Is the Queen the Head of the Anglican Church?

MarkRohfrietsch · May 30, 2020

seeking.IAM said:
No, but there are days in America when I find myself wondering if she would take us back if we only apologize for that little episode in Boston Harbor.

What about the Imperious and Majestic "Donald"? ROTFL

Junia · May 30, 2020

Radagast said:
I think that the point @ViaCrucis was making was that the original English church dates back long before "Catholic" differed from "Orthodox."

Sort of. Not quite. That was my point.

Although his 6th wife, Catherine Parr, was of a more Reformed bent, and she wrote a religious book (The Lamentation of a Sinner - Wikipedia). Henry accused her of the heresy of being a Protestant, but she survived him.

yes. i do love Tudor history- very fascinating

The Liturgist · May 30, 2020

Not David said:
I find it weird that one can be Anglican and having no associations with England.

The Anglican Communion is one of the largest communions of churches in the world (not even counting traditionalist Anglicans not in communion with the Church of England). The largest denominations after the Roman Catholic church, are the Eastern Orthodox with 230 million, the Anglican Communion with 110 million, the various Lutheran churches with 80 million, and then after that in size you have the Methodists, the Reformed churches and the Oriental Orthodox.

Methodism by the way is an offshoot of Anglicanism; John Wesley was a priest in the Church of England throughout his life. Worldwide, I would expect Anglicanism is the most popular of Protestant churches because of the beauty of Anglican worship, the large number of Anglican cathedrals (in most major North American cities for example, you will find the two largest and most splendid cathedrals to be Roman Catholic and Episcopalian/Anglican, and the latter is often larger and grander than the former).

In the US, in the 20th century, the Episcopal Church enjoyed very broad appeal and prestige until a serious of controversies involving liberal theology began to cause schisms as traditionalists were alienated (in several cases, intentionally) and a rapid decline in parish membership, which erupted in the late 1970s, although it was evident this could become a problem as early as the 1960s, when traditional Episcopalians attempted and failed to remove Bishop James Pike from the Diocese of San Francisco for heresy. Despite the problems jn the Episcopal Church and some other major Anglican churches, such as the Anglican Church of Canada and the Scottish Episcopal Church, the traditional ACNA and Continuing Anglican churches are doing quite well.

The traditional Anglican churches in Africa, Asia, South America and the Archdiocese of Sydney in Australia have also for the most part been experiencing remarkable growth and vitality.

The extreme popularity of Anglicanism, even today, I think is due to the dignity of most Anglican worship services, which, in traditional Anglican churches, are highly standardized thanks to the Book of Common Prayer. This book itself has also been very highly praised for the elegance of its literary style; the Book of Common Prayer, the works of William Shakespeare, and the Authorized Version (King James Version) of the Bible, translated primarily for use with it in the Church of England (which is why complete versions of the KJV, which are rare, include the Apocrypha, because the Anglican churches read the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament at Mattins and Evensong), are regarded by many as comprising the foundation of modern English. Additionally, the traditional language service books used by Lutherans and related denominations, for example, the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal used in the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and elsewhere, are derived from the Book of Common Prayer, and the traditional English translations of the liturgies of several other churches, for example, traditional English translations of Eastern Orthodox service books, tend to follow the literary style of, and use phraseology derived from, the Book of Common Prayer. In my own Congregational tradition, the best service book we ever had, Devotional Liturgies by Rev. John Hunter, was derived from the Book of Common Prayer.

The Liturgist · May 30, 2020

Radagast said:
In 330, Constantinople became the capital of the Eastern part of the Empire.

In 286, they moved the Western capital to Milan. In 402, they moved the Western capital to Ravenna. In 476, the Western Roman Empire vanished.

Well that’s not quite true; the Western Empire experienced catastrophic shrinkage in 476, but there was still an Imperial government in Rome up until the brief reign of the young emperor Romulus “Augustulus” at the end of the 6th century. Rome was then sacked again and the only remaining authority who could provide a semblance of government was Pope Gregory Diologos.

Radagast · May 30, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Well that’s not quite true; the Western Empire experienced catastrophic shrinkage in 476, but there was still an Imperial government in Rome up until the brief reign of the young emperor Romulus “Augustulus” at the end of the 6th century. Rome was then sacked again and the only remaining authority who could provide a semblance of government was Pope Gregory Diologos.

No doubt, but I don't think that what existed after 476 can be called a "powerhouse of the Roman Empire" by any stretch of the imagination.

Albion · May 30, 2020

The Liturgist said:
...catastrophic shrinkage in 476, but there was still an Imperial government in Rome up until the brief reign of the young emperor Romulus “Augustulus” at the end of the 6th century....

Radagast said:
No doubt, but I don't think that what existed after 476 can be called a "powerhouse of the Roman Empire" by any stretch of the imagination.

Romulus Augustulus came at the end of the 5th century. Maybe that's what is causing the problem here.

The Liturgist · May 30, 2020

Paidiske said:
Well, to be fair, it wasn't that long ago - certainly within living memory - that Australian clergy still vowed obedience to the queen. I know American Episcopalians never really did that, but I'd be curious to know how long that persisted in other places.

Here’s a fun fact: despite the slight inclination of Anglican parishes in what became the US towards the Loyalist cause in the Revolutionary War, more American Presidents have been members of the Episcopal Church than of any other. The Washington National Cathedral, which has become a popular venue for presidential funerals, is Episcopalian (and has its own armed police force to provide security owing to a perceived risk of terror attacks; to my knowledge it is the only church building in the US with its own police department, and the only other church complex I can think of with dedicated police is the Vatican City with its Gendarmes and Papal Swiss Guard).

And we do think that Catholics are associated with the Vatican; doesn't every Catholic bishop have to make regular ad limina visits...?

In the Latin Rite, at a minimum, yes. I am not sure if this applies to the Eastern Catholic sui juris churches such as the Maronites, Chaldeans, Ruthenians, Ukrainian Greek Catholics, et cetera.

If memory serves, historically, bishops returning from ad limina visits also had to have pontifical letters granting them permission to return to their diocese. I can’t recall where I read that, and I could be mistaken on this point.

Latin Rite (Western) Roman Catholic bishops have a number of restrictions placed on their power, and in my opinion are somewhat less powerful than the historic office of the episcopate would suggest, or compared to Orthodox and Anglican bishops (Eastern and Oriental Orthodox bishops, and Assyrian bishops of the Church of the East, probably have the most power within their dioceses of any bishops in churches which are exclusively episcopal in polity).

The Liturgist · May 30, 2020

Albion said:
Romulus Augustulus came at the end of the 5th century. Maybe that's what is causing the problem here.

Oof, you are correct. :doh:

The Liturgist · May 30, 2020

Radagast said:
No doubt, but I don't think that what existed after 476 can be called a "powerhouse of the Roman Empire" by any stretch of the imagination.

Indeed; only the Eastern Empire had any vitality past that point. It managed to last for nearly another millenium, however, which is quite a long time; after the fall of the Western Empire, the Eastern Empire lasted almost twice as long as Imperial rule had endured in Rome itself (from the end of the Roman Republic in the wake of the assasination of Gaius Julius Caesar and the rise to power of his nephew Octavian, e.g. Caesar Augustus, until the removal of the juvenile Romulus Augustus).

Paidiske · May 30, 2020

The Liturgist said:
The Washington National Cathedral, which has become a popular venue for presidential funerals, is Episcopalian (and has its own armed police force to provide security owing to a perceived risk of terror attacks; to my knowledge it is the only church building in the US with its own police department, and the only other church complex I can think of with dedicated police is the Vatican City with its Gendarmes and Papal Swiss Guard).

Police department as such, perhaps. In other cathedrals the security function is generally part of the role of the vergers. When I was a cathedral verger, it was my greatest fear that one day I would have to evacuate the building due to a bomb threat or the like. (Had happened, but never on my watch, fortunately). In that building it was almost impossible to do quickly and safely!

The Liturgist · May 30, 2020

Paidiske said:
Police department as such, perhaps. In other cathedrals the security function is generally part of the role of the vergers. When I was a cathedral verger, it was my greatest fear that one day I would have to evacuate the building due to a bomb threat or the like. (Had happened, but never on my watch, fortunately). In that building it was almost impossible to do quickly and safely!

Indeed, I have an extreme respect for vergers and ushers, because they really are on the frontline in this respect. Vergers also still in a typical cathedral also have certain ceremonial functions, do they not? Rev. Percy Dearmer in his Parson’s Handbook suggests they should be responsible for the timing and coordination of processions, among other things.

The police at the National Cathedral are fully armed with firearms, tasers, etc, have police cars, carry handcuffs, and can make arrests with the same law enforcement power as other police in their jurisdiction. So they’re a bit analogous to transit police, US Capitol Police, Postal Police, and other building or place security oriented police forces (for example, the former California State Police, whose sole job was security of the State Capitol, or the Los Angeles General Services Police, responsible for the security of City Hall and other municipal buildings, or the LA County Office of Public Safety, since merged with the LA County Sheriff’s Department, which prior to its merger was responsible for policing county parks, hospitals, and county-run government buildings). I believe there are only 20 or so officers at the National Cathedral PD, but that still makes it larger than many small town departments in the US, which often have fewer than 15 sworn officers (although in recent decades for cost reasons, many small towns have contracted policing out to the county sheriff in the US).

The Liturgist · May 30, 2020

Athanasius377 said:
Ok, I’ll bite. My Anglican Bona fides are that I spent 15 years in a continuing Anglican Church body. We were not part of the communion (meaning the Episcopal Church USA) not part of the Church of England.

The reformation in England is not the same as it was on the continent. The historic Anglican Church before the colonial period had a different history and practice and existed independently of Rome for centuries. It was brought under Roman jurisdiction in the Eighth century (correct me if I’m wrong @Albion I’m writing from memory which is pretty scary). The Historic Anglican Church (HAC) was greatly influenced by the monastic movement and to a lesser degree elements from Eastern Christianity. For example the Abbott or Abbess was often the chief pastor of a local HAC. Bishops did exist but functionally only in cities. You can still see this influence by the way some modern Anglican churches are laid out. The choir sits across either side of the chancel in front of the Rood Screen (think iconastasis less icons). This layout can still be seen in the great cathedrals including the National Cathedral in Washington DC. The Altar was behind the Rood. The choir positioned like monks in their stalls chanting antiphonally.

After Roman obedience the HAC still retained certain elements of its former self. Other practices from Rome were adopted like the dating of Easter and the Western style calendar. The chief rite was the Sarum rite from the practice at Salisbury cathedral. Instead of the simple collect you would in long litanies similar to the Eastern church. There’s so much I could say but if you want a basic primer check out Stephen Sikes book on Anglicanism.

Fast forward to the reign of Henry VIII who received papal dispensation to marry his brother’s widow Catherine. After Catherine did not produce a male heir And the fact Henry had huge appetites both carnally and worldly tried to get the pope the anull his marriage. Which for various and sundry reasons that I won’t go into did not. Henry then had theologians to declare the HAC was never supposed to be under Roman obedience. He then had himself declared head of the church. And although Henry flirted with the idea of an English and Lutheran political alliance stayed for all intents a faithful (religious) Roman Catholic. Was this assertion one of political expediency or one of theology. I do not know. Even after 20 years studying I’m not sure. No matter the break with Rome was real but not permanent.

The first Prayer Book was issued in 1549 which combined elements of several different liturgies but still mostly Roman in its orientation. While Edward VI was king another prayer book was issued in 1552 that was clearly Reformed. Mostly the same material but moved around to display it’s Reformed theology. Following Edwards death Queen Mary brought the church back to Roman obedience yet kept certain changes like keeping the great litany in English. After Mary’s death Elizabeth I we shall say instigated the Settlement of 1559. A new prayer book was issued and a balance struck between the various factions which had cropped up in the church. Similar though not the same as the Formula of Concord in the Lutheran church in 1580.

Fast forward to the aftermath of the English Civil war the Puritan branch largely left and a final prayer book was issued in 1662. It is lightly reformed keeping with the earlier settlement. This was normative liturgy until the 20th century. Officially this Church of England is Protestant yet retaining some forms of its earlier Catholic heritage. The Catholic revival in the mid 1800s had a large impact on the theology whereby the church became more accepting of this former heritage. You see the rise of Anglo Catholic practice that permeates the church to this day. However the role of the monarch is largely titular. The Archbishop of Canterbury wields more power for lack of a better term.

The Anglican church’s history is messy to say the least which is why this thread will struggle to answer questions like @Not David.

The ancient Sarum Rite was just a regional variation on the Roman Rite. The only Western Rite liturgies which were radically different from the Roman Rite were the Gallican Rite and those derived from it (such as the Ambrosian Rite still used in Milan, and especially the Mozarabic Rite, which is now sadly used in only one chapel at the cathedral in Toledo, and to a limited extent by a nearby monastery; in 1800 there were still seven Mozarabic Rite parishes around Toledo; this ancient rite is quite distinct from the Roman Rite).

Regarding long litanies like the Eastern Orthodox Litany of Peace, the Great Litany in the Book of Common Prayer represented something of a Western Revival of this concept. Historically it was read or chanted before Holy Communion. John Wesley desired that Methodist churches read it every Wednesday and Friday, in addition to fasting, according to the ancient custom, but sadly that didn’t happen.

Paidiske · May 30, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Vergers also still in a typical cathedral also have certain ceremonial functions, do they not? Rev. Percy Dearmer in his Parson’s Handbook suggests they should be responsible for the timing and coordination of processions, among other things.

Yes, marshalling processions (which is not unlike herding cats, only with more vestments). I wrote a reflection on what vergers do a while ago, which you can read here:

What does a verger do?

Radagast · May 30, 2020

Albion said:
Romulus Augustulus came at the end of the 5th century. Maybe that's what is causing the problem here.

And he ruled until 476, yes.

The Liturgist · May 31, 2020

Paidiske said:
Yes, marshalling processions (which is not unlike herding cats, only with more vestments). I wrote a reflection on what vergers do a while ago, which you can read here:

What does a verger do?

Splendid. By the way you may appreciate this hilarious piece, if you haven’t seen it before, from the epic satirical blog The Low Churchman’s Guide: Armed Vergers

The Liturgist · May 31, 2020

Paidiske said:
Yes, marshalling processions (which is not unlike herding cats, only with more vestments). I wrote a reflection on what vergers do a while ago, which you can read here:

What does a verger do?

Oh one other awesome thing about the ministry of vergers: one of the minor orders of the ancient church was that of doorkeeper, and it was a fairly important order, given that the early church tended to dismiss catechumens, energumens and penitents at different times, and while making no secret of the Old Testament and certain works of NT apocrypha deemed catechtically useful by, for example, St. Athanasius (The Shepherd of Hermas), regarded the four Gospels as something that one should be prepared to hear through the catechtical process, so the early church doorkeepers had quite a lot of doorkeeping to do. You can find traces of the now-obsolete customs of dismissing the catechumens in the Byzantine and Mozarabic liturgies, in the form of instructions intoned by the deacon (along with the classic “stamen kalos! Kyrie eleison!” one finds in the Byzantine and West Syriac liturgy).

Paidiske · May 31, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Splendid. By the way you may appreciate this hilarious piece, if you haven’t seen it before, from the epic satirical blog The Low Churchman’s Guide: Armed Vergers

I laughed.

This bit, though, "A prospective verger is chosen on the basis of his fearsome countenance and superior upper-body strength, the latter of which is required to wield the fearsome mace that is the emblem of his office," reminded me of some of the angst when I was appointed a verger. I was the first woman in that role in that cathedral, and some folk felt that I wouldn't be able to handle the "difficult" people and a man should have been appointed. (Because vergers do tend to get assaulted from time to time, by folks high on drugs or whatever). It became a point of pride in my ministry there that I had a manner with those folks that meant I was never physically hit.

We did have people causing problems in services from time to time. There was one woman who became well known for terrorising the city churches; she'd come in, screaming, storming into the sanctuary, throwing dirt... it was very sad; I gather she'd lost a son, and she somehow blamed the church, and seemed to have been driven half-mad in her grief.

Ignatius the Kiwi · May 31, 2020

Albion said:
The Church in England, then about 1400 years old, was no longer under the authority of the Bishop of Rome.

Would it be correct to say Henry the 8th usurped the Supremecy of the English Church?

The Liturgist · May 31, 2020

Paidiske said:
We did have people causing problems in services from time to time. There was one woman who became well known for terrorising the city churches; she'd come in, screaming, storming into the sanctuary, throwing dirt... it was very sad; I gather she'd lost a son, and she somehow blamed the church, and seemed to have been driven half-mad in her grief.

It’s very tragic when we encounter people who, usually as a result of bereavement or other experiences of unimaginable psychological trauma, have become disabled in this manner. I feel like our society stigmatizes these people to a horrible extent, who really are victims who have simply cracked in the face of horrors which many people judging them might well find to be unimaginable. I think we should avoid even calling such people mentally ill, but instead should call them mentally injured. I wish churches were still building hospitals to the same extent they were involved in that area as recently as the 1980s, and despite great improvements, I feel our connections with the mental health services are not what they should be. I recently discussed with you elsewhere the phenomenon of people turning up at churches, requiring us to serve as an entry point into both social services for the desperately impoverished and mental health for other people. I wish we had closer integration with these services, and I am continually frustrated by the inadequete funding for mental health and social services.

I also greatly respect that you were able to deal with the drug users and other varieties of unpleasant disruptive people without being hit. The objections you faced in assuming that role strike me as being entirely bizarre and nonsensical. I mean, are those people unaware of the existence of female police officers?

The Liturgist · May 31, 2020

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Would it be correct to say Henry the 8th usurped the Supremecy of the English Church?

Perhaps so, but the end result was an autocephalous church which had equal or greater distance from the monarchy as the Russian Orthodox Church in the Czarist era. And subsequent Anglican provinces like the Church of Wales and the Episcopal Church are akin to those Orthodox churches which have benefitted from both autocephaly and full independence from government intervention, for example, the modern day Romanian, Bulgarian and Georgian churches, which are the leading moral authorities in their respective countries, without being subject to the caprices of any civil authorities.

By the way, when I was a teenager, before I had the any personal experience of it, I made the spectacular mistake of writing off Anglicanism as something superficial, created to cater to the whims of Henry VIII, on closer inspection brought about by the process of maturity, I came to the realization that I had been fairly spectacularly wrong. Since that time I have made a conscious effort to not be dismissive of any of the historic traditions of Christianity.

Is the Queen the Head of the Anglican Church?

Unapologetic Apologist

Well-Known Member

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

comes and goes

Facilitator

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Clara bonam audax

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Clara bonam audax

comes and goes

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Clara bonam audax

Dissident

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Similar threads