Is it a sin if one calls their parents mom and dad instead of mother and father

Junia · May 17, 2020

ken777 said:
Call people what they want to be called. To deliberately offend someone by using a title or name they do not like is a sin.

does this apply to misgendering? like if a transperson has changed their sex and they insist we call them by their new name are we sinning if we don't do that? my friend is trans (female to male) and has a new name but i still call her by her old female name. not intentionally to cause upset, but i dont think of her as male. am not used to it yet. she will always be a woman to me

Daniel Marsh · May 28, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
does this apply to misgendering? like if a transperson has changed their sex and they insist we call them by their new name are we sinning if we don't do that? my friend is trans (female to male) and has a new name but i still call her by her old female name. not intentionally to cause upset, but i dont think of her as male. am not used to it yet. she will always be a woman to me

Now, I get it, since you are old enough, just call them by their first names. With the one who changed use both the new and old name for him or her.

Junia · May 29, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
Now, I get it, since you are old enough, just call them by their first names. With the one who changed use both the new and old name for him or her.

thanks. yes, i want to be courteus to them.

RyCanadian · Jan 25, 2021

Nope its not a sin.

The Liturgist · Feb 4, 2021

Radrook said:
What is it that you perceive as potentially offensive about using the words Mom and Dad?
In the NT Christians who are born again by God's holy spirit are described as calling God "abba" or "daddy" or "papa" instead of the formal father.

So if God himself accepts a term of endearment other that the formal "father" then I see no scripturally-based reason why earthly human parents should deem it inappropriate or disrespectful.

Strong's Greek: 5. Ἀββᾶ (Abba) -- Abba, father

Note that while there is certainly nothing wrong with referring to ones parents as “mom” or “dad”, it is an urban legend and entirely untrue that “Abba” means “Daddy.” It is a Semitic root that means Father. ABN, Abun, in the Syriac form, and ABN, Abouna is the Arabic form. There was a former member on this forum, who apparently left before I joined, as I have not been able to reach out to him, but whose posts I have enjoyed, named Steve Caruso, who addressed this issue in some detail (he is an Aramaic scholar).

The Liturgist · Feb 4, 2021

ATL-GA-STATE-SPORTSFANx☦️ said:
I don't think so, but I don't know what the KJV says about calling parents "mom" and "dad"

Nothing but the sound of crickets and the odd pin drop.

DragonFox91 · Jun 9, 2021

If you think that's bad, now they're calling mom's 'birthing people'.

LeGato · Nov 17, 2021

Akjv · Sep 16, 2023

thelordskingdom777 said:
As long as the parents are ok with them saying mom and dad and even with them saying they have the permission to say that they got their name from their mom and dad instead of saying that they were named after their mother and father? Does the bible talk about various punishments that are to be given if one says mom and dad instead of mother and father?

Matt 23: 9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

The Liturgist · Sep 16, 2023

DragonFox91 said:
If you think that's bad, now they're calling mom's 'birthing people'.

Indeed, which is horrible, unnatural and disgusting.

The Liturgist · Sep 16, 2023

Akjv said:
Matt 23: 9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Are you actually arguing that we cannot refer to our biological fathers as Dad or Father because of that voice? Because such an argument as that is literally nonsense, for not only is it out of context with the rest of the narrative in which it is included (which is a condemnation against those who enjoy wielding Rabbinical authority), but suffers from this obvious problem: If our Lord had meant for us to literally not refer to anyone as Father, St. Stephen the Protomartyr, the first man to die for his faith in Christ, who had been ordained a deacon by the Apostles earlier in Acts, referred to the Rabbis who judged him as “Father”, and then in the First Epistle to the Corinthians, the Holy Apostle Paul refers to himself as their “Father in Christ.” Since the inspired New Testament does not call them out for this error, we can feel safe in asserting that they did not disobey our Lord in using the word Father to refer to other men.

People who jump to wild and inaccurate conclusions about what Christ our God and Savior (2 Peter 1:1) meant when he said “Call no man Father” and “call no man Teacher” et cetera need to read more of the Bible, and more specifically the New Testament, and to remember to read it in a manner that is referentially coherent with how they have read it elsewhere, for they are engaging in a fallacy brought about by eisegesis, which is the reading of one verse outside of the context of the rest of Sacred Scripture.

It almost seems like whoever originated this error about “call no man Father” in the context of anti-Roman Catholic polemics must have read some of the Old Testament and some of the New Testament, and was making an effort to read the Gospel of Matthew end to end, but had not yet reached Acts or 1 Corinthians, but rather paused and went “Aha! So the Roman Catholics are wrong yet again!”

The Liturgist · Sep 16, 2023

LeGato said:
No.

A pleasure to meet you by the way. Have you met my friend @MarkRohfrietsch who is a Deacon in the LCC (the Canadian division of the LCMS)? I was at an LCMS church a few weeks ago by the way and the service was gorgeous. I also went to LCMS parochial school as a boy.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 16, 2023

The Liturgist said:
A pleasure to meet you by the way. Have you met my friend @MarkRohfrietsch who is a Deacon in the LCC (the Canadian division of the LCMS)? I was at an LCMS church a few weeks ago by the way and the service was gorgeous. I also went to LCMS parochial school as a boy.

Not a Division of the LCMS, but an autonomous sister Church in full fellowship. Easy assumption as we do use the same service book and share the same publishing house. We do have our own Sems. but are free to utilize those of the LCMS and our other autonomous sister Churches.

Akjv · Sep 16, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Are you actually arguing that we cannot refer to our biological fathers as Dad or Father because of that voice? Because such an argument as that is literally nonsense, for not only is it out of context with the rest of the narrative in which it is included (which is a condemnation against those who enjoy wielding Rabbinical authority), but suffers from this obvious problem: If our Lord had meant for us to literally not refer to anyone as Father, St. Stephen the Protomartyr, the first man to die for his faith in Christ, who had been ordained a deacon by the Apostles earlier in Acts, referred to the Rabbis who judged him as “Father”, and then in the First Epistle to the Corinthians, the Holy Apostle Paul refers to himself as their “Father in Christ.” Since the inspired New Testament does not call them out for this error, we can feel safe in asserting that they did not disobey our Lord in using the word Father to refer to other men.

People who jump to wild and inaccurate conclusions about what Christ our God and Savior (2 Peter 1:1) meant when he said “Call no man Father” and “call no man Teacher” et cetera need to read more of the Bible, and more specifically the New Testament, and to remember to read it in a manner that is referentially coherent with how they have read it elsewhere, for they are engaging in a fallacy brought about by eisegesis, which is the reading of one verse outside of the context of the rest of Sacred Scripture.

It almost seems like whoever originated this error about “call no man Father” in the context of anti-Roman Catholic polemics must have read some of the Old Testament and some of the New Testament, and was making an effort to read the Gospel of Matthew end to end, but had not yet reached Acts or 1 Corinthians, but rather paused and went “Aha! So the Roman Catholics are wrong yet again!”

I have never heard anyone say posting a verse in arguing, Now I have. Sounds like you are the one looking for an argument. here is another
Matt23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. If all ye are brethren the brother is the correct title not Rabbi and not Father

The Liturgist · Sep 16, 2023

Forgive me, I knew that but I forgot in the moment. When I think of another church in communion with y’all, I think of the AALC, which, correct me if I’m wrong, is not present in Canada (although I suppose they could setup shop there with a “CCLC”, but that would be pointless and such duplication would lay the groundwork for a future schism). Which reminds me, insofar as WELS is in Canada, what do they call themselves?

The LCMS and LCC are so much alike, right down to having an English District, that I tend to think of you all as Canadians originally from Missouri who make pilgrimages to St. Louis. I jest of course, as we have discussed, the LCMS and LCC were founded by the descendants of the doctrinally Orthodox Lutheran half of the Church of Prussia, with the descendants of the Calvinists (who in Prussia included the Royal House of Hohenzollern, which produced the last German Emperor, Kaiser Wilhelm II). In contrast Saxony had Lutheran monarchs and also the “Saxon system of economics” which my friend Jan Bachmann explained as “In Chemnitz they produce, in Leipzig they sell, in Dresden they waste the money, and in Munich they are envious.” And the most beautiful Lutheran church I have been in anywhere in the world is the Nicholaskirche in Leipzig, which was, along with the Thomaskirche, under the musico-liturgical control of Johann Sebastian Back during his tenture as Thomaskantor. These days Thomaskirche gets most of the attention due to its excellent boys choir (fortunately the ~~Reichskirche~~ Evangelical Church in Germany hasn’t done away with it in the interests of the political correctness that pervades both the it and the Catholic Church in Germany) and the Bachorgel, which is an extremely important instrument as it is tuned so that A = 466 Hz, which was the tuning used in Leipzig while Bach was alive before the ISO standard of A = 440 Hz was adopted. However, the Nicholaskirche was an extremely important site in the history of the downfall of the DDR, in that protests against the government were held for days prior to the opening of the Berlin Wall, and the study door of the parish proved sufficient to keep the Stasi from forcing their way in (of course, they eventually would have brought out an APC and smashed their way through with much loss of ife, but the Berlin wall collapsed). Touchingly, when I visited the parish with my mother in 2001, we noticed the paint on the kneelers was worn off from the fervent prayers. Nicholaskirche also has an amazing organ with an otherworldly sound.

The Liturgist · Sep 16, 2023

Akjv said:
I have never heard anyone say posting a verse in arguing, Now I have. Sounds like you are the one looking for an argument. here is another
Matt23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. If all ye are brethren the brother is the correct title not Rabbi and not Father

I am not looking for an argument, I am trying to prevent the promulgation of an erroenous interpretation of what Christ our God said.

And if what you say is true, then the Bible would not record the Holy Martyr Stephen the Deacon or the Holy Apostle Paul using the word in reference to the Sanhedrin, and themselves, respectively.

Are you daring to suggest that the Holy Apostle Paul sinned when he referred to himself as the Father in Christ of the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians ch. 4? For St. Paul wrote, in verses 14 through 17, the folllowing:

“I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church.”

It would be impudent for a son to call the man who raises him “Brother” and it would violate the Fifth Commandment (of the Ten), in which we are commanded to honor our father and mother, by which it is clearly meant our biological or adoptive parents.

Frankly, this is the first time I have ever seen anyone make the claim it to be sinful for a son to refer to their biological father as “brother” since even those who make the erroneous claim that we should not refer to Presbyters as our Fathers-in-Christ, as St. Paul referred to himself will concede that referring to our biological father as “Father” or “Dad” or “Daddy” or “Pop” or “Papa” etc. is entirely acceptable, due to the Fifth Commandment, since usually most people know the ten commandments even if they have not read the New Testament enough to notice St. Paul calling himself the “Father-in-Christ” of the Corinthians.

Akjv · Sep 16, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Are you daring to suggest that the Holy Apostle Paul sinned when he referred to himself as the Father in Christ of the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians ch. 4? For St. Paul wrote, in verses 14 through 17, the folllowing:

It would be impudent for a son to call the man who raises him “Brother” and it would violate the Fifth Commandment (of the Ten), in which we are commanded to honor our father and mother, by which it is clearly meant our biological or adoptive parents.

Father IN Christ is 100% different than a biological Father. Paul knew that when he said Father IN Christ.
When a biological man and his biological son are both saved by Jesus Christ they become brethren IN Christ not biological brethern
Father In Christ and biological Father can not be used as meaning the same.

The Liturgist · Sep 17, 2023

Akjv said:
Father IN Christ is 100% different than a biological Father. Paul knew that when he said Father IN Christ.
When a biological man and his biological son are both saved by Jesus Christ they become brethren IN Christ not biological brethern

The father of a child has a special Scriptural responsibility to raise that child in the faith of Christ and in so doing becomes their Father-in-Christ as well as their biological or adoptive father. And it would violate the Fifth Commandment for a son to call his father “brother.” And furthermore you continue to miss the point our Lord was making in the Gospel according to Matthew, that we must not take pleasure in honorific titles such as father or teacher.

And indeed, in the same epistle of Corinthians Paul talks about those chosen by God for different ministries, including teacher.

Thus, as a Christian pastor, my prescription for you is this: before I discuss this matter with you any further I request and require you to read or reread Deuteronomy chapter 5, which contains the Decalogue, and the First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, and the Gospel of Luke and its sequel, Acts, both by St. Luke the Evangelist, which restates the verses you refer to in the Gospel of Matthew and contains some additional content I feel you need to read, and then I will discuss this with you if you commit to also reading Ecclesiastes and Proverbs. I also require that you affirm the Nicene Creed and pray the Lord’s Prayer, and the Jesus Prayer, the latter being “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, a Sinner” and the prayer “Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal One, Have Mercy on Us.”

If after doing all of that you still remain convinced that Christ our True God intended for us to not call our biological or adoptive parents “Father” or “Dad” or “Daddy” or “Papa” but rather “Brother”, I will discuss the matter with you further and I might even be prepared to concede to your argument, but in the absence of you reading and praying those scriptures and prayers I have required as a condition for further discussion of this topic, I cannot discuss this with you as I believe you have misread and misinterpreted the Gospel of Matthew, and in discussing the matter with you in a public forum, I would be facilitating the propagation of a doctrinal error.

God bless you.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 17, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Forgive me, I knew that but I forgot in the moment. When I think of another church in communion with y’all, I think of the AALC, which, correct me if I’m wrong, is not present in Canada (although I suppose they could setup shop there with a “CCLC”, but that would be pointless and such duplication would lay the groundwork for a future schism). Which reminds me, insofar as WELS is in Canada, what do they call themselves?

The LCMS and LCC are so much alike, right down to having an English District, that I tend to think of you all as Canadians originally from Missouri who make pilgrimages to St. Louis. I jest of course, as we have discussed, the LCMS and LCC were founded by the descendants of the doctrinally Orthodox Lutheran half of the Church of Prussia, with the descendants of the Calvinists (who in Prussia included the Royal House of Hohenzollern, which produced the last German Emperor, Kaiser Wilhelm II). In contrast Saxony had Lutheran monarchs and also the “Saxon system of economics” which my friend Jan Bachmann explained as “In Chemnitz they produce, in Leipzig they sell, in Dresden they waste the money, and in Munich they are envious.” And the most beautiful Lutheran church I have been in anywhere in the world is the Nicholaskirche in Leipzig, which was, along with the Thomaskirche, under the musico-liturgical control of Johann Sebastian Back during his tenture as Thomaskantor. These days Thomaskirche gets most of the attention due to its excellent boys choir (fortunately the ~~Reichskirche~~ Evangelical Church in Germany hasn’t done away with it in the interests of the political correctness that pervades both the it and the Catholic Church in Germany) and the Bachorgel, which is an extremely important instrument as it is tuned so that A = 466 Hz, which was the tuning used in Leipzig while Bach was alive before the ISO standard of A = 440 Hz was adopted. However, the Nicholaskirche was an extremely important site in the history of the downfall of the DDR, in that protests against the government were held for days prior to the opening of the Berlin Wall, and the study door of the parish proved sufficient to keep the Stasi from forcing their way in (of course, they eventually would have brought out an APC and smashed their way through with much loss of ife, but the Berlin wall collapsed). Touchingly, when I visited the parish with my mother in 2001, we noticed the paint on the kneelers was worn off from the fervent prayers. Nicholaskirche also has an amazing organ with an otherworldly sound.

We call that period "The Age of Orthodoxy".

Actually, there is a "gentlemen's agreement that precludes activity of our Synods within another's jurisdiction. The English District Parishes in Canada preceded the formation of Lutheran Church Canada, so are "grandfathered" in. Most of not all are currently being served by LCC Pastors because of the fellowship agreement. There is one about 12 miles from where I live; their Pastor is from LCC, but as Pastor of a LCMS ED Congregation presently has no standing with regard to LCC polity, but he is welcome and does attend the Pastoral Circuit Meetings with all the LCC guys.

There are other anomalies, we have a couple joint parishes where one is LCMS and the other is LCC, but separated by the Canada US border. On in Sarnia, the other in Western Canada.

AALC have no presence in Canada, but as I mentioned, they are in full fellowship with the LCMS, which gives us kind of an unofficial fellowship with them. My former LCC Pastor has accepted and is serving at a call in Iowa at an AALC Parish. He had to complete a Colloquy process before the AALC would approve the call; but an LCMS Pastor would also have to complete the same process before accepting a call. AALC are currently in negotiation with LCC regarding full, declared fellowship. It is likely be in place very soon according to a couple Synodical insiders.

.

The WELS Parishes in Canada are few and far between, and since they broke off fellowship with the LCMS before LCC came into existence, they can do as they please.

There are also a couple more "radical" former LCC Parishes that broke fellowship and are now free Churches, and have called clergy from outside our synod, but they don't coune. They tend to be more "rad-trad" and their membership and clergy tend to embrace a conspiracy theory mentality regarding all things from theology al the way through politico-economics, and anti immigration. One such Pastor frequently sends text messages to our clergy chewing them out; my former Pastor got his R's handed to him by this pastor for accepting the AALC call.

LOL.

Akjv · Sep 17, 2023

The Liturgist said:
The father of a child has a special Scriptural responsibility to raise that child in the faith of Christ and in so doing becomes their Father-in-Christ as well as their biological or adoptive father. And it would violate the Fifth Commandment for a son to call his father “brother.” And furthermore you continue to miss the point our Lord was making in the Gospel according to Matthew, that we must not take pleasure in honorific titles such as father or teacher.

And indeed, in the same epistle of Corinthians Paul talks about those chosen by God for different ministries, including teacher.

Thus, as a Christian pastor, my prescription for you is this: before I discuss this matter with you any further I request and require you to read or reread Deuteronomy chapter 5, which contains the Decalogue, and the First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, and the Gospel of Luke and its sequel, Acts, both by St. Luke the Evangelist, which restates the verses you refer to in the Gospel of Matthew and contains some additional content I feel you need to read, and then I will discuss this with you if you commit to also reading Ecclesiastes and Proverbs. I also require that you affirm the Nicene Creed and pray the Lord’s Prayer, and the Jesus Prayer, the latter being “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, a Sinner” and the prayer “Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal One, Have Mercy on Us.”

If after doing all of that you still remain convinced that Christ our True God intended for us to not call our biological or adoptive parents “Father” or “Dad” or “Daddy” or “Papa” but rather “Brother”, I will discuss the matter with you further and I might even be prepared to concede to your argument, but in the absence of you reading and praying those scriptures and prayers I have required as a condition for further discussion of this topic, I cannot discuss this with you as I believe you have misread and misinterpreted the Gospel of Matthew, and in discussing the matter with you in a public forum, I would be facilitating the propagation of a doctrinal error.

God bless you.

How do you explain Mark 3:
31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.

32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
I think you have separating IN Christ from Biological beings.
I read in Eph 2 that the old is no longer used it now NC

Is it a sin if one calls their parents mom and dad instead of mother and father

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