Who Goes To Hell?

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There was a time when everyone went to the netherworld when they passed away: Jesus too because when he passed away on the cross; Jesus didn't go up, rather, he went down. (Matt 12:40, John 20:17, Acts 7:25-31).

When we take into consideration everybody who ever lived and died on this planet beginning with Adam until the day when people started going to heaven; then we're talking about a very large number of people. How did they all fit in the netherworld without overcrowding?

Well; it's evident that people exist in the afterlife as spirits. (Heb 12:22-23, 1Pet 3:18-20).

The feral man of Mark 5:1-13 and Luke 8:26-33 was possessed by a community of evil spirits who labeled themselves Legion. Webster's defines a legion as the principal unit of the Roman army comprising 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers with cavalry.

The legion of spirits that Christ exorcised from the man went out and possessed a herd of about 2,000 swine. That's a pretty good example of how spirits take up no room in the physical world; nor do they crowd each other. All 3,000-6,000 of those spirits managed to fit inside the bodily cargo area of just that one man.

That being the case, then the netherworld need not be a void. People can exist down there in solid rock because spirits don't need space, they just need a place.


NOTE: Any attempt to drill down to the heart of the Earth in search of the netherworld would be futile because it isn't a physical world, rather, it's a spirit world. Drilling could, and would, pass right through the very center of the netherworld and still not find it.
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FAQ: Do you not know it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance rather than threats of justice? (Rom 2:4)

A: If the Bible's God weren't so kind, then He wouldn't bother with giving His creatures advance notice of the horror in store for them in the afterlife.

Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say unto you my friends; Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.

Was Christ wrong to instill a fear of God within people's hearts? No; I think he was 110% justified. For example: when I was working as a professional welder for the US Army Corps of Engineers, we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein we were shown some grisly photographs of real life industrial accidents involving burns, chain saws, punctured eyes, explosions, falls, crane collapses, suffocation, crushing, and the like. Let me tell you something: those safety meetings got our attention, and really made a sharp distinction between the fool and the wise.

Prv 22:3 . . A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

The kindness of God has given the world fair and adequate notice of what to expect in the afterlife. Those who don't care about it one way or the other would be well advised to use what time they have remaining to begin mentally preparing themselves for the worst when they cross over to the other side.
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ClementofA

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Luke 19:26-27
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Where did that say anyone will NEVER be saved, but sadisticlly tortured throughout endless eons?

It's incredibly - lame - for a Jesus you think will monstrously fry people for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...

If that were His belief, why is it entirely absent from Scripture? Why is Scripture instead - full - of lame warnings like the above, ALL of which are perfectly harmonious with the many passages that support universalism. By quoting Lk.19:26-27 you only shoot your own dogma in the foot...yet again.

Got anymore - lame - ones you want to post - to add to the lists of those you already have?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
Where did that say anyone will NEVER be saved, but sadisticlly tortured throughout endless eons?...
Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. The Bible never says "eternal punishment" so it can't be true. "'Eternal' doesn't mean eternal and 'punishment' doesn't mean punishment."
Here is mine "Neither God, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever say clearly and unequivocally say that they will save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike, even after death so universal reconciliation is not true.
 
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ClementofA

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Here is mine "Neither God, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever say clearly and unequivocally say that they will save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike, even after death so universal reconciliation is not true.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.


Therefore if this argument is valid so is mine. If universal reconciliation is valid then Jesus should have said this clearly and unequivocally.

Since you think your argument is valid i.e. if Jesus meant "eternal" He would have said "endless" etc. Here is my version. If Jesus had intended to say all mankind would be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death He would have clearly, unequivocally said so at least once. But alas He did not.

If Scripture or Jesus had never clearly stated His view of universalism as truth, what is the loss? OTOH if endless tortures are true & Scripture/Jesus doesn't state it clearly, then the people are not warned & will not many more will go to endless tortures? Yes or no? Otherwise what point would there be in the warnings about endless tortures? Would they not, then, be useless warnings & the debates on the subject pointless?


Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.

● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.

I rest my case.


Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Could most modern translations be in error?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?
 
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ClementofA

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Logical fallacy. Argument from silence.

"if God was a believer in endless punishment....If Jude believed in endless punishment,..." logical fallacy. Argument from silence also trying to second guess God and Jude what they would have said under certain circumstances.

"In sum, the argument from silence, like all historical arguments, is always conjectural. But it is not, as some claim, a fallacy. It is the correct default inference from silence. That inference can be strengthened by relevant evidence of a positive kind, or by the continued silence of further evidence." https://www.umass.edu/wsp/history/outline/silence.html

"Howell and Prevenier state that arguments from silence face the difficulty that a historian can not just assume that an author would have recorded the fact in question; for if the fact did not seem important enough to an author it would have been excluded.
Argumentum ex silentio | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online

Clearly the above statement re "arguments from silence" does not apply to my argument. For it is clear that if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments He would have thought it "important enough" to include many times as a warning in the 27 books of the inspired NT Scriptures. That He did not do so proves that He rejected such a view. And the proof that He didn't include it is that the words (& expressions) which would have expressed it unambiguously were not used of eschatological punishment.

In this case it is a powerful argument: the superior words to express endlessness - IOW not the aion & aionion that Love Omnipotent usually employs - are never used by Him of eschatological punishment.

Further re "arguments from silence": "David Henige states that, although risky, such arguments can at times shed light on historical events.[5]" There are "Convincing applications" of the "arguments from silence":Argumentum ex silentio | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online


Furthermore, my argument has provided "evidence of absence":

"Evidence of absence is evidence of any kind that suggests something is missing or that it does not exist." Null Points: Absence of evidence and evidence of absence.

In this case the absence of the teaching of endless punishment in the New Testament.

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Could most modern translations be in error?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?
 
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Saint Steven

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How shall I describe the blessing that came to my own soul when Jesus Christ revealed to me that as potent as was the power of Adam's disobedience, mightier yet is the power contained in the OBEDIENCE OF THE SON OF GOD. All the languages and dialects of earth do not contain words meaningful enough to describe the immensity of the all embracing work of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. I fully expect that I will be misunderstood in these things, but I am assured by the Lord Jesus that one day the truth of it will be common knowledge, and all Christians and all people will be forced to acknowledge it. I suppose that all the arguments and persuasions in the world will not convince some saints today of the incontrovertible truth of the words under consideration: "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many (Greek: "the many" - all) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (Greek: "the many" - all)be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND" (Rom. 5:18-20). The Amplified Bible renders verse 20: "But then Law came in, only to expand and increase the trespass. But where sin increased and abounded, GRACE HAS SURPASSED IT AND INCREASED THE MORE AND SUPERABOUNDED."

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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FineLinen

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How shall I describe the blessing that came to my own soul when Jesus Christ revealed to me that as potent as was the power of Adam's disobedience, mightier yet is the power contained in the OBEDIENCE OF THE SON OF GOD. All the languages and dialects of earth do not contain words meaningful enough to describe the immensity of the all embracing work of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. I fully expect that I will be misunderstood in these things, but I am assured by the Lord Jesus that one day the truth of it will be common knowledge, and all Christians and all people will be forced to acknowledge it. I suppose that all the arguments and persuasions in the world will not convince some saints today of the incontrovertible truth of the words under consideration: "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many (Greek: "the many" - all) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (Greek: "the many" - all)be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND" (Rom. 5:18-20). The Amplified Bible renders verse 20: "But then Law came in, only to expand and increase the trespass. But where sin increased and abounded, GRACE HAS SURPASSED IT AND INCREASED THE MORE AND SUPERABOUNDED."

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kingdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Good grief, we are not only in the same book, we are on the same page of the Book of all books!

The transendent love of God =

koine huperballo=

To throw over or beyond.

Exceeding/ excelling/ surpassing.

English=

Definition of TRANSCENDENT

"The gospel of a God found in broken flesh, humility, and measureless charity has defeated all the old lies, rendered the ancient order visibly insufficient and even slightly absurd, and instilled in us a longing for transcendent love so deep that-if once yielded to-it will never grant us rest anywhere but in Christ." -David Bentley Hart-
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
"The gospel of a God found in broken flesh, humility, and measureless charity has defeated all the old lies, rendered the ancient order visibly insufficient and even slightly absurd, and instilled in us a longing for transcendent love so deep that-if once yielded to-it will never grant us rest anywhere but in Christ." -David Bentley Hart-
UR-ites are quite fond of quoting their favorite UR writers vs. scripture.
 
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Saint Steven

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"But God's free gift is not at all to be compared to the trespass. His grace is out of proportion to the fall of man. For if many died through one man's falling away - his lapse, his offense - MUCH MORE profusely did GOD'S GRACE and the free gift that comes through the undeserved favor of the one Man Jesus Christ, ABOUND and OVERFLOW to and for the benefit of many" (Rom. 5:15, Amplified). It is interesting to observe that while all Churches will acknowledge that by one man, and his offense, death passed upon all men, yet they cannot accept the glorious fact that MUCH MORE the grace of God shall abound unto all men. That one man's offense could cause such devastation of the human race does not provoke an argument, for the evidence is all around us. But when one Man, Christ Jesus, releases that GRACE, through His obedience to the will of God, then people find it hard to believe that this shall have the same coverage, abounding unto all men, and even MUCH MORE! Yes, there is also a MUCH MORE to be brought into account here. For the FREE GIFT is not the same as the offense, Paul says. For one act of disobedience brought judgment and condemnation. But by the time the FREE GIFT came on the scene, there wasn't just one offense to take care of, but now it must cover MANY OFFENSES and a multitude of sins. Therefore, how much greater is this free gift, able to go beyond ALL SIN and gain the victory, until all shall receive of His life.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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