Matthew 5:18

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For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So, we know the new heavens and new earth will be without sin. It makes me think about how that is accomplished. One such way is that some sins will simply be impossible to do. You cannot murder if there is no death. But the phrasing of that verse... "till heaven and earth pass..." which in Revelation 21:4 "..for the former things are passed away.." and the timing.. "...till all be fulfilled..."
The situation changes dramatically. Heaven and Earth that we know now pass away, all will be fulfilled. So that opens the possibility that God simply starts having laws pass away as well. Some like the aforementioned murder, there is not reason to have a law against an impossible thing, so that law, may just not exist anymore, it passes away with death itself. But other laws, that we know now, may still be possible to break in the situation, unless God declares those laws void as the former things have passed away and all has been fulfilled. Some laws are already considered no longer applicable to New Testament Christians, such as sacrifices, strict observance of the sabbath, and dietary laws. For instance, I think it'd be possible to make a "graven image" in eternity but the law would no longer apply as there's no risk of us worshiping the idol, since we will all know the true and living God and all worship will go to Him. Otherwise, an artist, could never paint a portrait of God, having seen His face and wanting to express that joy in art, because to do so would be sin. But if the law passes away, an artist could be free to make that artwork without sin.

Is this a possible way of achieving an eternity without sin, that what is sin is redefined?
 

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So, we know the new heavens and new earth will be without sin. It makes me think about how that is accomplished. One such way is that some sins will simply be impossible to do. You cannot murder if there is no death. But the phrasing of that verse... "till heaven and earth pass..." which in Revelation 21:4 "..for the former things are passed away.." and the timing.. "...till all be fulfilled..."
The situation changes dramatically. Heaven and Earth that we know now pass away, all will be fulfilled. So that opens the possibility that God simply starts having laws pass away as well. Some like the aforementioned murder, there is not reason to have a law against an impossible thing, so that law, may just not exist anymore, it passes away with death itself. But other laws, that we know now, may still be possible to break in the situation, unless God declares those laws void as the former things have passed away and all has been fulfilled. Some laws are already considered no longer applicable to New Testament Christians, such as sacrifices, strict observance of the sabbath, and dietary laws. For instance, I think it'd be possible to make a "graven image" in eternity but the law would no longer apply as there's no risk of us worshiping the idol, since we will all know the true and living God and all worship will go to Him. Otherwise, an artist, could never paint a portrait of God, having seen His face and wanting to express that joy in art, because to do so would be sin. But if the law passes away, an artist could be free to make that artwork without sin.

Is this a possible way of achieving an eternity without sin, that what is sin is redefined?
Sin happens because people are sinners. No one has to learn how to sin or even be told what sin is. It's as natural as breathing. If you remove the nature of sin, and replace it with a righteous nature, the issue of sin is dealt a blow. Christians no longer produce sin. We are still able to sin, but we respond to temptation now. Real Christians hate sin. It goes against our new, inner being. We can still sin because we have a body that responds to temptation and includes various lusts. Christians have the choice to give into temptation or resist it. If we give in, we become weaker in that area (for example, overeating). If we resist, we get stronger. When the body is transformed, there is no longer any capacity to sin even if tempted. Eventually, Satan will be interred and unable to tempt anyone. Until that day, we still have the enemies of the world, the flesh and Satan to contend with.
 
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venksta

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Everyone will understand "agape" love, and it will be firmly rooted in our hearts and soul. It will be too difficult to commit sins against God and others, because we will all finally be on the same page when it comes to God's love for us.

Mathew 22:36-40

36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the great and first commandment.

39 And a second like [unto it] is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

The thought of murder won't even cross our minds, if we truly value each other as Jesus commands. The thought of telling a lie will be gone, as we will have no fear in telling the truth. Gossiping will stop, since we will fully understand the ramifications that has when it comes to relationships. God's love conquers all.

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love suffereth long, [and] is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
 
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Jamdoc

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Everyone will understand "agape" love, and it will be firmly rooted in our hearts and soul. It will be too difficult to commit sins against God and others, because we will all finally be on the same page when it comes to God's love for us.

Mathew 22:36-40

36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the great and first commandment.

39 And a second like [unto it] is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

The thought of murder won't even cross our minds, if we truly value each other as Jesus commands. The thought of telling a lie will be gone, as we will have no fear in telling the truth. Gossiping will stop, since we will fully understand the ramifications that has when it comes to relationships. God's love conquers all.

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love suffereth long, [and] is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

But, by the law, making artwork of Jesus would be a sin, it's not done as a means of mocking, or creating an idol to worship, but by the letter of the law, it is sin. So if that law is still in place, and we're in a place where there can be no sin, that would mean, no artwork.
So you believe that every jot and tittle of the law will still stand even after the new creation and we'll all just follow every jot and every tittle of the current laws?
I think there's precedent for some laws passing away with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and more may pass away after everything is fulfilled.
 
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venksta

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But, by the law, making artwork of Jesus would be a sin, it's not done as a means of mocking, or creating an idol to worship, but by the letter of the law, it is sin. So if that law is still in place, and we're in a place where there can be no sin, that would mean, no artwork.
So you believe that every jot and tittle of the law will still stand even after the new creation and we'll all just follow every jot and every tittle of the current laws?
I think there's precedent for some laws passing away with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and more may pass away after everything is fulfilled.

Thats a good point. I'm an artist myself. I'm against images of Jesus, as they're obviously in no way accurate of his original appearance on earth. As well, I've seen people worship images of him. I myself wouldn't create art of Jesus, while I'm walking this world, it feels like sin to me, when thinking about it. Especially because of the law given originally. Now, in the age to come, *if* Jesus told us "its cool to make art of him", then, that would be his authority, given by God the Father. Maybe then, he'd trust us not to sin and worship the image, over him being there with us. If that ends up being so, I'd defintely make a painting of him, not having to wor

What ever the answer, it is God's truth in the end that prevails. I'm sure no one will rebel or anything if that law stood in place. Anyone wanting to go against it, obviously would then sin. However, I'm sure because of love, no one would question God. His answer and truth, will be peace in our hearts, always. Especially coming out of this dark and sinful world.

Also something to think about, all those laws about clean and unclean food. If you go back to Genesis, God's original intent wasn't for any creature, us and animals, to eat each other, but feed on vegetation. This may be the case in the next age, where we'll all be vegetarians.

There is a lot we don't know about the new heavens and new earth, and what exactly life will be like. I'd like God to keep as much of it as a surprise. Even though I have a ton of questions for God about it, haha. Questions like yours are great to ask, especially if they bring to light, areas of God's word we over look at times.
 
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Thats a good point. I'm an artist myself. I'm against images of Jesus, as they're obviously in no way accurate of his original appearance on earth. As well, I've seen people worship images of him. I myself wouldn't create art of Jesus, while I'm walking this world, it feels like sin to me, when thinking about it. Especially because of the law given originally. Now, in the age to come, *if* Jesus told us "its cool to make art of him", then, that would be his authority, given by God the Father. Maybe then, he'd trust us not to sin and worship the image, over him being there with us. If that ends up being so, I'd defintely make a painting of him, not having to wor

What ever the answer, it is God's truth in the end that prevails. I'm sure no one will rebel or anything if that law stood in place. Anyone wanting to go against it, obviously would then sin. However, I'm sure because of love, no one would question God. His answer and truth, will be peace in our hearts, always. Especially coming out of this dark and sinful world.

Also something to think about, all those laws about clean and unclean food. If you go back to Genesis, God's original intent wasn't for any creature, us and animals, to eat each other, but feed on vegetation. This may be the case in the next age, where we'll all be vegetarians.

There is a lot we don't know about the new heavens and new earth, and what exactly life will be like. I'd like God to keep as much of it as a surprise. Even though I have a ton of questions for God about it, haha. Questions like yours are great to ask, especially if they bring to light, areas of God's word we over look at times.

Yeah I really hope that some laws can change, there are times you recognize laws where the act itself, is not so grievous but God is making it sin because of a slippery slope effect. Such as graven images of heavenly things. Making a painting of Jesus can just be inspired, it can be devotion, it can be a form of worship and glorifying the Lord, but it presents an opportunity for idolatry, so God nips it at the bud, don't even provide the means for sin, stop it at its starting point.. or like, being angry, God designed us to feel anger (perhaps not in the next creation, but in this one it's a design), but Jesus told us not to feel angry at a brother or we're guilty of murder, because can lead down a slippery slope to murder.
If the slippery slope no longer is possible, some laws may be able to be removed for an act that by itself, would not be sinful if done with the right motives.
Art is one that really stands out to me because it can be beautiful and glorifying but wrong motives can lead to sin. But without the threat of idolatry.. we'd be free to create any artwork of what we love to our heart's content as an act of worship and devotion and glorification of God.
and that's a beautiful thought.
 
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So, we know the new heavens and new earth will be without sin. It makes me think about how that is accomplished. One such way is that some sins will simply be impossible to do. You cannot murder if there is no death. But the phrasing of that verse... "till heaven and earth pass..." which in Revelation 21:4 "..for the former things are passed away.." and the timing.. "...till all be fulfilled..."
The situation changes dramatically. Heaven and Earth that we know now pass away, all will be fulfilled. So that opens the possibility that God simply starts having laws pass away as well. Some like the aforementioned murder, there is not reason to have a law against an impossible thing, so that law, may just not exist anymore, it passes away with death itself. But other laws, that we know now, may still be possible to break in the situation, unless God declares those laws void as the former things have passed away and all has been fulfilled. Some laws are already considered no longer applicable to New Testament Christians, such as sacrifices, strict observance of the sabbath, and dietary laws. For instance, I think it'd be possible to make a "graven image" in eternity but the law would no longer apply as there's no risk of us worshiping the idol, since we will all know the true and living God and all worship will go to Him. Otherwise, an artist, could never paint a portrait of God, having seen His face and wanting to express that joy in art, because to do so would be sin. But if the law passes away, an artist could be free to make that artwork without sin.

Is this a possible way of achieving an eternity without sin, that what is sin is redefined?

In Matthew 28:20, Jesus said that he is with us always until the end of the age, which does not imply that he is leaving us at the end of the age, so saying that not the least part will disappear from the law until heaven and earth passes away and all is accomplished does not necessarily mean that any part of the law will pass away the moment that both those conditions are met, but rather both are ways of saying that it is never going to happen. Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's nature can't be ended without first ending God. It will always be against God's eternal nature to commit murder regardless of whether it is possible for us to commit murder, so even if that we no longer possible for us to do, then it wouldn't mean that God's eternal law against murder has passed away. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so none of them will ever pass away.
 
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So, we know the new heavens and new earth will be without sin. It makes me think about how that is accomplished. One such way is that some sins will simply be impossible to do. You cannot murder if there is no death. But the phrasing of that verse... "till heaven and earth pass..." which in Revelation 21:4 "..for the former things are passed away.." and the timing.. "...till all be fulfilled..."
The situation changes dramatically. Heaven and Earth that we know now pass away, all will be fulfilled. So that opens the possibility that God simply starts having laws pass away as well. Some like the aforementioned murder, there is not reason to have a law against an impossible thing, so that law, may just not exist anymore, it passes away with death itself. But other laws, that we know now, may still be possible to break in the situation, unless God declares those laws void as the former things have passed away and all has been fulfilled. Some laws are already considered no longer applicable to New Testament Christians, such as sacrifices, strict observance of the sabbath, and dietary laws. For instance, I think it'd be possible to make a "graven image" in eternity but the law would no longer apply as there's no risk of us worshiping the idol, since we will all know the true and living God and all worship will go to Him. Otherwise, an artist, could never paint a portrait of God, having seen His face and wanting to express that joy in art, because to do so would be sin. But if the law passes away, an artist could be free to make that artwork without sin.

Is this a possible way of achieving an eternity without sin, that what is sin is redefined?

You are looking at these verses as though they are only in the future, but there was no mention of "The new Heavens and New Earth" why then do you believe what Jesus said as a future event?

Why is it you are unable to comprehend Jesus Fulfillment of them?

Look at what these Verses clearly say, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Is Jesus coming back to Fulfill the Law, or was that accomplished before His death on the Cross?

He did say he came to Fulfill the Law, what then makes you believe He didn't accomplish that Fulfilling?

John 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Therefore, the Law was not done away with, but we on the other hand have become Dead to the Law.
 
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Jamdoc

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You are looking at these verses as though they are only in the future, but there was no mention of "The new Heavens and New Earth" why then do you believe what Jesus said as a future event?

Why is it you are unable to comprehend Jesus Fulfillment of them?

Look at what these Verses clearly say, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Is Jesus coming back to Fulfill the Law, or was that accomplished before His death on the Cross?

He did say he came to Fulfill the Law, what then makes you believe He didn't accomplish that Fulfilling?

John 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Therefore, the Law was not done away with, but we on the other hand have become Dead to the Law.

Because heaven and earth have not passed away yet. So they must be future things that happen. Some things were fulfilled at calvary but other things are in the future, the second coming of Christ, the end of this world and the beginning of the next, those are future fulfillments.

There are some things that become confusing though, because some laws we have been released from, such as the observance of the Sabbath on Saturday and the dietary laws, yet some laws are still in effect, we still shouldn't lie, or steal, or murder or commit fornication and so on. It used to be sin to work on a Saturday, now it's not, it used to be a sin to eat pork, now it's not.

So I wonder after Jesus comes back if it might be to make graven images of heavenly things is sin now, but in eternity, it won't be. That kind of thing. Not all laws will pass away, but some possibly could? If the harm from the acts that is the reason why something is sin is no longer present it might not need to be such a strict law anymore. as your children mature they don't need as many and as restrictive of rules. You told your child not to play in the street not because the play in the street by itself was bad, but because a car might hit them, so you tell them to not play in the street so that doesn't happen. But as they become older and more responsible, they can ride their bike on the street, knowing to watch for traffic. So I really do feel like, as we become spiritually mature, less things will become sinful for us. Same act with a different heart results in a glorification of God rather than a sin against him. Art is again, a good example of that.
 
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Because heaven and earth have not passed away yet. So they must be future things that happen.

Jesus was not giving a time table to look at for the passing of these things, He was giving an example of a great length of time such as when he said turn your cheek 70 x 7 he did not mean a literal 490 times before reacting, it meant never ending.

Jesus was not speaking to you or any Christian when He said these things, but to the Jewish people of that time, generation.

We as Christian are not under the Law, we are dead to the Law, the Law has been written upon our hearts, Jesus kept the Law and we are in Jesus.


Some things were fulfilled at calvary but other things are in the future, the second coming of Christ, the end of this world and the beginning of the next, those are future fulfillments.

It isn't just those things at Calvary, it was everything His whole life that He fulfilled concerning the Law.

It was just those things concerning the Law that He was speaking of, not everything in the future as being fulfilled.


There are some things that become confusing though, because some laws we have been released from, such as the observance of the Sabbath on Saturday and the dietary laws, yet some laws are still in effect, we still shouldn't lie, or steal, or murder or commit fornication and so on. It used to be sin to work on a Saturday, now it's not, it used to be a sin to eat pork, now it's not.

Your mixing Dietary Laws, with Moral Laws, and Ceremonial Laws.

Just because it is a Law, does not necessarily mean they all carry the same weight.

When God said Thou shalt not Kill, did He also say thou shalt not eat Pork?

You have been freed from the Law through Jesus Christ.

If you go about your life worrying about or trying to keep the Law, your not walking in Faith
 
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Jamdoc

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Jesus was not giving a time table to look at for the passing of these things, He was giving an example of a great length of time such as when he said turn your cheek 70 x 7 he did not mean a literal 490 times before reacting, it meant never ending.

Jesus was not speaking to you or any Christian when He said these things, but to the Jewish people of that time, generation.

We as Christian are not under the Law, we are dead to the Law, the Law has been written upon our hearts, Jesus kept the Law and we are in Jesus.




It isn't just those things at Calvary, it was everything His whole life that He fulfilled concerning the Law.

It was just those things concerning the Law that He was speaking of, not everything in the future as being fulfilled.




Your mixing Dietary Laws, with Moral Laws, and Ceremonial Laws.

Just because it is a Law, does not necessarily mean they all carry the same weight.

When God said Thou shalt not Kill, did He also say thou shalt not eat Pork?

You have been freed from the Law through Jesus Christ.

If you go about your life worrying about or trying to keep the Law, your not walking in Faith

So you already think it's not sin for a Christian to paint images of Christ?
 
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So you already think it's not sin for a Christian to paint images of Christ?

BINGO!!!

Why on earth would any rational human being ever believe such a thing.

Because in your mind, it would constitute a Graven Image?
 
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Jamdoc

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BINGO!!!

Why on earth would any rational human being ever believe such a thing.

Because in your mind, it would constitute a Graven Image?

Because some people still worship and offer prayer to those images.
 
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Is this a possible way of achieving an eternity without sin, that what is sin is redefined?

Bible tells it happens so that all those who get the eternal life, have God’s law written in their heart:

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:10-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Which is same as being born anew from God. And when one is born from God, he is righteous. And righteous person will want to do God’s will freely.

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

…The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63
 
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Well, I don't want to cause too much of a stink, but Catholics offer prayer to images and statues of Mary.

I would have bet a pile of money on your answer, just wanted to hear you say it.

Don't forget, there are a slue of other statues which have their own share prayer as well.

Are you saying because this is being done, they are going to hell?
 
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So, we know the new heavens and new earth will be without sin. It makes me think about how that is accomplished. One such way is that some sins will simply be impossible to do. You cannot murder if there is no death. But the phrasing of that verse... "till heaven and earth pass..." which in Revelation 21:4 "..for the former things are passed away.." and the timing.. "...till all be fulfilled..."
The situation changes dramatically. Heaven and Earth that we know now pass away, all will be fulfilled. So that opens the possibility that God simply starts having laws pass away as well. Some like the aforementioned murder, there is not reason to have a law against an impossible thing, so that law, may just not exist anymore, it passes away with death itself. But other laws, that we know now, may still be possible to break in the situation, unless God declares those laws void as the former things have passed away and all has been fulfilled. Some laws are already considered no longer applicable to New Testament Christians, such as sacrifices, strict observance of the sabbath, and dietary laws. For instance, I think it'd be possible to make a "graven image" in eternity but the law would no longer apply as there's no risk of us worshiping the idol, since we will all know the true and living God and all worship will go to Him. Otherwise, an artist, could never paint a portrait of God, having seen His face and wanting to express that joy in art, because to do so would be sin. But if the law passes away, an artist could be free to make that artwork without sin.

Is this a possible way of achieving an eternity without sin, that what is sin is redefined?

This verse you quoted applies to prophecy which Jesus has to fulfill not really to passing away laws like murder and so on.
Also these laws like do not make graven image do not apply to us Christians today. 10 commandments are obselote only Love God and love neighbour as yourself are two laws for us today.

If you think about it most things here on earth are either motivated by sex , money or lust which all of them are not possible in heaven , streets are made out of gold and gold has no value there is that common , no pain or hunger , can't have sex so no lust urges.
Murder is not possible cuz people have eternal life.
 
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Jamdoc

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I would have bet a pile of money on your answer, just wanted to hear you say it.

Don't forget, there are a slue of other statues which have their own share prayer as well.

Are you saying because this is being done, they are going to hell?

Not necessarily, that is dependent on whether they have faith in what Jesus did for them. But I do think it is sin to offer prayers to anyone but God in Jesus' name.
1 Timothy 2:5 couldn't be more clear on who our mediator is and it's not Mary, or any saints.

I think right now, with us loving Jesus, and knowing the true and living God that if we were to make art of Jesus it's not really a danger for us to make it into an idol that we pray to and worship but because other people might there's still danger of it being a stumbling block for our brothers and sisters 1 Corinthians 8:9
 
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