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Depends if we are building our house on the Rock or sand. There is a storm coming according to the scriptures. Do you believe this?
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THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!
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Depends if we are building our house on the Rock or sand. There is a storm coming according to the scriptures. Do you believe this?
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Yet Scripture speaks of a person given over by the Lord to Satan for destruction that he be saved (1 Cor.5:4-5) and many similar things. Scripture says those who sow to the flesh will reap corruption (Ga.6:8). Paul was given a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to buffet him in order to humble him (2 Cor.12:7-10).
As your SDA brother said:
If you don't think that God torments people, then are we even reading the same bible? For the Scriptures speak of the (1) sufferings God brought on Job (Job 2), (2) on all women in child birth (Genesis), (3) on those in the lake of fire (Rev.14:11; 20:10), on all creation (Rom.8:18-21; Eccl.1:13), on believers (e.g. 2 Cor.12:7-9), on a stubborn "brother" (1 Cor.5:4-5), on those rejecting faith (1 Tim.1:19-20) & many, many more. What is the purpose of all such torments:
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given
to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them".
Not to fry them with tortures till they are nonexistent forever.
Scripture speaks of torments in the lake of fire (Rev.20:10; cf. 14:11). To hold to your position of annihilation & Scripture you would have to believe they are sadistically tormented before God destroys them out of existence forever.
Where has anyone done that?
Where is your evidence of this accusation?
Alternately there's the injustice of annihilation:
Nonsense.
I don't see the justice in an endless punishment for the sins of a relatively momentary lifetime. That makes no sense at all. Not only does your annihilationism (endless oblivion) theory make a mockery of Love Omnipotent's justice, it also turns Love Crucified's Love into a carton of milk that expires in no time at all. You have Him putting the wicked into torments until they cease to exist & never bringing them back. That's sadistic, pointless and to the detriment of God's glory.
None of His blood shed for all is wasted, but is used to save the world. After all, that is what He is, the Saviour of the world, the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). That He does by His blood & bearing sin, not destroying the sinner out of existence & out of His love, joy & peace forever. No, Love Almighty does not hold neverending grudges, hate and bitterness against His created children. That would be unholy & sinful.
Even in this lifetime people get 2nd chances. Perhaps many more chances than that. Love Omnipotent's love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. He has an infinite number of chances to give. He says to forgive not just 7 times, but 70 X 7. He says love covers a multitude of sins. That's the Creator of the Scriptures & the Father God that i believe in.
I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".
Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.
King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.
Earlier you said universalism says people get a second chance. Now you're saying these people are "forced to repent". Which is it, a second "chance" or "forced to repent"?
So you can't see that the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace as any better than the God Who sadistically tortures MANY for all eternity? Wow. I'm speechless.
You say the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace is "not the God of love". And your Hitler nuking out of existence forever because His love expired like a carton of milk is "the God of love". Unbelievable. Is that actually what SDA's teach in their church meetings & publications, etc?
Universalism has nothing to say re Satan whatsoever. It is the doctrine that every human being will be saved. Christian universalism & universalists say this salvation is only by Jesus Christ & Him crucified.
Sure, gladly, as soon as the misrepresentations & opposition to universalism ceases. Yet here you are doing exactly that in a universalism related thread started by universalists. If you want to avoid the store, you shouldn't walk right into it.
That's a rather crude way of putting it. And what may torment people in the lake of fire we are not told in Revelation, but it could be quite a number of different things, such as their own sins, their conscience, their loss of all they had in the world & the pleasure's thereof, demons harrassing them, being alone in darkness, the presence of God, hearing the gospel, or angels singing, etc.
I think i know the difference between getting a (1) "free pass" taking a "bath" & not being accountable for one's sins and (2) being tortured. Doubleminded confusion sounds about right.
The oft repeated SDA mantra. You just can't SEE one verse that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jesus. But you will. And you just can't provide one verse that states anyone NEVER comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jesus.
It causes pain, both to belevers in this life & unbelievers hereafter.
Without holiness no one shall see the Lord.
All those who are ashes now will rise from the dust of the earth.
Non physical beings don't become physical ashes. Don't be ridiculous.
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It says they are "cast" into the lake of fire. Not that they "jump" in of their own free will because it's their choice & they don't want to enjoy God's love, joy & peace forever.
Moreover, what Omnipotent pure Loving parent let's their offspring walk off a bridge. Especially when He is more than capable of saving them.
Your theology is irrational.
Again that's quite a crude description. My previous post to you here already addresses that.
What makes you think anyone would or could resist for all eternity what is for their own good, namely the endless love, joy & peace of Love Omnipotent?
Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.
"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
------------------------
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
-----------------
"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."
"Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"
According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.
Love will conquer all.
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
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a-lily-of-peace
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And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Revelation 20:12, ASV)
And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
(Exodus 33:19, ASV)
Open thy mouth for the dumb,
In the cause of all such as are left desolate.
Open thy mouth, judge righteously,
And minister justice to the poor and needy.
(Proverbs 31:8-9, ASV)
(for anyone concerned that God’s judgement can’t be to show mercy to the aborted babies and infants and mentally afflicted)
(Revelation 20:12, ASV)
And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
(Exodus 33:19, ASV)
Open thy mouth for the dumb,
In the cause of all such as are left desolate.
Open thy mouth, judge righteously,
And minister justice to the poor and needy.
(Proverbs 31:8-9, ASV)
(for anyone concerned that God’s judgement can’t be to show mercy to the aborted babies and infants and mentally afflicted)
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By that logic, therefore, what Scripture reveals (and what you should also say) is:
1. that God punishes people to teach them lessons.
2. That brings pain.
3. That is no "different then what the Spanish inquisition did."
4. Therefore your viewpoint should be that what God does is no ""different then what the Spanish inquisition did."
At this point it would be good to review a tiny number of the Scripture passages in support of 1 & 2 above, as posted to you recently in this thread:
If you don't think that God torments people, then are we even reading the same bible? For the Scriptures speak of the (1) sufferings God brought on Job (Job 2), (2) on all women in child birth (Genesis), (3) on those in the lake of fire (Rev.14:11; 20:10), on all creation (Rom.8:18-21; Eccl.1:13), on believers (e.g. 2 Cor.12:7-9), on a stubborn "brother" (1 Cor.5:4-5), on those rejecting faith (1 Tim.1:19-20) & many, many more. What is the purpose of all such torments:
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them".
Not to fry them with tortures till they are nonexistent forever.
Can you quote any universalists who ever said that? Scripture doesn't say that. It speaks of torments in the lake of fire. And it reveals all, including those, therefore, will be saved. But nothing about any Inquisition type torture racks or Dante's Inferno or similar type mythical fictional crap such as you tout from an overactive imagination in some dream world.
What may torment those in the lake of fire we are not told in Revelation, but it could be quite a number of different things, such as their own sins, their conscience, their loss of all they had in the world & the pleasure's thereof, demons harrassing them, being alone in darkness, the presence of God, hearing the gospel, or angels singing, etc.
Was God sicking Satan on people (1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20) to destroy their flesh so they may be saved what you would consider "forced conversion, something God will not do"? If not, why not?
And as for forcing "everyone to be saved", what does that even mean? Everyone will gladly & thankfully of their own free will choose salvation.
Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.
Does God use "force":
"For Christ's love compels us..." (NIV)
"For the love of Christ controls us..." (NASB)
"For the love of Christ constraineth us..." (KJV)
Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.
Sometimes He gives up on mere talk & punishes (1 Cor.5:5; 1 Tim.1:19,20) to correct people. That is shown from Genesis to Revelation.
I have read the Bible from cover & cover. A verse saying that is nowhere to be found.
So Love Omnipotent, you imply, made humans so stupidly that they can reach a point where even His omnipotence cannot help them. Nor His unfailing unconditional Almighty love. Wow, what a failure. Even a sinner.
Guess again:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help
213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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Your response...
You have no scriptures that teaches that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming do you? Yet as shown earlier, God's Word not mine says...
1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.
Only Gods Word is true dear friend and I believe your beginning to see that Universalism does not have it.
Hope this helps.
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Not really dear freind. The difference is that I spend the time going through your post section by section reading it and thinking about it and showing why I disagree with it. You do not do this with my posts. You ignore the content and simply respam the same posts without addressing mine that prove why the scripture interpretations you apply out of context are not biblical. I do not mind you disagreeing with me but at least you can show why. You do not do this but simply repost the same posts I have already spent some time addressing so we can have a discussion. It would be appreciated if we can have a friendly discussion and share each others views whether we agree or do not it does not matter but being friendly and loving is the fruit of God's Spirit.
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I do, as i have shown you in dozens of posts.
And you have no scripture that teaches that the wicked NEVER receive eternal life after the second coming.
XYZ said:
"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." Philippians 2 Commentary - Vincent's Word Studies
"In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."
"κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).
"2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."
"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"
"...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.
"...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"
(The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.233ff)
"bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":
https://translate.academic.ru/κάμπτω/el/xx/
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κάμπτω
"No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."
Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 8 The Neglected Age
"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:
" “either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.
Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)
"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:
The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.
(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.
Love will conquer all.
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
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Not really. But i'll give you your like 5th chance to do it with this one:
Easy to say, but you still haven't addressed or refuted the points made in the content of my post. I believe that is because you can't & are therefore purposely avoiding it. Which is evident by your long post with a number of verses (already addressed in this thread BTW) that do not discuss the subject, namely Col.1:16,20 & the context therein. So if you have nothing to add re Col.1:16, 20, then i am done discussing that passage with you. As i posted & you've never properly addressed, but only with that above:
No one has ever gone through the following, point by point, and addressed every point.
If you don't have the time to read carefully, study & address posts refuting your viewpoint, then maybe this discussion is not for you.
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"
Also i would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:
16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?
"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;
COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons.
Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":
Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God
Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:
Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;
COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons.
Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe.""...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).
"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."
"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-738/
"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).
There is a parallel here:
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.
The reconciliation of all (Col.1:16, 20) implies the same.
Col.1:20 speaks of the reconciliation of all. Of course reconciliation implies faith. So your remark is irrelevant. Paul's argument excludes no one. It doesn't rule out anyone being reconciled because they died without faith.
Ephesians 2 isn't the context of Colossians 1, so why are you posting out of context material? Deal with the context of Colossians 1 & my comments about it, if you want to discuss that passage.
Again the reconciliation of all implies the faith & salvation of all. Therefore Paul has no need to even mention faith in Col.1:16 & 20.
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This is a good example of what I mean when I say your not interested in having a discussion. All your interested in doing is spamming this thread with Universalist website material written by other people from other websites without addressing anything I have been sharing with you. I have addressed near all of your posts content in this thread proving why the scriptures your website uses and the claims it is making is out of context to scripture and Greek word meaings but when I show this all I can here are crickets as you do not address them. Nothing is addressed my posts are ignored and you continue spamming other people work not relevant as a reply to what I have just shared with you. If you would like a discussion it would be appreciated if you spent some time going through my posts section by section as I do with you showing why you disagree as I do for your posts. Otherwise it is not really a discussion that we are having. Do you understand where I am coming from dear friend?
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Not really. But i'll give you your like 5th chance to do it with this one:
Easy to say, but you still haven't addressed or refuted the points made in the content of my post. I believe that is because you can't & are therefore purposely avoiding it. Which is evident by your long post with a number of verses (already addressed in this thread BTW) that do not discuss the subject, namely Col.1:16,20 & the context therein. So if you have nothing to add re Col.1:16, 20, then i am done discussing that passage with you. As i posted & you've never properly addressed, but only with that above:
No one has ever gone through the following, point by point, and addressed every point.
If you don't have the time to read carefully, study & address posts refuting your viewpoint, then maybe this discussion is not for you.
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"
Also i would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:
16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?
"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;
COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons.
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":
Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God
Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:
Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;
COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons.
"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).
"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."
"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-738/
"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).
There is a parallel here:
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.
The reconciliation of all (Col.1:16, 20) implies the same.
Col.1:20 speaks of the reconciliation of all. Of course reconciliation implies faith. So your remark is irrelevant. Paul's argument excludes no one. It doesn't rule out anyone being reconciled because they died without faith.
Ephesians 2 isn't the context of Colossians 1, so why are you posting out of context material? Deal with the context of Colossians 1 & my comments about it, if you want to discuss that passage.
Again the reconciliation of all implies the faith & salvation of all. Therefore Paul has no need to even mention faith in Col.1:16 & 20.
Your post here was addressed by demonstrating the context you left out that proves your application to these scriptures is in error. Here you go agian with more cut and paste spamming without addressing my posts and scriptures that prove that the scriptures you use here are taken out of context.. This is already address elsewhere in this thread. Your just spamming again. None of these scriptures teach the wicked will be saved. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:28; COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are to the Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. See also these scriptures on conditional salvation here linked. There is no free pass to heaven according to the scriptures without faith and accepting the free gift of God's grace through faith in the blood of JESUS.
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I'll be delighted to let readers judge the veracity or erroneousness of that statement. It should be an easy decision, as with many statements & misrepresentations you've made repeatedly throughtout.
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Thankyou dear friend that is all I ask. I have made no misrepresntations in regards to the false teachings of "UNIVERSALISM". If I make any claims they are supported by the scriptures from God's Word. I have only shared the truth from God's Word and God's Word is not mine but God's. You are free to believe as you wish.
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Why do you feel upset because I share the scriptures with you dear friend? I have only shared Gods Word with you in love. You are free to believe as you wish I do not judge you. We all answer only to God come judgment day. May I ask, are you a CARM once saved always saved (OSAS) supporter (Matt Slick)? For me I also believe OSAS is a teaching that is not biblical but may have some similarities to "Universalism" hence the question being asked and why you think I would be concerned by anthing that Matt Slick says or why you think he is credible in my view, as I do not believe what he teaches any more than I believe in what "Universalism" teaches. Why should seek to follow the Word of God over the teachings of men that seek to lead us away from what God says in my view.
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The head the seed of the woman was to bruise.
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” (Gen. 3:15)
David also said, “all the ends of the world shall remember, and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before him.” (Psalms 22:27)
This agrees precisely with the promise of God to Abraham, that all the nations, families, and kindreds of the earth shall be blessed in Christ Jesus.
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The head the seed of the woman was to bruise.
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” (Gen. 3:15)
David also said, “all the ends of the world shall remember, and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before him.” (Psalms 22:27)
This agrees precisely with the promise of God to Abraham, that all the nations, families, and kindreds of the earth shall be blessed in Christ Jesus.
Indeed dear Fine and today people follow JESUS from every nation in the world. This does not mean however that every person in the world is following JESUS however. Like you are trying to claim. Or does it say that all the unrepentant wicked will receive everlasting life after the death of JESUS as the scriptures teach that
1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.
Only Gods Word is true dear friend and I believe your beginning to see that Universalism does not have it. So NO dear friend you have provided NO scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be saved after the second coming.. Just NO dear Fine. Time to leave the gambling lady of second chances when there is none after the second coming for the unrepentant wicked. What your sharing dear friend is not biblical...
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THE SON OF GOD WAS MANIFESTED THAT HE MIGHT DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL." (1 John 3:8).
The very purpose of the manifestation of God's Son is stated to be the sweeping away of Satan's works.
How then can this possibly be true, while pain and sin endure for ever?
No ideas can be more exactly opposed than the permanence of evil, and the destruction of the works of the devil.
Is sin, and all that sin involves, the work of the devil? Yes, or No?
You cannot answer in the negative, if you accept the standpoint of Scripture.
But, if the affirmative be true, then all hell and sin and sorrow are to be swept away.
"THE FATHER SENT THE SON TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD." (1 John 4:14)
Does it not savor of mockery to say that the Father sent the Son to destroy evil, and to save the world, and that the Son is victorious; and yet that neither shall evil be destroyed or the world saved?
The very purpose of the manifestation of God's Son is stated to be the sweeping away of Satan's works.
How then can this possibly be true, while pain and sin endure for ever?
No ideas can be more exactly opposed than the permanence of evil, and the destruction of the works of the devil.
Is sin, and all that sin involves, the work of the devil? Yes, or No?
You cannot answer in the negative, if you accept the standpoint of Scripture.
But, if the affirmative be true, then all hell and sin and sorrow are to be swept away.
"THE FATHER SENT THE SON TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD." (1 John 4:14)
Does it not savor of mockery to say that the Father sent the Son to destroy evil, and to save the world, and that the Son is victorious; and yet that neither shall evil be destroyed or the world saved?
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God did indeed send his son to be the Savior of the word dear Fine. It is too bad that not all people in the world will accept the gift of God's dear son. I believe the teachings of "UNIVERSALISM" makes a mockery of the cross by trying to teach that the unrepentant wicked recieve eternal life after the second coming without accepting the gift of God's grace through faith which is what the scriptures teach in HEBREWS 10:26-39. As the scritptures teach... Many are called but few are chosen Matthew 22:14... Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it *MATTHEW 7:13-14
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