THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

ClementofA · May 30, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
"DITTO" This was already addressed with scripture and responded to HERE IN POST 1561 LINKED showing why your interepretation is not biblical. You have some catch up to do. Your just repeating yourself without addressing the content of my posts.

Actually your post #1561 doesn't even quote, let alone address, my remarks you are referring to above, here:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
The post you were quoting from shows you misapplied the scripture by leaving out context. Your argument was that LAMENATION 3 was to the unrepentant wicked but the cotext provided in the post you were quoting from demonstrated that LAMENTATIONS 3 is to REPETNANT ISRAEL and reconciliation to God by ISRAELS repentance and returning to God.

Still spreading misinformation.

LoveGodsWord said:
You claim that LAMENTATION 3 is in reference to the reconciliation of God to the unrepentant wicked.

False & wrong! My claim is only in regard to the verses i posted & what i said about them, not the whole chapter.

LoveGodsWord said:
I believe this was very clearly refuted by showing the context of LAMENTATION 3 you ignired which shows in the scriptures that the scriptures are talking about REPENTANT ISRAEL not the unrepentant wicked.

I didn't ignore them. I said they're irrelevant. And you've failed to prove that they can erase verses 31-33 from the KJV Bible or change them to speak of Israel instead of what they say:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Children of men is not Israel!

Why also did you leave this next paragraph out of your reply & not address it, (which destroys your arguments re Eccl.1:13; Lam.3:31-33, etc:

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

And the context doesn't change this:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

LoveGodsWord said:
I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin.

So what? Lam,3:31-33 KJV - EXPANDS upon that and goes further to include "men" in general. Or do you not believe what is in front of your eyes? Or do you think God cannot speak of both Israel and "men" in general in the same context? That would be limiting God, wouldn't it? Would you want to limit God? Should that not worry you?

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hmm? You do know this is your post right? What misrepresentation of "UNIVERSALISM" are you claiming I have made dear friend? I have made no misrepresentations.

What? No misrepresentations? They started in your first post in this thread, the OP.

It's a misrepresentation of universalism to state, as you do there, that it "does not hold anyone accountable for sin". Wrong, wrong, wrong!

You replied:

LoveGodsWord said:
Says who?

As someone who has read dozens of books by universalist authors, & dozens more by those opposed to universalism, and been active on many forums with other universalists posting, i believe i am in a position to know what they generally think about your misrepresentation at the beginning of post #1 of this thread. OTOH your post provided no evidence to support the misrepresentation.

That was the first of your misrepresentations of universalism in this thread.

Following is another of your misrepresentations of universalism in this thread (and i expect a search of the thread will uncover more):

LoveGodsWord said:
The teachings of Universalism denies God's justice and judgement for sin. This is where it makes a mockery of the cross and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39 claiming that the wicked get a free pass and can continue in known unrepentant sins for which JESUS died and receive eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith.

That is incorrect & a misrepresentation of universalism. No one gets "eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith". All those in the lake of fire will need to get right with their Maker, Love Omnipotnent, before they are allowed into the New Jerusalem, whose gates are never shut to the lost.

LoveGodsWord said:
Yes you do. You believe that the unrepentant wicked are saved after the second coming do you not?

They are not saved at the second coming. They go to "hell" for a spell to be tormented (compare Lk.16:19-31; Rev.14:11; 20:10) until they pay what they owe (Mt.5:25-26; 18:34-35), namely repentance toward God & man & faith in Christ & His blood shed for all.

LoveGodsWord said:
Or you believe that God tortures them in the lake of fire until they repent and agree to follow him and receive everlasting life right? That is not the loving God I know from the bible.

If you don't think that God torments people, then are we even reading the same bible? For the Scriptures speak of the (1) sufferings God brought on Job (Job 2), (2) on all women in child birth (Genesis), (3) on those in the lake of fire (Rev.14:11; 20:10), on all creation (Rom.8:18-21; Eccl.1:13), on believers (e.g. 2 Cor.12:7-9), on a stubborn "brother" (1 Cor.5:4-5), on those rejecting faith (1 Tim.1:19-20) & many, many more. What is the purpose of all such torments:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them".

Not to fry them with tortures till they are nonexistent forever.

I don't see the justice in an endless punishment for the sins of a relatively momentary lifetime. That makes no sense at all. Not only does your annihilationism (endless oblivion) theory make a mockery of Love Omnipotent's justice, it also turns Love Crucified's Love into a carton of milk that expires in no time at all. You have Him putting the wicked into torments until they cease to exist & never bringing them back. That's sadistic, pointless and to the detriment of God's glory.

None of His blood shed for all is wasted, but is used to save the world. After all, that is what He is, the Saviour of the world, the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). That He does by His blood & bearing sin, not destroying the sinner out of existence & out of His love, joy & peace forever. No, Love Almighty does not hold neverending grudges, hate and bitterness against His created children. That would be unholy & sinful.

Even in this lifetime people get 2nd chances. Perhaps many more chances than that. Love Omnipotent's love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. He has an infinite number of chances to give. He says to forgive not just 7 times, but 70 X 7. He says love covers a multitude of sins. That's the Creator of the Scriptures & the Father God that i believe in.

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

Earlier you said universalism says people get a second chance. Now you're saying these people are "forced to repent". Which is it, a second "chance" or "forced to repent"?

So you can't see that the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace as any better than the God Who sadistically tortures MANY for all eternity? Wow. I'm speechless.

You say the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace is "not the God of love". And your Hitler nuking out of existence forever because His love expired like a carton of milk is "the God of love". Unbelievable. Is that actually what SDA's teach in their church meetings & publications, etc?

LoveGodsWord said:
How are the unrepentant wicked saved in your view after the second coming?

Been there, done that. See above.

LoveGodsWord said:
Universalism has no scripture to claim that the unrepentant wicked are saved after the second coming. This teaching is simply unbiblical as demonstrated throughout this thread.

My conscience & Lord will never allow me to agree with that.

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ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
IS OUR SALVATION DETERMINED BEFORE THE 2ND COMING OR AFTER?

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.[12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Our salvation is determined before the 2nd coming...

Nothing there states salvation is - only - determined before the second coming. Nothing there states there is no salvation after the second coming.

If that were the case, what is the determination re salvation for aborted babies, children, teens who never heard the gospel? Saved or annihilated forever? Did they accept Christ before the second coming? Can those who died without being born again enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3)?

LoveGodsWord said:
There is no more chances at the second coming from the gambling lady of second chances once JESUS returns every case is decided and his reward is with him when the announcement is made before JESUS returns; He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be *REVELATION 22:11-12.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Be filthy...still...but not forever.

"The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9."

Revelation 22:11 -

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Heb. 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

While we're on the subject, here's a few cross references which show similarities to Rev.22:11:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Mt.15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life.

Is there the slightest hint of endless punishment in any of those verses or Rev.22:11? No.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

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And, now, for another commentary on Revelation 22:11:

"Is it possible that it means: “ready or not, here i come to bring judgement, whatever state I find you in?” Maybe I am stretching here, I fear."

"I am quite sure that the subsequent warning/promise means this (i.e. the common promise of YHWH, this time as Jesus, coming to reward and/or punish those according to their works.) So I have no problem with this preceding verse also having that meaning (or at least topically connecting to that meaning) as well."

Filthy Still??

And for yet another interpretation:

I expressed my opinion that this verse is supposed to be an indication of intransigence and perseverence in the final days of the tribulation. It is notably sandwiched between two very strong indications that those who remain “filthy” will not only keep being exhorted to come in, but that (as with the kings of the earth) they will actually do so.

I expect the statement is meant as a rhetorical counter-comparison, not as a command. You all go on being like that. But we will go on being like this; and here is what that means:
yes, there is punishment on the way, but we will never give up on loving you and encouraging you to wash and come home.

I would be more worried about it, if it wasn’t only smack between two examples of continuing and successful evangelism, but also wasn’t clarified by a massive amount of scriptural data otherwise.

It would seem that an annihilationist would have to construe part or all of this chapter to mean it takes place in the present day (for which there is some indication, since after
all evangelism is a present-day activity at least. ) The filthy can hardly go on being unjust after the lake of fire judgment if they are annihilated out of existence after
all! Fortunately, it is not my problem to try to explain how this verse must occur within continuity of at least one or maybe two calls to hopeful present-day evangelism while also
appearing to contravene any hope of that evangelism being successful flatly in the face of the surrounding data.

I expect a Calvinist would point to this as being the distinction between the elect and the non-elect, the latter of whom God never intended to save and so who are confirmed in their
sins forever by God, rendering the question of annihilation moot. But it seems an awful jump to have “the filthy” bluntly condemned in hopelessness in comparison with the “righteous”
who keep on being righteous; and then to have to explain why shortly afterward the Spirit and the Bride and the one who hears them (i.e. the righteous who are busy being righteous,
unlike the ones who are still loving and fondling their sinning) are exhorting with Jesus for the “filthy” to slake their thirst and wash their robes in the river of the water of life
coming out of the New Jerusalem, so that the “filthy” can obtain permission to enter and eat of the tree of life. Again, fortunately, not my problem.

It is a tough verse to read with the context in any case. Which to me signals that the meaning is probably not supposed to be straightforward, but rather some kind of figure of speech; thus my opinion about it being a counter-point comparison, introducing the distinction that soon follows afterward. (Which is literally the final specific revelation of the book.) [/
quote]

Filthy Still??

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
God's Word is good news indeed dear friend to those who believe and follow it.

What part of not everyone that says LORD LORD will not enter the KINGDOM of God do you not understand dear friend *MATTHEW 7:21-22. As posted earlier; JESUS has made provision for the sins of the whole world. The scriptures do not teach anywhere that all the world will accept the gift of God's dear son as shown in MATTHEW 7:21-22.

Der Alte said:
Then of course we have.

Matthew 7:21-22
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

You would have us believe that verse 21 does not say
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;"
But instead means,
"everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven righteous and unrighteous alike."

Did you miss verse 22 of the context which is speaking of what will happen on a certain "day", not eternal destinies? Nothing there states they cannot be saved at some point in the future beyond that "day".

By the same kind of logic you would have us believe that no one will be saved because all have been unrighteous & 1 Cor.6:9 says:

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"

Remember this:

Der Alte said:
.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died."

Der Alter said:
Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
The teaching of Universalism leads people to believe they can live like the devil, everything will be ok because I will get a second coming after JESUS returns.

How can "everything...be ok" after Jesus returns when the wicked will be being punished e.g. tormented in the lake of fire?

OTOH the teachings of endless tortments & endless annihilation repulse people away from its so-called loving all powerful all wise God whose love expires like a carton of milk & who is powerless to save. That's what leads people to "live like the devil".

The knowledge of the extent of the true love of God leads people to loving God.

"We love because he first loved us." (1 Jn.4:19)

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
If we do not accept Gods conditions of salvation before the 2nd coming we do not have salvation and are lost. It is as simple as that.

Then all aborted babies are lost, as well as dead children, dead teens, the mentally challenged & anyone else who never heard the gospel, eh?

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
Then all aborted babies are lost, as well as dead children, dead teens, the mentally challenged & anyone else who never heard the gospel, eh?

Goodness what nonsense. You already made these claims earlier in the thread did you forget the answer given you?

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
How can "everything...be ok" after Jesus returns when the wicked will be being punished e.g. tormented in the lake of fire?

OTOH the teachings of endless tortments & endless annihilation repulse people away from its so-called loving all powerful all wise God whose love expires like a carton of milk & who is powerless to save. That's what leads people to "live like the devil".

The knowledge of the extent of the true love of God leads people to loving God.

"We love because he first loved us." (1 Jn.4:19)

Trouble is the bible does not teach the wicked will take a nice warm bath in the lake of fire, repent and receive everlasting life. This teching is unbiblical. God does not torture people into believing and forcing them to follow him under torture in the lake of fire before giving them eternal life. This is unbiblical, "UNIVERSALISM" has not scriptures to support this claim and it is simply a false teaching not supported by the bible. What kind of God do UNIVERSALISTS follow if their God has to torture them into following them? Not the one I know written in the bible who is a God of LOVE, MERCY, JUSTICE and JUDGEMENT who in no way clears the unrepentant guilty.

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

@ClementofA I had a look at your spammed posts here. I do not feel any need to address them as most have been addressed in throughout this thread already. I am tired of chasing up posts to you that you do not seem to read, understand or do not respond to then reply by a cut and paste repeat. You have added no new content. So I think our conversation is coming to a close. I will however do one more detailed response to one of your posts here that may be helpful to you if you take the correction in it even though much of your post there is repitiation I believe the response I have provided to you will be helpful if you take the time to read it and accept the correction offered. Unless you have something new to offer I believe our conversation is over and we will have to agree to disagree. I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings of men that lead us away from God. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though but as you can see I do not believe them or do I believe they are biblical as proven in my scripture responses to you

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Scripture please. Where does it say that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming? Here we are 80+ pages and and not one scripture is provided. According to the scriptures the unrepentant wicked are corrected by being destroyed by the second death in the lake of fire with no more resurrections. *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; REVEALTION 21:7-8; JOHN 5:28-29. They receive the wages of their sins which is DEATH (second death) because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doind dispite to the spirit of God's grace *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

ClementofA said:
Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9) Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read: The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him." The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him." Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him." John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him."

I like all the translations of JOHN 3:36 as the key message is the same as that has been shared with you here from the beginning that continue to refute the teachings of "UNIVERSALISM". Here let make the highlights (capitals) for you and see if you can see what all these different translations have on common?

New International Version
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, but WHOEVER REJECTS THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE, for God's wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN GOD’S SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE. ANYONE WHO DOESN’T OBEY THE SON WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE ETERNAL LIFE but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE; WHOEVER DOES NOT OBEY THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Study Bible
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE. WHOEVER REJECTS THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
THE ONE BELIEVING IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT THE ONE NOT OBEYING THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides on him."

New American Standard Bible
"HE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE; BUT HE WHO DOES NOT OBEY THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides on him."

New King James Version
HE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; AND HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

King James Bible
HE THAT BELIEVETH ON THE SON HATH EVERLASTING LIFE: AND HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Christian Standard Bible
THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT THE ONE WHO REJECTS THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Contemporary English Version
EVERYONE WHO HAS FAITH IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE. BUT NO ONE WHO REJECTS HIM WILL EVER SHARE IN THAT LIFE, and God will be angry with them forever.

Good News Translation
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE; WHOEVER DISOBEYS THE SON WILL NOT HAVE LIFE, but will remain under God's punishment.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT THE ONE WHO REFUSES TO BELIEVE IN THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

International Standard Version
THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT THE ONE WHO DISOBEYS THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

NET Bible
THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE. THE ONE WHO REJECTS THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE, but God's wrath remains on him.

New Heart English Bible
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, BUT WHOEVER REFUSES TO BELIEVE IN THE SON WON'T SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
WHOEVER IS TRUSTING IN THE SON, HAS THE ETERNAL LIFE, AND WHOEVER DISOBEYS THE SON SHALL NOT SEE THE LIFE, but the anger of God shall abide upon him.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT WHOEVER REJECTS THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE. Instead, he will see God's constant anger."

New American Standard 1977
“HE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE; BUT HE WHO DOES NOT OBEY THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

King James 2000 Bible
HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE: AND HE THAT BELIEVES NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abides on him.

American King James Version
HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE: AND HE THAT BELIEVES NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God stays on him.

American Standard Version
HE THAT BELIEVETH ON THE SON HATH ETERNAL LIFE; BUT HE THAT OBEYETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
HE THAT BELIEVETH IN THE SON, HATH LIFE EVERLASTING; BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON, SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Darby Bible Translation
HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS LIFE ETERNAL, AND HE THAT IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

English Revised Version
HE THAT BELIEVETH ON THE SON HATH ETERNAL LIFE; BUT HE THAT OBEYETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Webster's Bible Translation
HE THAT BELIEVETH ON THE SON, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE: AND HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON, SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

World English Bible
ONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT ONE WHO DISOBEYS THE SON WON'T SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Young's Literal Translation
HE WHO IS BELIEVING IN THE SON, HATH LIFE AGE-DURING; AND HE WHO IS NOT BELIEVING THE SON, SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

.............

What do you think the message is here to the unrepentant wicked who do not believe and follow Gods Word? YEP! The UNREPETANT WICKED SHALL NOT SEE ETERNAL LIFE! Did you catch that dear friend? BOOM! The teachings of "UNIVERSALISM" comes tumbling down in the very scriptures you provide. This is kind of the opposite of what your trying to teach is it not?

ClementofA said:
This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life. It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

No one said that an unbeliever cannot become a believer in this life. So your claims here are irrelavant. The scriptures teach what happens to those who believe and follow God's Word and the unrepentant wicked and simply say..

JOHN 3:36 HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE: AND HE THAT BELIEVES NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God stays on him.

The scripture subject matter is to those who believe and follow God's Word and those who do not believe and follow God's Word and their rewards.

1. Those who believe and follow God's Word (the saved; God's people) receive eternal life.
2. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word (the unrepentant wicked) do not receive eternal life.

Not very hard is it?

ClementofA said:
It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before: 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Nonsense. Please provide a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming? There is none.

The scriptures teach...

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

Yet here you are trying to teach that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life when God says they do not? I know who I believe dear friend and it is not you.

ClementofA said:
In chapter 4 he writes: 39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers. 42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

Yep so they became believer not unbelievers and a part of the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked after the second coming did they?

ClementofA said:
John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

Sure it does see previous section. You have no scriptures that teach that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming do you? Yet as shown earlier, God's Word not mine says...
1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

to be continued...

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):
...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.18191310418a/271

NONSENSE your mistaken again! (highlighted claim red emphasis mine in relation to JOHN 3:36). We are discussing JOHN 3:36 nearly every parrallel translation outside of the KJV translates JOHN 3:36 as "eternal life" or everlasting life or life everlasting (see previous parrallel translation section above in this post to JOHN 3:36 on the saved receiving eternal life and the unrepentant wicked not receiving everlasting life.

GREEK Eternal (αἰώνιος) life (ζωή)

BDAG Definition eternal.
αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 A.D.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I B.C.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.

So no dear friend. Can you see your error here? Near all parallel translation translate JOHN 3:36 as "eternal"(αἰώνιος) in context to life (ζωή) the meaning of αἰώνιος in applied to JOHN 3:36 (and 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9) is a period or age of unending duration; without end; context is to life the correct translation is shown in nearly every parrallel translation of JOHN 3:36 as shown in the previous section above. You simply wrong dear friend and spreading misinformation. This is only posted as a help and correction for you. I hope you can receive it in the Spirit it was given and be blessed.

ClementofA said:
AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22) 1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Repitiation which does not say what claiming it says already addressed in other posts... None of these scriptures teach the wicked will be saved. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:28; COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are to the Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. See also these scriptures here linked

ClementofA said:
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . . Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

Repitition which does not say what claiming it says already addressed in other posts... Your argument here is that LAMENATION 3 was God reconciling the unrepentant wicked but the context provided in the post you were quoting from demonstrated that LAMENTATIONS 3 is to REPENTANT ISRAEL and reconciliation to God by ISRAELS repentance and returning to God. Your response was to ignore the context share in love as a help to you that shows why your interpretation of LAMENTATIONS 3 being to the unrepentant wicked at the second coming of Christ is in error. Your just repeating yourself here ADDRESSED ALREADY IN POST # 1545 Linked

ClementofA said:
Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life". Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good: 1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.… Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life": (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19). Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]: Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration: 4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX) The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets: Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)
Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame
In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".
Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment. ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture: could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change? 12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite: For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Ok read this section. This is only more repitition that has been addressed already in the previous sections already in this post. A couple of points I will bring to your attention dear friend that you or anyone else who reads these posts will clearly see that proves this section of yours is in error is that...

1. Hebrew/ Greel word meaning, interpretation and application is solely linked to context of scripture application. This is because unlike the english the Hebrew and Greek word meaning normally have more than one meaning. It is the application to context the determines interpretation in biblical exegesis.

Why is understanding this important?

2. You will notice in my reply to you above I have only linked everything in our discussion here to JOHN 3:36 which are the scriptures you brought up in relation to "ETERNAL LIFE". Everything I have provided is solely related to this scripture which has demonstrated that nearly all parallel translations to the kjv translate Eternal (αἰώνιος) life (ζωή) as a period or age of unending duration; without end; context is to life the correct translation is shown in nearly every parrallel translation of JOHN 3:36 as shown in the previous section above is "eternal life" which the unrepentant wicked do not receive.

Now notice your section above. You have moved away from the context of JOHN 3:36 to other scriptures that use different contexts and application of the Greek word Eternal (αἰώνιος) which has lead you to an incorrect interpretation and application of αἰώνιος as your looking at the contexts in relation to other scriptures away from JOHN 3:36. To me and your misreading of the Lexicon earlier in context to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 says to me you do not understand Greek and Hebrew word study. This is why this section of your post is in error as your applying the application of αἰώνιος to different scriptures moved away from JOHN 3:36 which is what we are discussing here. I can see your having problems now not only with scripture context but also not understanding the context importance of Hebrew and Greek word use and application. This is posted only as a help to you so you can be corrected and learn from it. It is up to you to receive the correction or not though.

Hope this helps.

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Goodness what nonsense. You already made these claims earlier in the thread did you forget the answer given you?

A question is not a claim.

You said:

LoveGodsWord said:
If we do not accept Gods conditions of salvation before the 2nd coming we do not have salvation and are lost. It is as simple as that.

Then all aborted babies are lost, as well as dead children, dead teens, the mentally challenged & anyone else who never heard the gospel, eh?

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
A question is not a claim.

You said:

Then all aborted babies are lost, as well as dead children, dead teens, the mentally challenged & anyone else who never heard the gospel, eh?

Sorry dear friend I am not playing the game of repitition again this has been answered earlier on in this thread. If your not reading or addressing my posts and simply repeating yourself I am no longer interested in a discussion with you. This was already addressed with an application to ACTS 17:30-31 and JAMES 4:17. Did you forget already? I didn't.

FineLinen · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:

THE TESTIMONY OF THE PROPHETS

All the holy prophets have spoken of the restitution of all things.

“And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, since the world began.” (Acts 3:20,21)

This is an important passage of Scripture. “And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, (but who has been crucified, and has ascended unto heaven, and ) whom the heaven must receive (or contain) until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

This “restitution of all things” is to take place, when Jesus comes down from the heavens, in the sense in which he had ascended into heaven. He had ascended into the heaven bodily; the heavens would contain Him until the times of the restitution; and then He would bodily visit the earth again.

Now when shall he visit the earth again bodily? Answer, at the resurrection of the dead. (See Acts 1:10,11, and 1 Thess. 4:16)

We conclude from this, that the restitution of all things is to take place at the resurrection of the dead.

The learned Parkhurst gives this view of the subject, and quotes Stockius at large as agreeing with him. We do not understand, that the restitution shall not begin until the time, but that it shall then be completed, and filled up, so that it may be said, all things are restored. This is begun in part in this life; but it will be completed and finished at the resurrection.

What is this restitution?

It is the putting of things back into their original condition.

Man was originally created in God’s image; but the divine image has been obscured by sin; and men now bear the image of the earthly.

But at the resurrection, when Christ shall appear, the restitution of all things shall take place, and then mankind will be restored to the image of God again; for St. Paul says, that at the resurrection mankind shall be changed from the earthly to the heavenly image. (1 Cor. 15:49)

This heavenly image which we have lost, we obtain back again at the resurrection of the dead; and to this the Saviour’s language agrees, for He says, that in the resurrection men shall be as the angels of God in heaven; i.e. they shall bear the heavenly image; (Matt. 22:30) that they can die no more, and “shall be the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luke 22:36)

This God has spoken by all his holy prophets since the world began; not fully and clearly as He has revealed it in the gospel; but He has spoken by the prophets of the recovery of all things from the dominion of sin, and their reconciliation to God, and the gaining again of the heavenly image.

-Thomas Whittemore-

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Scripture please. Where does it say that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming?

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

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LoveGodsWord said:
Yes, a parable. Your point here? How does this parable show that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming?

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The lord of the story returns, as the Lord will return, & delivers the wicked "to the tormentors" (v.34). And we know this tormenting is what happens to those cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10; cf 14:11) after the Lord returns. However in Matthew 18 they remain there until they "should pay all that was due". Which implies their salvation, no matter how long that may take. This opposes your theology.

LoveGodsWord said:
Yep so? What is your point?

The same as above.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

LoveGodsWord said:
All repitition again you have already posted in about 4-5 other placed that has already been addressed that is still waiting for a response from you. The lattest one I think is here linked.

Do you have something to share accept repitition and cut and paste over and over dear friend?

This is still unrefuted:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

FineLinen said:
THE TESTIMONY OF THE PROPHETS

All the holy prophets have spoken of the restitution of all things.

“And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, since the world began.” (Acts 3:20,21)

This is an important passage of Scripture. “And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, (but who has been crucified, and has ascended unto heaven, and ) whom the heaven must receive (or contain) until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

This “restitution of all things” is to take place, when Jesus comes down from the heavens, in the sense in which he had ascended into heaven. He had ascended into the heaven bodily; the heavens would contain Him until the times of the restitution; and then He would bodily visit the earth again.

Now when shall he visit the earth again bodily? Answer, at the resurrection of the dead. (See Acts 1:10,11, and 1 Thess. 4:16)

We conclude from this, that the restitution of all things is to take place at the resurrection of the dead.

The learned Parkhurst gives this view of the subject, and quotes Stockius at large as agreeing with him. We do not understand, that the restitution shall not begin until the time, but that it shall then be completed, and filled up, so that it may be said, all things are restored. This is begun in part in this life; but it will be completed and finished at the resurrection.

What is this restitution?

It is the putting of things back into their original condition.

Man was originally created in God’s image; but the divine image has been obscured by sin; and men now bear the image of the earthly.

But at the resurrection, when Christ shall appear, the restitution of all things shall take place, and then mankind will be restored to the image of God again; for St. Paul says, that at the resurrection mankind shall be changed from the earthly to the heavenly image. (1 Cor. 15:49)

This heavenly image which we have lost, we obtain back again at the resurrection of the dead; and to this the Saviour’s language agrees, for He says, that in the resurrection men shall be as the angels of God in heaven; i.e. they shall bear the heavenly image; (Matt. 22:30) that they can die no more, and “shall be the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luke 22:36)

This God has spoken by all his holy prophets since the world began; not fully and clearly as He has revealed it in the gospel; but He has spoken by the prophets of the recovery of all things from the dominion of sin, and their reconciliation to God, and the gaining again of the heavenly image.

-Thomas Whittemore-

The scripture here are to the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked who partake of the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire after the second coming. Come out from the teaching of the gambling lady of second chances fear Fine. There are no second chances after the second coming.

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36

There's no "eternal" life in John 3:36. That's a deceptive, misleading translation.

The Greek word there is aionios:

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

How can the wrath of God abide (remain) on someone if it isn't already there? And the denial ("shall not see life") is not time limited. It is that the individual will not see life. Period.

Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The lord of the story returns, as the Lord will return, & delivers the wicked "to the tormentors" (v.34). And we know this tormenting is what happens to those cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10; cf 14:11) after the Lord returns. However in Matthew 18 they remain there until they "should pay all that was due". Which implies their salvation, no matter how long that may take. This opposes your theology.

The same as above.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

This is still unrefuted:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Sorry dear friend. I am not addressing any more repitition. Everything in this post has already been adderssed and refuted by demonstrating the context you leave it. If you disagree show why you disagree like I do with your posts. All you are doing here is ignoring the posts and scriptures shared with you and spamming the same old cut and paste content you have already posted without addressing the content of my posts to you. Not very conducive of a discussion is it?

LoveGodsWord · May 31, 2020

ClementofA said:
There's no "eternal" life in John 3:36. That's a deceptive, misleading translation.

The Greek word there is aionios:

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Here you are agian micro quoting my post that addresses this content in detail. I can understand why you refuse to post my full post to this section. It proves why you are in error. Well you are free to believe as you wish. I will leave it between you and God. Your just repeating yourself and I can see your not here for a discussion so we will have to agree to disagree as God's Word disagrees with you as shown in posts # 1591 linked to 1592 linked prove. That is why you do not address the content provided.

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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