. Only one man really sinned.”

New International Version
But Moses and Aaron fell face down and cried out, "O God, the God who gives breath to all living things, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"

Contemporary English Version
But the two men bowed down and prayed, "Our God, you gave these people life. Why would you punish everyone here when only one man has sinned?"

Good News Translation
But Moses and Aaron bowed down with their faces to the ground and said, "O God, you are the source of all life. When one of us sins, do you become angry with the whole community?"

New Living Translation
But Moses and Aaron fell face down on the ground. “O God,” they pleaded, “you are the God who gives breath to all creatures. Must you be angry with all the people when only one man sins?”

Yes, it is confusing. And we could go 1 scripture at a time through the OT and NT and be further confused. This is why Jesus has called a prophet of God in our day to try to help us know what is the truth and what is error.

Thank you for the example.

Jamesone5 · Jun 1, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Your dancing all over the place, trying to use context to deflect from the discussion. Just answer the question. Who is Paul referring to when he says "fathers of our flesh". And more importantly, who is Paul referring to when he says "the Father of spirits"?

Regardless of who are sons, and who are bastard sons, who is "the Father of spirits"?

Hebrews 12:7-8
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

He was referring to NO one--as the previous verses cancel out what you assume.

Peter1000 · Jun 1, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Do you honestly think this is "my first rodeo" with these verses?

I am just going to answer the first verse and then we resolve that one and then we can move on.

Hebrews 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The verses just before---context you know?

Hebrews 12:7-8
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

This sets up the situation where ALL mankind are NOT sons if they ever were.--God deals with you as with sons---not to be confused with ARE Sons.

And in verse 8 what about those it says are illegitimate and not Sons?

Seems like your are arguing against God and His Word ---not me

Funny, you did not resolve the first verse. You just focused on the 2 verses before it and did not resolve who is "the Father of spirits"? So answer that and we will resolve the first verse.

I do not believe this is your first rodeo concerning these verses. I just think it is your first rodeo having to explain yourself in regards to these verses. You go to your Tuesday night bible study and you read these verses and then just fly right over who "the Father of spirits" is because none of you know much about the spirit that is in every man and where that spirit came from.

So you read this verse and just keep on reading. Nobody stops and says, wait a minute, who is this "Father of spirits"? Has any of your friends asked such a question before I presented it to you for serious discussion?

We are the sons of God in the spirit. If you do what He asks you to do, you will always be his son, if you do not do what He asks, he will eventually call you no son at all.
Makes perfect sense. So we better do as He asks, so we can remain his sons forever.

Jamesone5 · Jun 1, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Funny, you did not resolve the first verse. You just focused on the 2 verses before it and did not resolve who is "the Father of spirits"? So answer that and we will resolve the first verse.

I do not believe this is your first rodeo concerning these verses. I just think it is your first rodeo having to explain yourself in regards to these verses. You go to your Tuesday night bible study and you read these verses and then just fly right over who "the Father of spirits" is because none of you know much about the spirit that is in every man and where that spirit came from.

So you read this verse and just keep on reading. Nobody stops and says, wait a minute, who is this "Father of spirits"? Has any of your friends asked such a question before I presented it to you for serious discussion?

We are the sons of God in the spirit. If you do what He asks you to do, you will always be his son, if you do not do what He asks, he will eventually call you no son at all.
Makes perfect sense. So we better do as He asks, so we can remain his sons forever.

Evidently you do not understand what context means.

It means we do NOT take one verse out of the Bible and assume it means something.

You tell us to not look at statement made by BY and JS but, insist we take the context of what these false prophets are saying and then you are not consistent in how you read your Bibles.
Mormons know their Bible better that us Christians?

What a joke.

Peter1000 · Jun 1, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Hebrews 12:7-8
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

He was referring to NO one--as the previous verses cancel out what you assume.

So again, who is "the Father of spirits"? We are not talking about which sons are legitimate and which are not. Who is "the Father of spirits"?

You can say, since there are NO sons, there is NO "Father of spirits". Just say that instead of focusing on a scripture that was not the topic scripture in the first place, and refusing to answer what the topic scripture said clearly.

Daniel Marsh · Jun 1, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Justin Martyr a saint in many churches, in his discussion with the Jew Trypho in 140 ad, says that God did not create from nothing. So by 30 years after the apostles, there was a strong belief that God created things that were in chaos into unchaos.

In fairness this is what I found that Justin wrote:

Chapter 10. How God is to be served
But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man's sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him

Chapter 59. Plato's obligation to Moses
And that you may learn that it was from our teachers — we mean the account given through the prophets— that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers; and through whom the Spirit of prophecy, signifying how and from what materials God at first formed the world, spoke thus: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was invisible and unfurnished, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and it was so. So that both Plato and they who agree with him, and we ourselves, have learned, and you also can be convinced, that by the word of God the whole world was made out of the substance spoken of before by Moses. And that which the poets call Erebus, we know was spoken of formerly by Moses. Deuteronomy 32:22
CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

2 Maccabees 7:28 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
28 I beseech thee, my son, look upon heaven and earth, and all that is in them: and consider that God made them out of nothing, and mankind also:

"2
That the material of which the universe is composed was created out of nothing is the implicit, rather than specifically explicit, statement of the Bible. The Scriptural teaching on God and the relation of the universe to Him unmistakably affirms creation. God alone is declared to be underived, self-existent (Exodus 3:14), and in comparison with Him all things else are as nothing (Wisdom 11:23; Isaiah 40:17). God is said to be the beginning and end of all things (Isaiah 48:12; Revelation 1:8); all things else are from Him, and by Him, and in Him (Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:16). God is the absolute and independent sovereign (Psalm 49:12 and Isaiah 44:24; Hebrews 1:10). That these texts equivalently assert that God is the Creator of all things finite is too obvious to call for further comment. The most explicit Scriptural statement respecting the created origin of the universe is found in the first verse of Genesis: "In the beginning God created heaven and earth". The objects here designated evidently comprise the material universe; whether the originative act is to be understood as specifically creative, depends upon the meaning of the Hebrew verb bara. On this point the following interpretations by unimpeachable authority may be adduced. Gesenius says: "The use of this verb [bara] in Kal, the conjugation here employed, is entirely different from its primary signification (to cut, shape, fashion); it signifies rather the new production of a thing than the shaping or elaborating of the pre-existing material. That the first verse of Genesis teaches that the original creation of the world in its rude and chaotic state was from nothing while the remaining part of the chapter teaches the elaboration and distribution of the matter thus created, the connection of the whole section shows sufficiently clearly" (Thesaurus, p. 357 b). Mühlan and Volck in the new edition of Gesenius' "Handwörterbuch" say: "Bara is used only of Divine creation and never with an accusative of the material". Dillmann (Genesis 1) notes: "The Hebrews use only the conjugation Piel (intensative) in speaking of human 'forming' or 'shaping', while on the other hand they use only Kal in speaking of creation of God". Delitzsch says: (Gen., p. 91) "The word bara in its etymology does not exclude a previous material. lilt has, as the use of Kal shows, the fundamental idea of cutting or hewing. But as In other languages words which define creation by God have the same etymological idea at their root, so bara has acquired the idiomatic meaning of a divine creating, which, whether in the kingdom of nature, or of history, or of the spirit, calls into being that which hitherto had no existence. Bara never appears as the word for human creation, differing in this from the synonyms asah, yatzar, yalad, which are used both of men and of God; it is never used with an accusative of the material, and even from this it follows that it defines the divine creative act as one without any limitations, and its result, as to its proper material, as entirely new; and, as to its first cause, entirely the creation of divine power." Again Kalisch observes (Gen., p. 1): "God called the universe into being out of nothing; not out of formless matter coeval with Himself" (Geikie, Hours with the Bible, I, 16)."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Creation

2 Maccabees 7:28 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
28 I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.

Thus says the Lord, the God that created the heavens, and made them fast, that established the earth, and that which is in it; and gave breath to the people upon it, and spirit to them who walk therein: I the Lord God have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will strengthen You; and I have given You for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out them that are bound from the chains, and those who sit in darkness from the prison-house. I am the Lord God; this is my name: my glory will I not give to another, nor my virtues to graven images. "
CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 55-68 (Justin Martyr)

"Justin: Is what you say, then, of a like nature with that which Plato in Timæus hints about the world, when he says that it is indeed subject to decay, inasmuch as it has been created, but that it will neither be dissolved nor meet with the fate of death on account of the will of God? Does it seem to you the very same can be said of the soul, and generally of all things? For those things which exist after God, or shall at any time exist, these have the nature of decay, and are such as may be blotted out and cease to exist; for God alone is unbegotten and incorruptible, and therefore He is God, but all other things after Him are created and corruptible."
CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 1-9 (Justin Martyr)

Justin: But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, 'Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputes not sin;' that is, having repented of his sins, that he may receive remission of them from God; and not as you deceive yourselves, and some others who resemble you in this, who say, that even though they be sinners, but know God, the Lord will not impute sin to them. We have as proof of this the one fall of David, which happened through his boasting, which was forgiven then when he so mourned and wept, as it is written. But if even to such a man no remission was granted before repentance, and only when this great king, and anointed one, and prophet, mourned and conducted himself so, how can the impure and utterly abandoned, if they weep not, and mourn not, and repent not, entertain the hope that the Lord will not impute to them sin?
CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 125-142 (Justin Martyr)

Peter1000 · Jun 1, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Evidently you do not understand what context means.

It means we do NOT take one verse out of the Bible and assume it means something.
Mormons know their Bible better that us Christians?

What a joke.

OK, I understand that, but what you have done because you are afraid to answer the question is to focus on the 2 scriptures before the topic scripture with some context nonsense in mind, without any discussion about the topic scripture. That is called deflecting for obvious reasons.

So now, because we are well informed about Hebrews 12: 7-8, lets talk about Hebrews 12:9.
Please explain who "the fathers of our flesh" are? and who is "the Father of spirits"?
Thank, you. You may explain how Hebrews 12:7-8 relates to Hebrews 12:9, but focus on Hebrews 12:9. Thank you.

LDS when and how did God become the father of our spirits

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