LDS Brigham Young and His Blood Atonement

Jamesone5 · May 29, 2020

Peter1000 said:
You always forget we are believers, we are not non-believers.

My post 370 says that I can explain God with great detail (paraphrasing), but you cannot explain the Trinity.

Your post 381 says this:
I did not say that--the
Bible says very clearly--"the mystery of godliness"

Do you not agree with the Bible?

So it looks like you have ducked the challenge to explain in great detail the Trinity. You have defaulted to a scripture in the bible that refers to God as "the mystery of godliness" instead.
Like you don't know how to explain the Trinity with any specifics, so I will say that God is a mystery and leave it at that.
Then you add rather arrogantly, Do I believe what the bible says?

My challenge to you is: Give me the scripture in the bible that says "the mystery of godliness", since I could not find it in the NT.

And second are you going to hide behind a "mystery of God" scripture, or are you going to give me detailed analysis of the Trinity?

As I said, it is eternal life to know God and his Son, Jesus Christ. IOW if you do not know God and his Son intimately, you will not have eternal life. He has given us much information in the bible to know Him, so give me the details of the Triune God.

i would say that you Mormons are starting out as the ones who are trying to tell us there are 3 Gods.

So, prove it by the Bible where it listed 3 God or even two,

Even the verse is question list Christ as God---not one of the Gods.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory

I have not ducked anything, but you have to prove to me this is one of the Gods that we are talking about Who was manifested in the flesh, as He was.

He is the way · May 29, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
i would say that you Mormons are starting out as the ones who are trying to tell us there are 3 Gods.

So, prove it by the Bible where it listed 3 God or even two,

Even the verse is question list Christ as God---not one of the Gods.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory

I have not ducked anything, but you have to prove to me this is one of the Gods that we are talking about Who was manifested in the flesh, as He was.

(New Testament | Hebrews 1:1 - 9)

1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Peter1000 · May 29, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
i would say that you Mormons are starting out as the ones who are trying to tell us there are 3 Gods.

So, prove it by the Bible where it listed 3 God or even two,

Even the verse is question list Christ as God---not one of the Gods.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory

I have not ducked anything, but you have to prove to me this is one of the Gods that we are talking about Who was manifested in the flesh, as He was.

So if God was manifested in the flesh, God must be a compounded, perfect, resurrected, exalted man. Good, I am glad we have that straight.

I know you are going to focus on "was", but since God is unchanging, if God was in flesh and bone, by definition, he is still in flesh and bone today, compounded.

Peter1000 · May 29, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
i would say that you Mormons are starting out as the ones who are trying to tell us there are 3 Gods.

So, prove it by the Bible where it listed 3 God or even two,

Even the verse is question list Christ as God---not one of the Gods.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory

I have not ducked anything, but you have to prove to me this is one of the Gods that we are talking about Who was manifested in the flesh, as He was.

At the baptism of Christ. God the Father in the sky, God the Son, on the earth, coming out of the Jordan river, and God the Holy Spirit coming down from heaven and finally coming to rest on Jesus. (Matthew 3:19)

3 Gods, in 3 different locations, at exactly the same time.

At Stephens murder. Stephen looks into the air and sees God the Son, standing on the right hand of his God, God the Father. 2 Gods standing side-by-side. Stephen was even shown the glory of God the Father and Jesus was standing next to the glorious being. (Acts 7:55-56)

When John sees God sitting on his throne, and he sees Jesus (the lamb) come to the throne and receives from the hand of He who sits on the throne, a book. In this scene you have God the Father sitting on the throne, and you have God the Son standing before God the Father receiving a book. 2 Gods in 2 different places, at exactly the same time. (Revelations 5:6-8)

There are other biblical examples, but these 3 should suffice.

Again, according to you, not the bible, Christ cannot be God, because your God is made up of 3 Persons, not just 1 Jesus.

Jamesone5 · May 29, 2020

Peter1000 said:
So if God was manifested in the flesh, God must be a compounded, perfect, resurrected, exalted man. Good, I am glad we have that straight.

I know you are going to focus on "was", but since God is unchanging, if God was in flesh and bone, by definition, he is still in flesh and bone today, compounded.

Where did Jesus Christ as God go?

Peter1000 · May 29, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Where did Jesus Christ as God go?

Jesus, God the Son is sitting on the right hand of his God and Father, God the Father. They are putting together the plans for God the Son, Jesus's second coming. Hope I live to see the day.

Jamesone5 · May 29, 2020

Peter1000 said:
At the baptism of Christ. God the Father in the sky, God the Son, on the earth, coming out of the Jordan river, and God the Holy Spirit coming down from heaven and finally coming to rest on Jesus. (Matthew 3:19)

3 Gods, in 3 different locations, at exactly the same time.

At Stephens murder. Stephen looks into the air and sees God the Son, standing on the right hand of his God, God the Father. 2 Gods standing side-by-side. Stephen was even shown the glory of God the Father and Jesus was standing next to the glorious being. (Acts 7:55-56)

When John sees God sitting on his throne, and he sees Jesus (the lamb) come to the throne and receives from the hand of He who sits on the throne, a book. In this scene you have God the Father sitting on the throne, and you have God the Son standing before God the Father receiving a book. 2 Gods in 2 different places, at exactly the same time. (Revelations 5:6-8)

There are other biblical examples, but these 3 should suffice.

Again, according to you, not the bible, Christ cannot be God, because your God is made up of 3 Persons, not just 1 Jesus.

Why can He not be God?

you are assuming way too much here

At Stephens murder. Stephen looks into the air and sees God the Son, standing on the right hand of his God, God the Father. 2 Gods standing side-by-side. Stephen was even shown the glory of God the Father and Jesus was standing next to the glorious being. (Acts 7:55-56)---Peter1000

The actual verses, instead of your version

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he,being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

No God the Father as you assume and the term Son of Man is used to describe the glory of God as the verse says. And you without the Holy Spirit would hardly see what Stephen saw.

Really not going to get into your Revelations verses because there again--no Holy Spirit so ----- you cannot see what John saw.

Jamesone5 · May 29, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Jesus, God the Son is sitting on the right hand of his God and Father, God the Father. They are putting together the plans for God the Son, Jesus's second coming. Hope I live to see the day.

Well be prepared to be surprised as you butchered the Acts verses.

And what is this coming up with the plans?

More Mormon fantasy?

Peter1000 · May 30, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Why can He not be God?

The Church of Jesus Christ believes that Jesus is God, because we believe in 3 separate and distinct Gods that make up the 1 true God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each of the members of this Godhead are Gods, by their own status, but the 3 together make up the 1 true God.

Your God, however, is not made up of 3 separate and distinct Gods, but is made up of 3 distinct persons. Who are 1 inseparable God. To now say that Jesus is God, is not true. Because your God is not just Jesus, but 3 persons. Take anyone of them out of the Trinity, and the Trinity falls apart, right in front of your eyes.

In a nutshell, your God is not just Jesus. Your God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It is these 3 distinct persons who make up your 1 true God, not just Jesus, but all 3 persons.

That is why I have always maintained that your God is not biblical, because the bible distinctly says that Jesus is God. You want your cake and eat it too. But your Nicean Triune God stops you from eating the biblical cake. IOW your Triune God does not equal just Jesus.

No God the Father as you assume and the term Son of Man is used to describe the glory of God as the verse says. And you without the Holy Spirit would hardly see what Stephen .

OK, your version: no God the Father, and the term Son of Man is used to describe the glory of God. I am not sure if in your version Stephen sees Jesus?
OK, my version: Jesus,(the Son of Man) is standing on the right side of God (or the glory of God).
Now here is the verses:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he,being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

You must admit 2 things:
1) Jesus = Son of Man. Jesus calls himself the Son of Man 20 times in the NT, right? So Son of Man I believe is just another name for Jesus. Not ( some kind of a description of the glory of God (I am not sure how the words, "the Son of Man" describes the glory of God anyway).

2) Stephen saw someone or some thing standing at the right hand of someone or some thing, Right? So fill in the blanks for me. "being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and _________ standing at the right hand of ______.

Your version would be : blank 1 = ?, blank 2 = something about the Son of man describing the glory of God.

My version would be: blank 1 = Jesus, blank 2 = God, And Jesus in verse 55 is "the Son of Man" in verse 56. And the glory of God or God in verse 55 = God in verse 56.
In my own words, My version says that Stephen saw God the Son (Jesus or "the Son of Man) standing on the right side of his God, God the Father.

My version is coherent, yours is disinformation to deflect the truth that this is a pure example that God and Jesus are 2 separate and distinct Gods. Stephen saw it and reported it, and it does not fit the Triune God theory and so you have to awkwardly defend something that is not there.

And believe me, with your explanation, don't talk to me about the Holy Spirit guiding you.

Peter1000 · May 30, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Well be prepared to be surprised as you butchered the Acts verses.

And what is this coming up with the plans?

More Mormon fantasy?

Read my reply to your non-response to Acts 7:55-56 (for you to use the word "butchering" is interesting)

Do you think Jesus hasn't got a plan for what he is going to accomplish when he comes the second time?

Peter1000 · May 30, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Why can He not be God?

you are assuming way too much here

At Stephens murder. Stephen looks into the air and sees God the Son, standing on the right hand of his God, God the Father. 2 Gods standing side-by-side. Stephen was even shown the glory of God the Father and Jesus was standing next to the glorious being. (Acts 7:55-56)---Peter1000

The actual verses, instead of your version

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he,being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

No God the Father as you assume and the term Son of Man is used to describe the glory of God as the verse says. And you without the Holy Spirit would hardly see what Stephen saw.

Really not going to get into your Revelations verses because there again--no Holy Spirit so ----- you cannot see what John saw.

You can answer post 409, or you can answer this short version.

Here is our scripture:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he,being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

And you say about it (post 407): "No God the Father as you assume and the term Son of Man is used to describe the glory of God as the verse says. And you without the Holy Spirit would hardly" see what Stephen saw.

So now lets fill in the blanks, as to what the Bible says Stephen saw:
"being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and ________ standing at the right hand of _____.

Fill in these 2 blanks and see if it matches your interpretation of this scripture. Thanks.

Peter1000 · May 30, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Why can He not be God?

you are assuming way too much here

At Stephens murder. Stephen looks into the air and sees God the Son, standing on the right hand of his God, God the Father. 2 Gods standing side-by-side. Stephen was even shown the glory of God the Father and Jesus was standing next to the glorious being. (Acts 7:55-56)---Peter1000

The actual verses, instead of your version

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he,being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

No God the Father as you assume and the term Son of Man is used to describe the glory of God as the verse says. And you without the Holy Spirit would hardly see what Stephen saw.

Really not going to get into your Revelations verses because there again--no Holy Spirit so ----- you cannot see what John saw.

You didn't talk about the baptism scene.

You had a non-response to Acts

And you said I'm not even going to get into Revelations

So there you go, I give you 3 perfect examples of the 1 true God being 3 separate and distinct Gods from the bible and your response was woefully short.

The baptism (Matthew 3:19) God the Son on the earth, at the exact same time God the Father was speaking from Heaven, at the exact same time the Holy Spirit was coming down from God the Father and to dwell in God the Son.

The murder of Stephen (Acts 7:55-56) Up in the air or heavens, God the Son Jesus standing on the right side of God the Father, who showed Stephen His glory. And the Holy Spirit at the exact same time that Jesus was standing on the right hand of God, was in Stephen on the earth.

The throne of God (Revelations 5) The one sitting on the throne (God the FAther) had a book from his right hand, to Jesus (the Lamb), who is standing in front of God the Father and takes the book from God's right hand. The Holy Spirit it not mentioned in this scripture. 2 Gods, 1 sitting on a throne, 1 standing in front of the throne.

3 perfect examples of Mormonism 101.

Jamesone5 · May 30, 2020

Peter1000 said:
You can answer post 409, or you can answer this short version.

Here is our scripture:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he,being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

And you say about it (post 407): "No God the Father as you assume and the term Son of Man is used to describe the glory of God as the verse says. And you without the Holy Spirit would hardly" see what Stephen saw.

So now lets fill in the blanks, as to what the Bible says Stephen saw:
"being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and ________ standing at the right hand of _____.

Fill in these 2 blanks and see if it matches your interpretation of this scripture. Thanks.

Son of Man standing at the right hand of God

Just like the verse say..

Doe you think it says something different?

Peter1000 · May 30, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Son of Man standing at the right hand of God

Just like the verse say..

Doe you think it says something different?

No, but do you know who the "Son of Man" is?

mmksparbud · May 30, 2020

Peter1000 said:
No, but do you know who the "Son of Man" is?

Jesus, the Creator of EVERYTHING, was one with the Father and Holy Spirit. All were present at creation as One. They have different functions---but one God. Jesus became human, something that not one of the other 2 had ever been. He became different from, but still fully God and fully human. He will forever retain His humanity, however, He is still and forever will be God. We will not fully understand until we are with them. Jesus says God is spirit. No one can turn around and say God is bone and flesh. It completely contradicts what Jesus said.

Peter1000 · May 30, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Jesus, the Creator of EVERYTHING, was one with the Father and Holy Spirit. All were present at creation as One. They have different functions---but one God. Jesus became human, something that not one of the other 2 had ever been. He became different from, but still fully God and fully human. He will forever retain His humanity, however, He is still and forever will be God. We will not fully understand until we are with them. Jesus says God is spirit. No one can turn around and say God is bone and flesh. It completely contradicts what Jesus said.

So are you willing to just say that Jesus is the "Son of Man"?

mmksparbud · May 30, 2020

Peter1000 said:
So are you willing to just say that Jesus was the "Son of Man"?

Mat_9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
at_11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Mat_12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat_13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat_13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat_16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

There are 85 verses saying this----who did you think it was?

Jamesone5 · May 30, 2020

Peter1000 said:
No, but do you know who the "Son of Man" is?

God in the flesh.

Jamesone5 · May 30, 2020

Peter1000 said:
You didn't talk about the baptism scene.

You had a non-response to Acts

And you said I'm not even going to get into Revelations

So there you go, I give you 3 perfect examples of the 1 true God being 3 separate and distinct Gods from the bible and your response was woefully short.

The baptism (Matthew 3:19) God the Son on the earth, at the exact same time God the Father was speaking from Heaven, at the exact same time the Holy Spirit was coming down from God the Father and to dwell in God the Son.

The murder of Stephen (Acts 7:55-56) Up in the air or heavens, God the Son Jesus standing on the right side of God the Father, who showed Stephen His glory. And the Holy Spirit at the exact same time that Jesus was standing on the right hand of God, was in Stephen on the earth.

The throne of God (Revelations 5) The one sitting on the throne (God the FAther) had a book from his right hand, to Jesus (the Lamb), who is standing in front of God the Father and takes the book from God's right hand. The Holy Spirit it not mentioned in this scripture. 2 Gods, 1 sitting on a throne, 1 standing in front of the throne.

3 perfect examples of Mormonism 101.

There is no Matthew 3:19, so you are confused about the question from the start.

I do not have the time to babysit you. If you have a true question based on real scriptures, then ask away.

And I did respond in post 407----it must have flew by you.

Jamesone5 · May 30, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Read my reply to your non-response to Acts 7:55-56 (for you to use the word "butchering" is interesting)

Do you think Jesus hasn't got a plan for what he is going to accomplish when he comes the second time?

The so-called "plan" of God is already listed out in Revelations and so many prophesies in the OT and NT.

The Mormon insertion of a "plan" reminds me of a war strategy where IF God does not plan it out right, He is not going to win the battle with satan.

And do pay attention to post 407 as there was hardly a "non response"

LDS Brigham Young and His Blood Atonement

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