Engaging Fellow Christians with Grace and Truth

Junia

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Fair enough. It's true that any reference to luke-warmness should be made in the context of how that person is being luke-warm and how the luke-warmness relates to the teachings of Jesus.

For example, Jesus said we should not make promises for any reason. He said we should let our yes be yes and our no be no. Pretty straight forward. However, most professing Christians argue against this teaching. They explain that what Jesus really meant was that it is okay to make promises so long as you believe you're doing so with good intentions.

Obviously, if you want to make promises, then you can do that. Ssure, you're not obeying Jesus, but neither are you pretending to be his follower; there's no confusion. Because you are a non-believer you're under no obligation to obey Jesus. That's what being cold would mean;

If you believe Jesus meant what he said and that it's important to believe him then you won't make excuses to disregard his teachings; you will believe that obedience is important. That's what being hot would mean.

It's when you mix the two; when you claim to be a follower of Jesus, but you do not actually follow him in practice that the warm and the cold mix and you get a luke-warm person.

I previously listed another example where Jesus said we should keep our fasting secret. This is another one that's pretty easy. He even says we should wash our face and anoint ourselves with oil so that no one will even suspect that we're in discomfort from the fasting. If you're hot, you will believe Jesus meant what he said. It will be important to you that you really do take him seriously. You will think carefully about why he said it and ask yourself, "Why do I tell others about my fasting? Is my motivation really as pure and innocent as I like to believe"? And, if you don't find any satisfying answer to these questions (hard to believe if you're sincere) then you will obey Jesus simply because he's the boss and he said so.

If you are cold, then you'll make excuses for why it's not really that important to keep fasting secret. If you had been there at the time when Jesus gave this teaching, you could have let him know that you have good intentions so the teaching should not need to apply to you. You could have explained to him how to re-word the teaching to make it more clear, perhaps something like, "Keep your fasting secret only if you feel tempted to boast about it; otherwise it's fine to tell anyone" instead of this confusing thing about how you'll miss out on eternal rewards when you talk about your fasting to others.

Jesus said that his teachings will judge us and that he will be ashamed of anyone who is ashamed of his teachings. You can make all the fine, flowery speeches you want about how wonderful Jesus is, but he's already made it clear that God doesn't fall for such superficial flattery. He looks at your behavior; if you're at least trying to practice Jesus' teachings then you will be right with God despite your mistakes along the way. If you argue against his teachings, if you try to explain them away or water them down, then you show that you're ashamed of them. It really is that simple.

but we are also told to only eat meat without blood in it and women should not wear pearls or have their hair plaited and yet i dont know nay believers who take this literally? so is it lukewarmness or just not reading literally?

like the fasting i would not talk about it much but i would make sure my appaearance the same as it is as usual- for me i dont use oil on my head etc. but i wuld make sure i look normal.

what baout those of us who are burdened down by the weight of legalism and have OCD from trying to be perfect enough for Gid to accpet them in heaven? i have a really oversensitive conscience and tend to burn myself out trying to be perfect enough for God to even like me (most days i hear God tell me i am a pile of crap and he hates me> yes really. i hear that.) also i grew up in extrememly legalistic church. my mum was not allowed to divorce my dad for doing things to me and my sister because that was forbidden. that is hwo strict it was.......i do wan tto love God with all my heart. i dont think am ashamed of Him, but am shamed of how rubbish i a, at living for Him.
 
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Junia

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So, you think I am a luke warm Christian? You know nothing about me.

It is true that the Holy Spirit points us to the teaching of Jesus, but He does more than that. He is voice of Jesus.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The only words the Holy Speaks are the Lord's. When we hear the Holy Spirit, we hear Jesus speaking to us.

But, since you insulted me by implying that I am a luke warm Christian, I have no desire to talk with you further. Thank you for your time.


i think am lukewarm. but am working on it. i am not yet mature so spendign time meditation on how much Jesus loved me when he died on that cross for me and how cna i not wan tto live for Him in gratitude for saving me?
 
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Junia

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Yes, speaking the truth in love is Paul's way of putting it in Ephesians 4. There are two aspects to our love, tender love and tough love. The challenge is to know when to do them. I think that if we are always aware that we're sinners saved by grace, we will approach people in the humility required by the Bible so that they will sense that our love is genuine. When God wants us to do tough love, we need to admit that we're sinners and make it clear that our thoughts are grounded firmly in the Bible as God's Word.

yes, you put this beautifully
 
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John Helpher

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i think am lukewarm. but am working on it.

I think this is the kind of sincerity God is looking for. Whether we admit it or not, he can see that we all struggle with luke-warmness in one area or another. The warning in the Revelation is given with such vehement sternness (i.e. "spew you out of my mouth" being so akin to vomiting) that we'd all rather not believe such a thing about ourselves. We know that we're supposed to admit to being filthy, unrighteous, wholly unprofitable sinners but there's something especially repugnant when it comes to admitting luke-warnmess, I think, because such an admission begs the question, luke-warm about what? in a way which is not so strongly implied with the general admission of being a filthy sinner.
 
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Junia

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I think this is the kind of sincerity God is looking for. Whether we admit it or not, he can see that we all struggle with luke-warmness in one area or another. The warning in the Revelation is given with such vehement sternness (i.e. "spew you out of my mouth" being so akin to vomiting) that we'd all rather not believe such a thing about ourselves. We know that we're supposed to admit to being filthy, unrighteous, wholly unprofitable sinners but there's something especially repugnant when it comes to admitting luke-warnmess, I think, because such an admission begs the question, luke-warm about what? in a way which is not so strongly implied with the general admission of being a filthy sinner.

brilliant post.
 
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Sketcher

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Hey Sketcher. Thanks for taking an interest in the hypothetical. Tom is a 51 year old widower. His one child is grown and lives in a different state. Tom goes to the same church as you but you don't know him well, though your experience of him is that he's generally friendly, open to chit-chat, and ready to engage with other church members who approach him. You know about his model car collection because he sponsored a church bar-b-que at his house which you and 15-20 other church members attended. The food was tasty and everyone had a good time. While there you noticed the collection.

This triggered a memory you had of some visiting missionaries to your church a couple months ago, in which they told a story about the struggles they faced in Africa with lost and stolen property and their journey toward accepting that when Jesus said "do not store up treasures on Earth" he knew what he was talking about. At the time you, Bob, and presumably every other church member in attendance interpreted this recounting as a personal anecdote meant only for the missionary couple and not for all Christians.

However, seeing Tom's collection in their pristine glass cases and hearing the way he doted on and on about how long it took him to collect and how much time, attention, and finances he sunk into the hobby, you were reminded of that missionary couple and their comments about Jesus' admonishment regarding treasures on Earth.

You've been seriously thinking about the clutter in your own life and finding ways to not only sell and/or discard the treasures you already have, but to buy and live on less. You're making good progress in this area and the practice of this teaching has opened your eyes in a new way regarding materialism and our relationship to it. You feel it's been laid on your heart to approach Tom about his attachment to the treasure he's accumulated here on Earth.

How would you go about it?
Well, since Tom is going to the same church as me, he probably enjoys the sermons he hears there, and the general ethic of the church, with our semi-regular service days. Money has been preached about quite a few times as well. One of the sermons about money and possessions that still resonates with me and others who have been there for years involved an example of a man who had been convicted by the Holy Spirit to give away a nice coat that belonged to his father who had passed, to someone who needed it. And the catch-phrase to summarize the lesson was, "live simply, so others can simply live." I'm assuming Tom is too new to have heard that, given the circumstances. I might recommend that sermon to him. The wife of one of the elders would also know if his collection could be given away to a nursing home or other needy community, if there's a need to do that (much better than I would). If she's there, I don't think she'd have any trouble seeing if he's open to donating them. I might be part of that conversation as well. If the Lord gave me words at the time, I like to think I would speak them, it's a bit fuzzier when I'm trying to imagine what words he would be giving me, rather than receiving them.
 
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Junia

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Well, since Tom is going to the same church as me, he probably enjoys the sermons he hears there, and the general ethic of the church, with our semi-regular service days. Money has been preached about quite a few times as well. One of the sermons about money and possessions that still resonates with me and others who have been there for years involved an example of a man who had been convicted by the Holy Spirit to give away a nice coat that belonged to his father who had passed, to someone who needed it. And the catch-phrase to summarize the lesson was, "live simply, so others can simply live." I'm assuming Tom is too new to have heard that, given the circumstances. I might recommend that sermon to him. The wife of one of the elders would also know if his collection could be given away to a nursing home or other needy community, if there's a need to do that (much better than I would). If she's there, I don't think she'd have any trouble seeing if he's open to donating them. I might be part of that conversation as well. If the Lord gave me words at the time, I like to think I would speak them, it's a bit fuzzier when I'm trying to imagine what words he would be giving me, rather than receiving them.

i like that church ethic very much. seems to encapsulate what Jesus teaches
 
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John Helpher

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Well, since Tom is going to the same church as me, he probably enjoys the sermons he hears there, and the general ethic of the church, with our semi-regular service days.

No, not semi-regular. Just Sunday. One day per week. If you're really on fire for God you might go to some mid-week function on Wednesday, but I suppose you could stretch 2 out of 7 to mean "semi-regular" attendance upon the Lord.

And the catch-phrase to summarize the lesson was, "live simply, so others can simply live." I'm assuming Tom is too new to have heard that, given the circumstances.

Nope, you don't need to assume anything. I laid out the conditions in the hypothetical. Tom is a regular at the church. But, regardless of what Tom has heard from someone else, the point of the hypothetical was about what you plan to communicate to Tom based on what you have heard from the teachings of Jesus.

I might recommend that sermon to him.

You might recommend that someone else talk to Tom about his storing up treasures here on Earth?

The wife of one of the elders would also know if his collection could be given away to a nursing home or other needy community,

This sentence implies there might be a reason why he could not give away his model car collection. Tom would probably be pretty happy to hear that...

if there's a need to do that (much better than I would).

Jesus said not to store up treasure here on earth. I guess you're suggesting taking that teaching seriously doesn't quite measure up to "need"?

If she's there, I don't think she'd have any trouble seeing if he's open to donating them.

Isn't that the crux of luke-warmness, though; people considering whether or not their open to obeying Jesus in this area or that area? I mean, if he's not open to selling the treasure he's stored up here on earth, what would you do about it?

I might be part of that conversation as well.

Why would you not be part of the conversation? In the hypothetical, God has laid it on your heart to talk to this man about his need to obey Jesus if he wants to be a Christian. Why would you leave it up to some other dude's wife to maybe do it for you?

If the Lord gave me words at the time,

Nope, not "if". The hypothetical clearly states the Lord has laid it on your heart to confront this man with the teachings of Jesus.

I like to think I would speak them, it's a bit fuzzier when I'm trying to imagine what words he would be giving me, rather than receiving them.

Quite honestly, I think the spirit of your post already indicates that you know what words he's most likely give you; (or, according to what you've described, what he'd give the wife of some other guy you'd lean on to go and do the work for you). You understand that he'd most likely have a problem giving up his treasured collection. That's what makes it his treasured collection; he loves it. You'll need some backbone if you want to genuinely confront him about this.
 
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Sketcher

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No, not semi-regular. Just Sunday. One day per week. If you're really on fire for God you might go to some mid-week function on Wednesday, but I suppose you could stretch 2 out of 7 to mean "semi-regular" attendance upon the Lord.
Oh no, we have weekly church services. When I said "service days" I meant that the church explicitly organizes events to help needy places in the community, and that happens semi-regularly, and is announced during the church services.

Nope, you don't need to assume anything. I laid out the conditions in the hypothetical. Tom is a regular at the church. But, regardless of what Tom has heard from someone else, the point of the hypothetical was about what you plan to communicate to Tom based on what you have heard from the teachings of Jesus.
I'd repeat parts of that sermon as I would be led, then.

You might recommend that someone else talk to Tom about his storing up treasures here on Earth?
If I'm going to imply that he shouldn't be keeping them (such as in Luke 12:33-34) I'd need to have an idea of whom he should give them to. I'm not going to tell somebody to give something away without an idea of whom to give it to, unless specifically led to do just that. Involving someone else who is more in the loop than I am in for community needs for this earthly treasure seems like a logical choice.

This sentence implies there might be a reason why he could not give away his model car collection. Tom would probably be pretty happy to hear that...
Actually, if we both know of a place that could be blessed by him giving them his collection, that takes away his excuse to not give it away. If there's nowhere that I know or that he knows to give it to, then he's got his excuse for keeping it.

Jesus said not to store up treasure here on earth. I guess you're suggesting taking that teaching seriously doesn't quite measure up to "need"?
No. If Nursing Home A has no need of the collection but Nursing Home B could benefit from it, Nursing Home B would be the logical choice to give it to.

Isn't that the crux of luke-warmness, though; people considering whether or not their open to obeying Jesus in this area or that area? I mean, if he's not open to selling the treasure he's stored up here on earth, what would you do about it?
If he's not open to obedience, I can't open him. My assumption is that if God is leading me to say something, he has a purpose for it. While it might be to test my obedience and nothing else, I find that unlikely in the context of this particular teaching of Jesus, and so I'm assuming that God wants to use his collection to bless one or more other people. Therefore, I'll do my best to achieve that end with what God has allowed me to know. After all, he expects a return on that (Luke 12:48).

Why would you not be part of the conversation? In the hypothetical, God has laid it on your heart to talk to this man about his need to obey Jesus if he wants to be a Christian. Why would you leave it up to some other dude's wife to maybe do it for you?
I'll do my part, but this doesn't mean that no other believer also has a part, especially someone who is both positioned to know where he might give that collection to, and who is also very gifted at initiating spiritual conversations.

Nope, not "if". The hypothetical clearly states the Lord has laid it on your heart to confront this man with the teachings of Jesus.
In which case, I'd have a clearer idea of what to say than when I'm answering a hypothetical in a forum post. My imagination is no substitute for what the Holy Spirit would tell me to say at the moment.

Quite honestly, I think the spirit of your post already indicates that you know what words he's most likely give you; (or, according to what you've described, what he'd give the wife of some other guy you'd lean on to go and do the work for you). You understand that he'd most likely have a problem giving up his treasured collection. That's what makes it his treasured collection; he loves it. You'll need some backbone if you want to genuinely confront him about this.
Sticking my nose in other people's business isn't backbone. Especially since we're talking about someone who might be resistant, I need to know where that collection ought to go to in order tell him who the Holy Spirit wants him to give it to. This is so that I can clearly lay out to him that he needs to give it away, make the point that this is from the Spirit instead of just some human opinion, and strip away his last excuse (that he would admit) for keeping it. Anything less than that would be less obedience than the Holy Spirit deserves.
 
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