THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Status
Not open for further replies.

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
…..In these 9 verses, Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”
Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never used “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.
[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

1) The Greek word there is not aionios, as you state, but aiona meaning age, eon.
2) So your conclusion is, therefore, wrong.
3) Jesus contrasts the bread eaten by those who died with the bread that will make those who eat it live EIS "the age". EIS: to, into.
4) In light of 1) above, "forever" is a misleading, erroneous, deceptive translation.
5) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.6:58 This is the Bread which descends out of heaven. Not according as the fathers ate and died; he who is masticating this Bread shall be living for the eon (CLV)
6) Of course an "age", i.e. "eon", can be finite.
7) That doesn't mean believers live only for a finite period. (There is no "only" in the verse).
8) The verse doesn't address the question of how long they live or eternal destinies of anyone. Other Scriptures do that, such as when we are told we will be "immortal", cannot die anymore, will always be with the Lord, all will be saved eventually, each in their own order, etc.
9) You say: "If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” But you err, as life is opposite(antonym) to death: Thesaurus results for DEATH
10) Moreover those who are believers during church age history who obtain "life eonian" in the finite millennial age will also receive immortality, i.e. endless life.
11) So their life will be eternal, but not due to the word "aionion".


[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
See note on ou mé at bottom. In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

1) In this verse once more the word aiona (eon, age) occurs and the translators left it out! They didn't even bother to translate it!
2) Your quoted version is misleading, unlike a number of more literal versions such as:
Jn.10:28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand." (CLV)
3)"Definition of eonian...variant spelling of aeonian"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eonia
"aeonian, from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic"
Definition of AEONIAN
4) Concerning the alleged claim: "If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’”
a) Aion most certainly means an age, e.g.: Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age
b) Obviously an "age" (eon) can be a finite period.
c) Just because no one shall be "snatching" a believer out of Jesus' hand does not necessarily mean that the believer has "eternal security" or that the believer cannot - jump - out of His hand, i.e. fall away, backslide, & reject Him thereafter.
d) In the larger context of the passage i suggest that Jesus is not addressing final eternal destinies at all, but contrasting destinies in the eon to come.
e) Scripture speaks of multiple eons to come, so arguably the eon to come is finite.
f) "And I am giving them life eonian". As long as they believe in Him till they die "in Christ" or until His return. If they believe only "for a while" (Lk.8:13) then all bets are off, including remaining in His "hand".
g) "they should by no means be perishing for the eon". If they have believed till their death or His return, then they won't perish for the millennial eon. Unlike some others who may (or do) die then (Isa.65:20).
h) They will also have immortality & be always with the Lord.
i) By virtue of having immortality they will have endless life, not because they obtained eonian life, life in the eon to come.
j) So the passage has an alternate interpretation without requiring eonian mean "eternal" as you claim it does there.
5. You state: "If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” " Why should they have to be the "opposite" of one another & not instead just separate pieces of info Jesus gives in the verse re blessings to be obtained by those who continue in faith?

[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In the above two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

1) No, there is at least one other explanation that refutes your claim. Namely that believers who are promised aionion(eonian) life - if aionion(eonian) life is in a finite period, such as the millennial eon - could not perish because they will have immortality when Christ returns at the beginning of the millennial eon. Assuming they keep on believing till Christ's return or they died "in Christ" - in which case they will obtain immortality when He returns (1 Cor.15:51-56) - and do not merely believe "for a while" (Lk.8:13).
2) So your argument is not only unsound logically but also unscriptural. Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures re immortality.
3) A better translation is not "believeth", but "is believing" since the requirement is a continual believing, not a temporary believing just "for a while" (Lk.8:13).
4) Your quoted version is misleading, unlike a number of more literal versions such as:
John3:15 that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian." 16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian." (CLV)
5)"Definition of eonian...variant spelling of aeonian"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eonia
"aeonian, from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic" Definition of AEONIAN
6) The next verse states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” Перевод ἵνα с греческого на все языки

The "result" of God sending His Son into the world will be to save it (Jn.3:17).


[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

1) Much of what i've already pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) Re the comment above "unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death." Of course that can happen when any of His followers believe only "for a while" (Lk.8:13) or makes shipwreck of their faith (1 Tim.1:19) or does not continue in faith (Col.1:21-23).
4) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (CLV)
6) The "not coming into condemnation" in the verse is conditionally dependent on the "believing". If one eternally believes then one will eternally never come into condemnation.
7) Believing continually also results in eonian life, but that doesn't mean eonian life, life in the coming eon, or the eon itself, is eternal.
8) Although those who obtain life in the coming eon will have immortality, which is eternal life.
9) And as they will be always with the Lord (1 Thess.4:17) & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28), they will be blessed & never come into condemnation.
10) You state: "In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” " They are in the same verse, but it is continual belief until one has immortality - not aionios - that results in "shall not come into condemnation" & "passed from death unto life".
11. You say: "“Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death." That is not necessarily the case. The reason being that not coming into condemnation does not have to be dependent on aionion life meaning eternal life. Something that you appear to assume. Jesus doesn't condemn the person, not because they will attain to eonian life (life in the millenial eon), but because they believe in Him! So your argument fails.

continued in my next post...
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

1) Again much of what i've pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLV)
4) The fact is we all have been "stubborn", so if your reasoning were correct, then no one could ever be saved!
5) But the wrath or "indignation" is only on the "stubborn" unbeliever as long as he remains stubborn. Once we ceased being stubborn & believed, God's wrath was no longer on us.
6) Nothing in Jn.3:36 states that the stubborn cannot turn to God postmortem.
7) The verse speaks of one who "shall not see life". What "life"? The eonian life of the context that the believer will obtain? The life of God?
8) What's to say that this "eonian life" is not life in the next & finite eon, e.g. a 1000 year eon? Jesus says much the same in Mk.10:30 & Lk.18:30, that believers will receive "in the coming eon, life eonian".
9) Yet Scripture often speaks of multiple eons to come, so the coming eon must be finite. So why would the "life eonian" obtained in it (Mk.10:30) also not be finite?
10) You state: "If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life By definition aionios means eternal." What the premises are for his conclusion are not properly laid out, so who knows what he's thinking. Does anyone? Maybe he should try laying it out clearly something like this, so people can understand what he's trying to communicate:

"Premise 1. The world is an organized system.
Premise 2. Every organized system must have a creator.
Conclusion. The creator of the world is God."



[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

1) Again much of what i've pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) In this verse once more the word aiona (eon, age) occurs and once again (as in John 10:28 above) the translators misled people and left it out! They didn't even bother to translate it! As shown here: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh4.pdf
4) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.4:14 yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into life eonian. (CLV)
5) In the above translation "life eonian" is paired opposite to "for the eon".
6) If the eon in view is the coming eon, then the coming eon may be finite, for Scripture speaks in many passages of multiple future eons.
7) In light of 5) & 6) above, arguably the "life eonian" referred to in Jn.4:14 is finite.
8) Your conclusion here is dismissed as it is based on the misleading translation “shall never thirst.”
9) If anything, with the proper translation, "under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon", the opposite conclusion is more warranted.
10) No wonder the Early Church Father, Origen, in commenting on this verse spoke of "after eonian life":

"And after eternal(eonian) life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal(eonian) life." (Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32)


[8]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

1) Again much of what i've pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.6:27 Do not work for the food which is perishing, but for the food which is remaining for life eonian, which the Son of Mankind will be giving to you, for this One God, the Father, seals. (CLV)
4) You evidently think "etenal" is an opposite for "perish". However Websters' Dictionary lists "age" as a near antonym("opposite") for "perish", but it doesn't list "eternal" at all: Thesaurus results for PERISH
5) Jesus says "Do not work for...food", but Paul says to work, & if you don't work, you don't eat (2 Thess.3:10). So what, really, is Jesus saying there? Is He contradicting Paul or does His statement have a deeper meaning?
6) You say "In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” " But the verse doesn't even use the words "aionios meat". He made that up out of thin air.


[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."

1. In this verse once more the word aiona (eon, age) occurs and once again (as in John 10:28 above) the translators misled people and left it out! They didn't even bother to translate it! As shown here: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh8.pdf
2) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.8:51 Verily, Verily, I am saying to you, If ever anyone should be keeping My word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon. (CLV)


…..According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent,
● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.

That's exactly how the version of Jn.10:28 i posted above translated it, "by no means be perishing for the eon". But as you can see, it is limited by "for the eon". Which your translation completely failed to translate!

● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Why didn't you list the page number for that BAGD entry?

● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.

I rest my case.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
1) The Greek word there is not aionios, as you state, but aiona meaning age, eon.
2) So your conclusion is, therefore, wrong.
3) Jesus contrasts the bread eaten by those who died with the bread that will make those who eat it live EIS "the age". EIS: to, into.
4) In light of 1) above, "forever" is a misleading, erroneous, deceptive translation.
5) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.6:58 This is the Bread which descends out of heaven. Not according as the fathers ate and died; he who is masticating this Bread shall be living for the eon (CLV)
6) Of course an "age", i.e. "eon", can be finite.
7) That doesn't mean believers live only for a finite period. (There is no "only" in the verse).
8) The verse doesn't address the question of how long they live or eternal destinies of anyone. Other Scriptures do that, such as when we are told we will be "immortal", cannot die anymore, will always be with the Lord, all will be saved eventually, each in their own order, etc.
9) You say: "If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” But you err, as life is opposite(antonym) to death: Thesaurus results for DEATH
10) Moreover those who are believers during church age history who obtain "life eonian" in the finite millennial age will also receive immortality, i.e. endless life.
11) So their life will be eternal, but not due to the word "aionion".




1) In this verse once more the word aiona (eon, age) occurs and the translators left it out! They didn't even bother to translate it!
2) Your quoted version is misleading, unlike a number of more literal versions such as:
Jn.10:28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand." (CLV)
3)"Definition of eonian...variant spelling of aeonian"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eonia
"aeonian, from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic"
Definition of AEONIAN
4) Concerning the alleged claim: "If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’”
a) Aion most certainly means an age, e.g.: Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age
b) Obviously an "age" (eon) can be a finite period.
c) Just because no one shall be "snatching" a believer out of Jesus' hand does not necessarily mean that the believer has "eternal security" or that the believer cannot - jump - out of His hand, i.e. fall away, backslide, & reject Him thereafter.
d) In the larger context of the passage i suggest that Jesus is not addressing final eternal destinies at all, but contrasting destinies in the eon to come.
e) Scripture speaks of multiple eons to come, so arguably the eon to come is finite.
f) "And I am giving them life eonian". As long as they believe in Him till they die "in Christ" or until His return. If they believe only "for a while" (Lk.8:13) then all bets are off, including remaining in His "hand".
g) "they should by no means be perishing for the eon". If they have believed till their death or His return, then they won't perish for the millennial eon. Unlike some others who may (or do) die then (Isa.65:20).
h) They will also have immortality & be always with the Lord.
i) By virtue of having immortality they will have endless life, not because they obtained eonian life, life in the eon to come.
j) So the passage has an alternate interpretation without requiring eonian mean "eternal" as you claim it does there.
5. You state: "If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” " Why should they have to be the "opposite" of one another & not instead just separate pieces of info Jesus gives in the verse re blessings to be obtained by those who continue in faith?



1) No, there is at least one other explanation that refutes your claim. Namely that believers who are promised aionion(eonian) life - if aionion(eonian) life is in a finite period, such as the millennial eon - could not perish because they will have immortality when Christ returns at the beginning of the millennial eon. Assuming they keep on believing till Christ's return or they died "in Christ" - in which case they will obtain immortality when He returns (1 Cor.15:51-56) - and do not merely believe "for a while" (Lk.8:13).
2) So your argument is not only unsound logically but also unscriptural. Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures re immortality.
3) A better translation is not "believeth", but "is believing" since the requirement is a continual believing, not a temporary believing just "for a while" (Lk.8:13).
4) Your quoted version is misleading, unlike a number of more literal versions such as:
John3:15 that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian." 16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian." (CLV)
5)"Definition of eonian...variant spelling of aeonian"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eonia
"aeonian, from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic" Definition of AEONIAN
6) The next verse states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” Перевод ἵνα с греческого на все языки

The "result" of God sending His Son into the world will be to save it (Jn.3:17).




1) Much of what i've already pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) Re the comment above "unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death." Of course that can happen when any of His followers believe only "for a while" (Lk.8:13) or makes shipwreck of their faith (1 Tim.1:19) or does not continue in faith (Col.1:21-23).
4) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (CLV)
6) The "not coming into condemnation" in the verse is conditionally dependent on the "believing". If one eternally believes then one will eternally never come into condemnation.
7) Believing continually also results in eonian life, but that doesn't mean eonian life, life in the coming eon, or the eon itself, is eternal.
8) Although those who obtain life in the coming eon will have immortality, which is eternal life.
9) And as they will be always with the Lord (1 Thess.4:17) & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28), they will be blessed & never come into condemnation.
10) You state: "In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” " They are in the same verse, but it is continual belief until one has immortality - not aionios - that results in "shall not come into condemnation" & "passed from death unto life".
11. You say: "“Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death." That is not necessarily the case. The reason being that not coming into condemnation does not have to be dependent on aionion life meaning eternal life. Something that you appear to assume. Jesus doesn't condemn the person, not because they will attain to eonian life (life in the millenial eon), but because they believe in Him! So your argument fails.

continued in my next post...

Repitition spamming and re cutting and pasting already answered. Please address the post content provided to you earlier that you have not addressed. God's Word disagrees with you as shown in posts # 1591 linked to 1592 linked prove. That is why you do not address the content provided.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
1) Again much of what i've pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLV)
4) The fact is we all have been "stubborn", so if your reasoning were correct, then no one could ever be saved!
5) But the wrath or "indignation" is only on the "stubborn" unbeliever as long as he remains stubborn. Once we ceased being stubborn & believed, God's wrath was no longer on us.
6) Nothing in Jn.3:36 states that the stubborn cannot turn to God postmortem.
7) The verse speaks of one who "shall not see life". What "life"? The eonian life of the context that the believer will obtain? The life of God?
8) What's to say that this "eonian life" is not life in the next & finite eon, e.g. a 1000 year eon? Jesus says much the same in Mk.10:30 & Lk.18:30, that believers will receive "in the coming eon, life eonian".
9) Yet Scripture often speaks of multiple eons to come, so the coming eon must be finite. So why would the "life eonian" obtained in it (Mk.10:30) also not be finite?
10) You state: "If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life By definition aionios means eternal." What the premises are for his conclusion are not properly laid out, so who knows what he's thinking. Does anyone? Maybe he should try laying it out clearly something like this, so people can understand what he's trying to communicate:

"Premise 1. The world is an organized system.
Premise 2. Every organized system must have a creator.
Conclusion. The creator of the world is God."





1) Again much of what i've pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) In this verse once more the word aiona (eon, age) occurs and once again (as in John 10:28 above) the translators misled people and left it out! They didn't even bother to translate it! As shown here: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh4.pdf
4) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.4:14 yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into life eonian. (CLV)
5) In the above translation "life eonian" is paired opposite to "for the eon".
6) If the eon in view is the coming eon, then the coming eon may be finite, for Scripture speaks in many passages of multiple future eons.
7) In light of 5) & 6) above, arguably the "life eonian" referred to in Jn.4:14 is finite.
8) Your conclusion here is dismissed as it is based on the misleading translation “shall never thirst.”
9) If anything, with the proper translation, "under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon", the opposite conclusion is more warranted.
10) No wonder the Early Church Father, Origen, in commenting on this verse spoke of "after eonian life":

"And after eternal(eonian) life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal(eonian) life." (Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32)




1) Again much of what i've pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.6:27 Do not work for the food which is perishing, but for the food which is remaining for life eonian, which the Son of Mankind will be giving to you, for this One God, the Father, seals. (CLV)
4) You evidently think "etenal" is an opposite for "perish". However Websters' Dictionary lists "age" as a near antonym("opposite") for "perish", but it doesn't list "eternal" at all: Thesaurus results for PERISH
5) Jesus says "Do not work for...food", but Paul says to work, & if you don't work, you don't eat (2 Thess.3:10). So what, really, is Jesus saying there? Is He contradicting Paul or does His statement have a deeper meaning?
6) You say "In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” " But the verse doesn't even use the words "aionios meat". He made that up out of thin air.




1. In this verse once more the word aiona (eon, age) occurs and once again (as in John 10:28 above) the translators misled people and left it out! They didn't even bother to translate it! As shown here: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh8.pdf
2) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.8:51 Verily, Verily, I am saying to you, If ever anyone should be keeping My word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon. (CLV)




That's exactly how the version of Jn.10:28 i posted above translated it, "by no means be perishing for the eon". But as you can see, it is limited by "for the eon". Which your translation completely failed to translate!



If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Why didn't you list the page number for that BAGD entry?



Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.

I rest my case.

You have yet to make a case. All you have done is repeated your cut and paste without addressing the content of my posts to you. Repitition spamming and re cutting and pasting already answered. Please address the post content provided to you earlier that you have not addressed. God's Word disagrees with you as shown in posts # 1591 linked to 1592 linked prove. That is why you do not address the content provided.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Then stop repeating the same questions.
Then you may not keep getting the same answers.
You have not answered my question. Where is the scripture dear friend that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming? You have not provided any as proven throughout this thread. Does this not worry you? It should. UNIVERSALISM is teaching this false teaching when

the scriptures teach...

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

I beleive Gods' Word, it seems "UNIVERSALISM" denies it so we are at odds I guess.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The scripture here are to the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked who partake of the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire after the second coming. Come out from the teaching of the gambling lady of second chances fear Fine. There are no second chances after the second coming.

tenor.gif

You have failed to complete your assignments & as a result are holding a big fat beware of "F" as in fail.

Your new assignment today =

Show us the passages of Scripture that show the Author of ta pavnta operates in a realm of chance (first, second, third, fourth)?
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Here you are agian micro quoting my post that addresses this content in detail.

Nah, your post doesn't address that material. You've never even read it.

I can understand why you refuse to post my full post to this section. It proves why you are in error.

I can understand why you refuse to respond comprehensively & fully to all of the following. You are in error.

It would be helpful in that regard if you answered my post # 1546.

Also the entire post # 1549.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

All of post # 1553.

Post #1554 as well.

Don't forget post #1555.

And then there's post #1556.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

And you never addressed & refuted my points there.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."

You addressing all of the above would be a start.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You have failed to complete your assignments, & as a result are holding a big fat beware of "F" as in fail.

Your new assignment today =

Show us the passages of Scripture that show the Author of ta pavnta operates in a realm of chance (first, second, third, fourth)?[/B]

As posted earlier dear Fine the F for fail is in those who do not believe and follow God's Word.
JOHN 3:36 shows that they do not receive eternal life.

Yet this is the gambling lady of second chances who was in the garden of Eden said the same thing to Eve. You will not surely die, she said. Yet God says in the day you eat thereof you will surely die. I believe God dear friend. So should you.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You have not answered my question. Where is the scripture dear friend that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming? You have not provided any as proven throughout this thread.

As I said---this is definitely what will happen when all the wicked will bow and acknowledge that God is Lord and face judgement---before they are thrown into the lake of fire, everyone one of them, including Satan, will acknowledge God is Lord and acknowledge their judgement is just and merciful.

None of the passages i posted say that. They reveal - all - are saved. That can't occur when you say it does. It can only occur - after - people go into the lake of fire. Therefore those in the LOF will be saved.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

Philippians 2:9-11 – ‘should’ vs ‘will’

"“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,”...“In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."

Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 8 The Neglected Age
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Nah, your post doesn't address that material. You've never even read it.



I can understand why you refuse to respond comprehensively & fully to all of the following. You are in error.

It would be helpful in that regard if you answered my post # 1546.

Also the entire post # 1549.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

All of post # 1553.

Post #1554 as well.

Don't forget post #1555.

And then there's post #1556.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

And you never addressed & refuted my points there.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."

You addressing all of the above would be a start.

More repetition from you dear friend? All I am getting from you is repetition and cut and pastes without you addressing the content of my posts and scriptures shared only in love and as a help to you. Allready addressed here in post 1575. Your behind again dear friend and simply repeating yourself..
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
None of the passages i posted say that. They reveal - all - are saved. That can't occur when you say it does. It can only occur - after - people go into the lake of fire. Therefore those in the LOF will be saved.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

Philippians 2:9-11 – ‘should’ vs ‘will’

"“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,”...“In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."

Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 8 The Neglected Age

Nope they reveal all of those who believe and follow God's Word are saved before the second coming. None of those passages say that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. It is God's Word not mine that teaches..

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

I beleive Gods' Word, it seems "UNIVERSALISM" denies it so we are at odds I guess.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If you disagree show why you disagree like I do with your posts.

Been there, done that. Read the thread.

All you are doing here is ignoring the posts and scriptures shared with

You keep ignoring my points and posts. Such as:

I had a look at the last few posts of yours and could see it is the same cut and paste to what has already been addressed with no new content that has already been addressed that you simply reposted without addressing my posts to you. If you want to have a discussion let's talk.

It would be helpful in that regard if you answered my post # 1546.

Also the entire post # 1549.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

All of post # 1553.

Post #1554 as well.

Don't forget post #1555.

And then there's post #1556.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

And you never addressed & refuted my points there.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."

You addressing all of the above would be a start.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Been there, done that. Read the thread.



You keep ignoring my points and posts. Such as:



It would be helpful in that regard if you answered my post # 1546.

Also the entire post # 1549.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

All of post # 1553.

Post #1554 as well.

Don't forget post #1555.

And then there's post #1556.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

And you never addressed & refuted my points there.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."

You addressing all of the above would be a start.

More repetition from you dear friend? All I am getting from you repeated and cut and paste. All ready addressed here in post 1575. Your behind again dear friend and simply repeating yourself..I guess you got nothing then have you.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
None of those passages say that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming.

They do.

Read the context and the scriptures already provided REVELATION 5:6-13 is in reference to the saved not the unsaved v8-10.

No, it's clearly speaking of EVERY creature in the entire universe:

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
More repetition from you dear friend? All I am getting from you repeated and cut and paste. All ready addressed here in post 1575. Your behind again dear friend and simply repeating yourself..I guess you got nothing then dear friend have you.

None of that addresed my list. Sorry.



You claim that LAMENTATION 3 is in reference to the reconciliation of God to the unrepentant wicked.


False & wrong! My claim is only in regard to the verses i posted & what i said about them, not the whole chapter.

I believe this was very clearly refuted by showing the context of LAMENTATION 3 you ignired which shows in the scriptures that the scriptures are talking about REPENTANT ISRAEL not the unrepentant wicked.

I didn't ignore them. I said they're irrelevant. And you've failed to prove that they can erase verses 31-33 from the KJV Bible or change them to speak of Israel instead of what they say:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Children of men is not Israel!

Why also did you leave this next paragraph out of your reply & not address it, (which destroys your arguments re Eccl.1:13; Lam.3:31-33, etc:

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

And the context doesn't change this:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin.

So what? Lam,3:31-33 KJV - EXPANDS upon that and goes further to include "men" in general. Or do you not believe what is in front of your eyes? Or do you think God cannot speak of both Israel and "men" in general in the same context? That would be limiting God, wouldn't it? Would you want to limit God? Should that not worry you?

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
None of that addresed my list. Sorry.






False & wrong! My claim is only in regard to the verses i posted & what i said about them, not the whole chapter.



I didn't ignore them. I said they're irrelevant. And you've failed to prove that they can erase verses 31-33 from the KJV Bible or change them to speak of Israel instead of what they say:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Children of men is not Israel!

Why also did you leave this next paragraph out of your reply & not address it, (which destroys your arguments re Eccl.1:13; Lam.3:31-33, etc:

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

And the context doesn't change this:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)



So what? Lam,3:31-33 KJV - EXPANDS upon that and goes further to include "men" in general. Or do you not believe what is in front of your eyes? Or do you think God cannot speak of both Israel and "men" in general in the same context? That would be limiting God, wouldn't it? Would you want to limit God? Should that not worry you?

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

I will leave the linked posts as your claims are not true here dear friend, and your just repeating yourself again. All I am getting from you repeated cut and paste. All ready addressed here in post 1575. Your behind again dear friend and simply repeating yourself..I guess you got nothing then dear friend have you.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Then maybe you'll have time to address the alleged SDA teaching about Satan bearing the world's sins:
Why do people hate the Seventh Day Adventists?

Here is a little secret from the scriptures dear friend...

There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. Your Words are not directed towards me but to the one who the Word belongs. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him.

There is nothing new under the sun.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.