20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

DavidPT said:

This is yet another example of where some of your thinking and my thinking on some of these things are miles apart.

IMO, the following is the more correct way to understand this part in Revelation 6:11---- little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

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The souls of Rev 6:10 were seen before Satan was released from the pit. These were opened in the 5th seal. So the little season here was the period the souls that John saw under the alter that were commanded to rested. They started their rested well before the 42 months of the beast.

However, you are correct, their fellow servants that should be killed as they were, are the saints that were killed by the beast. Only after the beast ascended from the pit and went into perdition. (Rev 17:8)

How could these 2 little seasons be the same. The little season started well before the start of the little season of the beast for 42 months. But the season of Rev 6:11 did continue even after the beast was loose from the pit, and all the way until the resurrection at the 2nd coming of the Lord. So the little season of the souls of Rev 6:11 was much longer than 42 months.

Certainly we are on the same page here?

DavidPT said:

This connects with the following, for one.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Which then connects with the following.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Based on this alone, and there are numerous other Scriptures I could bring up as well, how you conclude that the little season mentioned in Revelation 6:11 is not meaning any of the events I submitted above from Revelation 12 and Revelation 13, defies logic.

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Yes, all of these all connect. But not the little season of Rev 6:11. That season started way before the 42 months of the beast, but continued to the same end point.

We can agree here too, right?

DavidPT said:

What also defies logic is how anyone, in light of what Revelation 20:4 tells us in regards to there already being martyrs during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit, that this same 42 months is actually meaning after the thousand years rather than prior to them.

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The martyrs of Rev 20:4 occurred immediately when the beast ascended from the pit and went into perdition. The bible says that he overcome and killed the saint when he was given the mouth. Then, "all" the rest whose names were not written in the book of life worshiped the beast for 42 months.

So the fellow servants saints that are to be killed of (Rev 6:11) which are the saints of (Rev 13:7) do join up with those souls under the alter (Rev 6:11) or in heaven (Rev 20:4), while they all rest together with Christ until the resurrection day. Their souls were seen beheaded and reigning with Christ for the remaining duration of the little season.

DavidPT said:

I don't agree with Preterists on numerous issues, yet the majority of them, if not all of them, are also Amil, and that many of them at least agree, from what I have gathered from past discussions by some of them, that the 42 month reign of the beast is before the thousand years, and not after the thousand years like some other Amils tend to think. These Preterist Amils at least have the chronology of events correct, while some other Amils don't. As to the latter, these particular Amils are basing their arguments on incorrect chronology of events, thus the reason for my arguments against their position.

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No, the 42 months of the little season is definitely after the 1000 years.

DavidPT said:

According to Revelation 20:4, since there are already martyrs during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit, any right minded thinking person is not then going to place this 42 month reign after the thousand years where it doesn't belong and can't fit, but is instead going to place this 42 month reign as already fulfilled and in the past when the the thousand years initially begin.

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The martyrs are there prior to the end of the 42 months. There is no text that says that Satan was not released and then kills the saints.

The bible says they reigned 1000 years. The 1000 years is not set to end at a single day. The term "a thousand years" is merely figurative language that represents the period between Christs resurrection and the resurrection of the saints. The Saints getting beheaded is not taking away satans little season to make the sinners worship him. You are trying to set a condition where there can be no overlaps. There are overlaps to everything. I am sure he is not revealed as the man of sin, son of perdition the very instant he is loose from the pit. I'm sure it took a few days to get organized. In fact, it is most likely the killing of the saints, that exposes who he is. and that starts the 42 months or little season. You don't read of any more saints dying by the hand of the beast after Rev 13.

DavidPT said:

This presents a major problem for some versions of Amil. The 42 month reign has to precede the 2nd coming. Totally impossible if some Amils think that the thousand years began 2000 years ago, and that according to Revelation 20:4 the 42 month reign of the beast has to be prior to the beginning of the thousand years. This of course is not a problem for Premil. Premil is the only position that actually logically works with these chronology of events. Per Premil it would look like this---the 42 month reign of the beast followed by the 2nd coming and the beginning of the thousand years. As can be seen, the 42 month reign does precede the 2nd coming without contradicting anything in Revelation 20:4.

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No, I am sorry.

My position is the only one that doesn't contradict Revelation anywhere, nor any other book in the bible.

This is also what Paul said in (2 Thess 2:1-8). That the Lord will be revealed in heaven at the gathering of the saints, only after the working of Satan. Whom the Lord will consume with the brightness of his coming

The position that works is what I stated:
1) The 1000 year MK period
2) The 42 month reign of Satan
3) The resurrection of just and unjust
4) The gathering of the saints in the air
5) The destruction of Satan with the wicked
6) GWT
7) Hell
8) The end of the 1st heaven and earth
9) New jerusalem

claninja said:

The saints are waiting to be avenged during the 5th seal:

Revelation 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

The saints are avenged at the destruction of the harlot.

Revelation 19:2 for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

The beast is used to destroy the harlot as part of God's plan. God uses the beast to avenge the blood of the saints.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

So how can the resting of the saints until they are avenged = the little season of satan, IF the saints are avenged PRIOR to the destruction of the beast and PRIOR to satan being released according to the premil understanding?

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First of all, most Premils don't place the events you have submitted, as being fulfilled when you are taking them to mean, which I'm assuming you're likely meaning the first century. To most Premils all of these things you submitted are still future events. With that in mind I'm not grasping the issue you are trying to raise since these particular events have yet to be fulfilled according to most Premils? This is why it's difficult for some of us, at least me anyway, to discuss some of these things with Preterists. IMO, Preterists and Premils typically agree on the chronology of events. Where they don't agree are the timing of said events.

As to me, the avenging you submitted above, it comes after the fulfilling of the little season, where I see this little season as yet to be entirely fulfilled, since it can't be entirely fulfilled until all of their brethren, that should be killed, is entirely fulfuilled first.

If you feel I have misunderstood your point altogether, regardless how I addressed it, maybe you can try explaining from a different angle and see if that further clarifies for me what you were attempting to convey?

claninja said:

So how can the resting of the saints until they are avenged = the little season of satan, IF the saints are avenged PRIOR to the destruction of the beast and PRIOR to satan being released according to the premil understanding?

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I need to be clear here. We need to try and get on the same page. If by satan's little season you are meaning the little season after the thousand years, I'm not arguing that the little season in Revelation 6:11 is meaning the little season after the thousand years. I'm arguing that there are two little seasons, one before the thousand years, another after the thousand years. And why not? It's not like satan doesn't do some of the same things twice. Does not Revelation 20 indicate that satan deceives the nations, then is prevented from deceiving the nations while he is bound, then when he is loosed he deceives the nations yet again?

Why am I arguing there are two little seasons? Because of Revelation 20:4, for one. Those martyred for refusing to worship the beast are martyred, according to my thinking, during the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11, and that that little season is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, and that Revelation 20:4 places these events as already fulfilled before satan is ever loosed from the pit. When he is loosed from the pit, that is called a little season also, except it can't be meaning the little season in Revelation 6:11 if that little season has already been fulfilled according to Revelation 20:4, before satan is ever loosed from the pit.

TMarcum said:

The souls of Rev 6:10 were seen before Satan was released from the pit. These were opened in the 5th seal. So the little season here was the period the souls that John saw under the alter that were commanded to rested. They started their rested well before the 42 months of the beast.

However, you are correct, their fellow servants that should be killed as they were, are the saints that were killed by the beast. Only after the beast ascended from the pit and went into perdition. (Rev 17:8)

How could these 2 little seasons be the same. The little season started well before the start of the little season of the beast for 42 months. But the season of Rev 6:11 did continue even after the beast was loose from the pit, and all the way until the resurrection at the 2nd coming of the Lord. So the little season of the souls of Rev 6:11 was much longer than 42 months.

Certainly we are on the same page here?

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I agree that the souls that are told to rest a little season, that they started their rest long before that. As to this little season they are told to rest, the beginning and ending of it would still be future to them when they initially began crying out for revenge. IOW, they weren't already resting a little season yet, since this little season was yet to be fulfilled.

To somewhat sum things up via my perspective---There is this little season that has to be fulfilled first, before God can begin enacting revenge on the martyrs already resting under the altar in heaven. This little season they are told to rest is paralleling the time their fellowservants also and their brethren, are being martyred back on earth. And that this is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast when their fellowservants also and their brethren, are being martyred back on earth. This is what Revelation 20:4 is referring to per this part---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

And according to that verse, these things have already been fulfilled before satan is ever loosed from the pit. It therefore stands to reason, that the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 is not the same little season recorded in Revelation 20. Even though you agree they are not the same little season, there are other Amils, SG being one, that apparently think they are the same little season. The bulk of my arguments are basically against his version of Amil, where numerous other Amils basically hold the same views.

This presents a major problem for this version of Amil, such as SG and other Amils hold to. In order for their version of Amil to even work, the 42 month reign of the beast has to follow the thousand years. Impossible according to Revelation 20:4 since that verse is indicating that the 42 month reign of the beast has already been fulfilled and in the past before satan is ever loosed.

TMarcum said:

The position that works is what I stated:
1) The 1000 year MK period
2) The 42 month reign of Satan
3) The resurrection of just and unjust
4) The gathering of the saints in the air
5) The destruction of Satan with the wicked
6) GWT
7) Hell
8) The end of the 1st heaven and earth
9) New jerusalem

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Your position is already contradicting Revelation 20:4, though. Just like SG, you too have the 42 month reign of the beast after the thousand years. The 42 month reign of the beast is not after the thousand years, it's prior to that. Not according to me, but according to Revelation 20:4, for one. All I'm doing is what anyone should be doing, and that is agreeing with the texts, not contradicting them instead.

sovereigngrace said:

I am surprised that you would question that. There are countless examples of that in the OT. I preached on one such case on Tuesday night at Bible study.

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Thank you for those examples. I thought you were saying that they came together much like we do. You said -Within this group they could collectively worship God and enjoy close spiritual intimacy with each other.

So we both agree that Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race.

Now it seems you are telling me that God made the nation of Israel as a light for the Gentiles, but yet knowing full well they could not obey Him.

So that makes God unjust and foolish to make something that would not work & expect it to work.

sovereigngrace said:

God is not unjust and foolish. I honestly don’t get why you would think that. With every man, entity or nation that God has used, He is dealing with imperfect people who fall short. Ultimately, Him aim is to glorify Himself and reveal Himself to each generation. What He has done from the beginning is his prerogative, and in His infinite wisdom is right and perfect, even though he has used imperfect vessels. It has worked to reveal Himself to each generation. It is not for us to question Him. Everything He does is right and perfect.

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Of course it is for us to question as God has written the WHY`s in His word. That is a poor excuse for your answer.

And of course God is not unjust and foolish, but you are presenting Him as such - to make something for a purpose which it cannot fulfil.

Yes God works with individuals however WHY would God MAKE a SPECIFIC NATION for a SPECIFIC PURPOSE and leave the fulfilment up to fallen man. That is what you seem to be saying. I am trying to get you to think of God`s mercy for what He made - a SPECIFIC NATION.

sovereigngrace said:

Until you take your premillennial glasses off there is no way that you’re going to understand the different recaps in the book of Revelation. Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Just for the record, in case you are not aware, I fully agree that Revelation is not chronological from start to finish, and that some parts are simply different perspectives of other parts. But even so, no one can deny that there is strict chronology per the following though----satan is initially not bound---satan is bound---satan is loosed, therefore no longer bound. This 42 month reign of the beast has to chronologically fit somewhere.

Either it fits chronologically like such---1) the 42 months are fulfilled before satan is bound in the pit---2) the 42 months are fulfilled while satan is bound in the pit---3) the 42 months are fulfilled after satan is loosed from the pit.

I honestly can see the logic in 3) except Revelation 20:4 indicates this is not the correct conclusion to arrive at. Revelation 20:4 is undeniably telling us that those martyred for not worshiping the beast, that these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast, and that they have already been martyred during this 42 month reign before satan is ever loosed from the pit. Obviously then, we can remove 3) as a viable option for when this 42 month reign of the beast is fulfilled.

And since the fulfilling of the 42 month reign requires satan's participation, we can remove option 2) also, since it makes no sense that this 42 month reign would be paralleling the thousand years. That only leaves option 1). Only Premil works with that option. Your version of Amil certainly doesn't. So if anyone needs to remove their Premil or Amil glasses, it for sure wouldn't be Premils needing to that in this particular case.

sovereigngrace said:

God created Adam to have perfect communion but he failed. Why would God make a specific man for a specific purpose and leave the fulfillment up to fallen man? This reasoning is faulty. God knows what He is getting when He raises any man/men up to fulfill any office/purpose. He is getting imperfection! But He is glorified through it when man runs to Him for help and favor.

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Adam was created perfect, Israel was NOT perfect.

DavidPT said:

Your position is already contradicting Revelation 20:4, though. Just like SG, you too have the 42 month reign of the beast after the thousand years. The 42 month reign of the beast is not after the thousand years, it's prior to that. Not according to me, but according to Revelation 20:4, for one. All I'm doing is what anyone should be doing, and that is agreeing with the texts, not contradicting them instead.

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Are you actually trying to say that because Satan was set free for a little season in Rev 20:3, that in verse Rev 20:4, we have a whole new 1000 year period when the saints reign with Christ for another 1000 years?

It seems like this is what you are implying.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:1-3 is one view that illustrates what is happening "with Satan" during the 1000 year period.
Rev 20:4-6 is another view of what is happening to the "saints and sinners" during the "same" 1000 year period.

Because the little season in mentioned in verse 3 does not mean that the same little season will not occur in the same timeline with the saints and sinners in verses 4-6.

Does this seem logical to you? Or would you have preferred John had written it in Rev 20:4 too, so we know for sure it's the same period?

DavidPT said:

Just for the record, in case you are not aware, I fully agree that Revelation is not chronological from start to finish, and that some parts are simply different perspectives of other parts. But even so, no one can deny that there is strict chronology per the following though----satan is initially not bound---satan is bound---satan is loosed, therefore no longer bound. This 42 month reign of the beast has to chronologically fit somewhere.

Either it fits chronologically like such---1) the 42 months are fulfilled before satan is bound in the pit---2) the 42 months are fulfilled while satan is bound in the pit---3) the 42 months are fulfilled after satan is loosed from the pit.

I honestly can see the logic in 3) except Revelation 20:4 indicates this is not the correct conclusion to arrive at. Revelation 20:4 is undeniably telling us that those martyred for not worshiping the beast, that these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast, and that they have already been martyred during this 42 month reign before satan is ever loosed from the pit. Obviously then, we can remove 3) as a viable option for when this 42 month reign of the beast is fulfilled.

And since the fulfilling of the 42 month reign requires satan's participation, we can remove option 2) also, since it makes no sense that this 42 month reign would be paralleling the thousand years. That only leaves option 1). Only Premil works with that option. Your version of Amil certainly doesn't. So if anyone needs to remove their Premil or Amil glasses, it for sure wouldn't be Premils needing to that in this particular case.

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The text does not tell us in Rev 20:4 when the 42 month period starts. Remember, this was a king or Leader. He was alive and in power before going into perdition.

He killed the saints and then the 42 months started his timeline when he went in perdition. We can read the next few chapters what happens during the 42 months. The saints are no where in the writings of these passages. Only those whose names are not written in the book of life are mentioned with and worshiping the beast.

This is because they loved not their lives unto death and overcome (Rev 12:11). These are the saints of Rev 20:4 being beheaded.

Next verse is the exact point of time in the bible when the clock started that said, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time (Rev 12:12).

This is the started of the 42 months when they are beheaded (Rev 12:11).

TMarcum said:

Are you actually trying to say that because Satan was set free for a little season in Rev 20:3, that in verse Rev 20:4, we have a whole new 1000 year period when the saints reign with Christ for another 1000 years?

It seems like this is what you are implying.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:1-3 is one view that illustrates what is happening "with Satan" during the 1000 year period.
Rev 20:4-6 is another view of what is happening to the "saints and sinners" during the "same" 1000 year period.

Because the little season in mentioned in verse 3 does not mean that the same little season will not occur in the same timeline with the saints and sinners in verses 4-6.

Does this seem logical to you? Or would you have preferred John had written it in Rev 20:4 too, so we know for sure it's the same period?

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I don't know what you mean by another thousand years? There is only one period of a thousand years. Either that thousand year period precedes the 2nd coming(Amil), or that it follows it(Premil). This 42 month reign of the beast is what solves the when. This 42 month reign must be followed by the 2nd coming, that is the first thing to note. Most Amils, thus not all Amils, and all Premils, agree that the 2nd coming follows the 42 month reign of the beast.

As to satan being set free for a little season according to Revelation 20:3, that is clearly meaning after the thousand years he is bound has expired. The thousand years mentioned in verses 2-6, these events run in parallel. IOW, while satan is in the pit during the thousand years, those who have part in the first resurrection are living again and are reigning with Christ during this very same thousand years satan is bound in the pit.


Getting back to my point about the 42 month reign of the beast solving the 'when', thus either Amil or Premil. The question is, when does the 42 month reign of the beast take place, in relation to the thousand years? Before the thousand years? During the thousand years? Or after the thousand years? This is where Revelation 20:4 can help us immensely ---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

The first question that must be asked and answered is this. When are they martyred? Answer: during the 42 month reign of the beast, obviously. Who could deny that, and why, if they did?

The next question that must be asked and answered is this. Are they martyred before the thousand years, during the thousand years, or after the thousand years? Obviously it can't be the latter if they are already martyred and live and reign with Christ a thousand years before satan is ever loosed from the pit. Clearly the thousand years precede satan's loosing from the pit.

And since the 42 month reign can't logically happen after the thousand years, there goes your version of Amil out the window altogether, since your version of Amil can't logically place the 42 month reign of the beast after the thousand years where you need it to fit in order for your version of Amil to even work. Even though you all may still insist it fits after the thousand years, regardless, that still does not make it true if it defies logic when you all insist it fits there.

Speaking for myself, if something is at least logical, I'm open to that something being a possibility. Unfortunately for Amils there is nothing logical about the 42 month reign of the beast occurring after the thousand years when Revelation 20:4 is already undeniably telling us it doesn't and can't occur after the thousand years since it already occurs way before then, according to the texts involved.

sovereigngrace said:

So you reject the idea of millions of Christian martyrs over this past 2000 years? In your opinion: that is just an illusion?

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Where are you getting that idea from what I wrote? Of course there has been millions of Christian martyrs over this past 2000 years, thus another reason Amil can't possibly be the correct position. This past 2000 years you are referring to would be the thousand years in Revelation 20 to Amils such as yourself. That means you have saints being martyred during the thousand years. There are no saints being martyred during the thousand years. There is not even saints being martyred after the thousand years either. Any and all saints being martyred take place prior to the beginning of the thousand years. And since there have been saints martyred by the millions for the past 2000 years, we can know from that alone that the thousand years have not begun yet, because like I already pointed out, no saints are being martyred during the thousand years.


Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Obviously, these in verse 2 include those saints John initially sees the souls of in Revelation 20:4. At this point in time, meaning as of Revelation 15:2, no more saints will be martyred ever again for forever, and that it is instead the time for the wrath of God to start being unleashed. IOW, verse 2 above fulfills this part in Revelation 6:11----a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


And when the vials of wrath begin to pour out, we are then in the time of the 6th seal, where the 6th seal also involves the 2nd coming.


I fully realize you were initially Premil, and that it is impossible for you at this point to switch back to Premil again. I get it. For example, I used to be Pretrib, but since I switched it is now impossible for me to switch back to Pretrib again. Why? The same reasons you can't switch back to Premil. Because you are convinced Amil is the correct position instead, the same way I am convinced post trib is the correct position rather than Pretrib.

But even so, the debate between Premil and Amil is a bit more complex and involved than the debate between Pretrib and postrib is. Pretrib is easily debunked, though Pretribbers obviously disagree. Premil is not easily debunked, because if it was, Amils should be able to prove with Scripture that the 42 month reign of the beast fits after the thousand years, regardless that Revelation 20:4 proves otherwise. And that Amils should be able to easily show in Revelation 12 where the beginning and the ending of the thousand years fit in that chapter, since that chapter covers the past 2000 years and then some, the same 2000 years Amils insist have been meaning the thousand years.

sovereigngrace said:

And? Did God know Adam would mess up?

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And...yes God knew Adam would mess up and God was merciful.
And....Yes God knew that Israel could not obey Him and God will be merciful to them too.

God is just and merciful.