Futurist Only Is the Daniel 7 Little Horn Apollyon?

tranquil · May 28, 2020

This is a pretty simple post, but I was shocked to see what I'm about to post here (and I think you will be too). Who is Apollyon? What are the locusts in the 5th Trumpet? What is the meaning of the 4 'angels' of the 6th Trumpet? I don't think anyone has shown you this before - and it's just so obvious once you see it!

The 'notable horn' of the goat in Daniel 8:5 is the little horn of Daniel 7. The little horn of Daniel 7 arrives at the 1st Trumpet and dies 5 months later at the 6th Trumpet. The little horn of Daniel 8 replaces the Daniel 7 little horn at the 6th Trumpet. (Both little horns of Dan 7 & 8 are Apollyon/ Abaddon) (just to clarify: these are 2 different people - the little horn of Daniel 7 & the little horn of Daniel 8).

The Day of the Lord's wrath arrives at the 6th Seal / 1st Trumpet. Revelation 6:12-17

The man of sin is revealed at the Day of the Lord. 2 Thessalonians 2:3

The 6th Trumpet involves the sanctuary. See Revelation 9:13-17 and compare with Psalm 68:17

The chariots of God are twice ten thousand, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them; Sinai is now in the sanctuary.

Now we get to the fun part: Daniel 7's little horn
The Daniel 7 four beasts arise at the start of the 4 winds which begin right after the 6th Seal in Revelation 7:1.

Daniel 7

2 Daniel declared, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9“As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

11“I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

At the end of the 5th Trumpet/ start of the 6th Trumpet, the Daniel 7 little horn dies.

Just to recap here: the little horn of Daniel 7 begins at the 1st Trumpet. Then he dies 5 months later at the 6th Trumpet, when the 'court is seated and the ten thousands are serving the Lord in the Sanctuary'.

Now comes the other fun part: let's go to Daniel 8, the whole vision of which is expressly said to be referring to the end times (Daniel 8:17).

2 I saw the vision, and as I watched, I was in the fortress city of Susa, in the province of Elam. I saw in the vision that I was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 I looked up, and there was a ram standing beside the canal. He had two horns. The two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, and the longer one came up last. 4 I saw the ram charging to the west, the north, and the south. No animal could stand against him, and there was no rescue from his power. He did whatever he wanted and became great.

5 As I was observing, a male goat appeared, coming from the west across the surface of the entire earth without touching the ground. The goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. 6 He came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and rushed at him with savage fury.

7 I saw him approaching the ram, and infuriated with him, he struck the ram, shattering his two horns, and the ram was not strong enough to stand against him. The goat threw him to the ground and trampled him, and there was no one to rescue the ram from his power. 8 Then the male goat became very great, but when he became powerful, the large horn was shattered.

[the little horn of Daniel 7 defeats Russia & Iran and then dies and his kingdom is split into 4]

Four conspicuous horns came up in its place, pointing toward the four winds of heaven.

[compare with Revelation 9:14]

9 From one of them a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the beautiful land. 10 It grew as high as the heavenly host, made some of the stars and some of the host fall to the earth, and trampled them. 11 It made itself great, even up to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. 12 Because of rebellion, a host, together with the daily sacrifice, will be given over. The horn will throw truth to the ground and will be successful in whatever it does.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the speaker, “How long will the events of this vision last — the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled? ”

14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be restored.”

The 4 angels at the 6th Trumpet (Revelation 9:14) (the 'angels' of Ezekiel 10:15 are the same 'beasts' in Ezekiel 1:10 - which we know from Daniel 7 that beasts are kings & kingdoms) are the 4 kingdoms/ horns that spring up from the kingdom of the little horn in Daniel 7.

ewq1938 · May 28, 2020

tranquil said:
The Day of the Lord's wrath arrives at the 6th Seal / 1st Trumpet. Revelation 6:12-17

The time of God's wrath is described in the 6th seal from the perspective of the unsaved. That would be the 7th trumpet timeframe, not the first trumpet. The first trumpet is a timeframe before the time of God's wrath.

tranquil · May 28, 2020

ewq1938 said:
The time of God's wrath is described in the 6th seal from the perspective of the unsaved. That would be the 7th trumpet timeframe, not the first trumpet. The first trumpet is a timeframe before the time of God's wrath.

The wrath that starts at the 1st Trumpet is God's wrath upon people who join with the Daniel 7 little horn during the 5 months from the start of the 1st Trumpet to the start of the 6th Trumpet. (that's why there is the separation going on in the 7th Seal.)

The Daniel 8 little horn who arrives at the 6th Trumpet doesn't break the covenant until the end of the 2 witnesses 1260 days/ end of the 6th Trumpet/ 2nd woe.

the people of the prince to come (both little horns people): destroys the city (1st Trumpet), destroys the sanctuary (6th Trumpet), then the Daniel 8 little horn makes the covenant, then 1260 days later breaks it. That starts the 7 bowls of wrath.

2 different evil entities, 2 different times of testing/ tempting that causes the 7 punishments for disobedience. (Leviticus 26:18)

Douggg · May 28, 2020

No, to answer the topic question.

I read through your first post, Tranquil, and you have come to some wrong conclusions.

The 4 angels bound in the River Euphrates in Revelation 9:14 are not connected to Ezekiel 1:10 those four "living creatures" of what some call the chariot of God.

The 4 angels bound in the River Euphrates seem to be evil in nature, which is why they are bound there. But it appears that at the sixth trumpet they are set loose to take part in the slaying of a third of mankind at the time. Whether the angels are figurative (to represent certain nations) or literal to impact the leaders of those nations is questionable -

But the size of the armies involved is 200,000, 000. And a third of mankind will die at that time, near the end of the 7 years.

_____________________________________________________________

The little horn in Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 is the same person. And in both chapters, he comes to his end when Jesus returns, bringing the kingdom of God to earth as the ruling kingdom over the nations, having no end.

Reading forward in bible from Daniel 7, more and more information about the person has been released over time.

1. Little horn in Daniel 7
2. Little horn in Daniel 8
3. The prince who shall come in Daniel 9
3. The another in John John 5:43
4. The Antichrist in 1John2:18
5. The revealed man of sin, in 2Thessalonians2:3-4
6. The beast in Revelation 13.

Broken Fence · May 28, 2020

I thought the little horn was the unclean woman in revelations. She destroyed 3 kingdoms when she came up.

tranquil · May 28, 2020

Cbowles said:
I thought the little horn was the unclean woman in revelations. She destroyed 3 kingdoms when she came up.

I’m not sure what you mean? What 3 does she destroy?

Broken Fence · May 28, 2020

tranquil said:
I’m not sure what you mean? What 3 does she destroy?

3 of the ten horns from my understanding.

ewq1938 · May 29, 2020

Cbowles said:
3 of the ten horns from my understanding.

What scriptures state the woman does this?

Davy · May 29, 2020

tranquil said:
The 'notable horn' of the goat in Daniel 8:5 is the little horn of Daniel 7.

You need to throw away those SDA books. They are confusing you.

The latter part of the Dan.8 chapter reveals who those symbols represent:

1. The ram with two horns = kings of Media and Persia, past history.
2. The rough goat = king of Grecia (Alexander the Great). The great horn between his eyes is the 1st king. The great horn being broken, 4 kingdoms stood up out of it. This was all history.
3. The "little horn" = the king of fierce countenance that stands up in the latter days. This represents the final Antichrist coming in our near future. This is the one given comparison in Rev.13 that blasphemes God and is given power over the saints for 42 months.

The little horn of Daniel 7 arrives at the 1st Trumpet and dies 5 months later at the 6th Trumpet. The little horn of Daniel 8 replaces the Daniel 7 little horn at the 6th Trumpet. (Both little horns of Dan 7 & 8 are Apollyon/ Abaddon).

Not quite. The "little horn" represents the Antichrist at the end (i.e., tribulation). He comes on the 6th Seal (first part), 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe. The signs in Revelation are about only 7 main Signs, the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. So the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials run in parallel, and some of it overlaps.

The "day of the Lord" is the LAST DAY of this world, and occurs with Jesus' 2nd coming on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe (Rev.11).

The "vile person" of Dan.11 also represents the final Antichrist at the end of this world.

The titles Apollyon and Abaddon mean 'the Destroyer'. Those are titles for the angel over the bottomless pit (per Rev.9). Satan is an angel, and he is that king over the bottomless pit. That's his home away from home. That is where he will eventually be locked in chains for a thousand years.

tranquil · May 29, 2020

Cbowles said:
I thought the little horn was the unclean woman in revelations. She destroyed 3 kingdoms when she came up.

The unclean woman is Mystery Babylon. She rides a 7 headed beast (wherein 'she', the apostate church led by a man would be the '8th head').

It could be the case that the Daniel 7 little horn represents the 8th head, but I'm not inclined to think so.

The 3 kingdoms probably refers to the 3 prior beasts, meaning the 4th Beast's 11th horn (of Daniel 7) has taken over the lion, bear, & leopard.

Broken Fence · May 29, 2020

tranquil said:
The unclean woman is Mystery Babylon. She rides a 7 headed beast (wherein 'she', the apostate church led by a man would be the '8th head').

It could be the case that the Daniel 7 little horn represents the 8th head, but I'm not inclined to think so.

The 3 kingdoms probably refers to the 3 prior beasts, meaning the 4th Beast's 11th horn (of Daniel 7) has taken over the lion, bear, & leopard.

Could be from my understanding the little horn is the Vatican. The fatal headwound was when Napoleon took pope captive, Pope died in captivity and the office was no more. Miraclesy the head wound is healing we are headed back into the dark ages with computer power.

tranquil · May 29, 2020

Davy said:
You need to throw away those SDA books. They are confusing you.

The latter part of the Dan.8 chapter reveals who those symbols represent:

1. The ram with two horns = kings of Media and Persia, past history.
2. The rough goat = king of Grecia (Alexander the Great). The great horn between his eyes is the 1st king. The great horn being broken, 4 kingdoms stood up out of it. This was all history.
3. The "little horn" = the king of fierce countenance that stands up in the latter days. This represents the final Antichrist coming in our near future. This is the one given comparison in Rev.13 that blasphemes God and is given power over the saints for 42 months.

Not quite. The "little horn" represents the Antichrist at the end (i.e., tribulation). He comes on the 6th Seal (first part), 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe. The signs in Revelation are about only 7 main Signs, the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. So the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials run in parallel, and some of it overlaps.

The "day of the Lord" is the LAST DAY of this world, and occurs with Jesus' 2nd coming on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe (Rev.11).

The "vile person" of Dan.11 also represents the final Antichrist at the end of this world.

The titles Apollyon and Abaddon mean 'the Destroyer'. Those are titles for the angel over the bottomless pit (per Rev.9). Satan is an angel, and he is that king over the bottomless pit. That's his home away from home. That is where he will eventually be locked in chains for a thousand years.

I'm not SDA, sorry.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are not parallel, they are sequential. Parallel in thematic material, but not parallel in time.

'Day' has multiple meanings. It is your own personal insistence that makes it mean 'last day' literally.

Matthew 24:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

That is the 'destroyer', the 'man of sin'. That is Apollyon.

Here is Daniel 7's little horn.

25He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, times, and half a time.

Here is Daniel 8's little horn

23And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. 24His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints.

Notice that there is always a pair being spoken of in reference to the destroyer:

Death & Hades
Apollyon & Abaddon
Man of sin & Son of perdition
Little horn of Daniel 7 & Little horn of Daniel 8

Your insistence on a historical interpretation of Daniel 8 is clouding the correct interpretation of Revelation. Even if there was a historical precedent, that doesn't preclude there being a future manifestation of that same vision. The whole vision is for the end, not just a part of it.

tranquil · May 29, 2020

Douggg said:
No, to answer the topic question.

I read through your first post, Tranquil, and you have come to some wrong conclusions.

The 4 angels bound in the River Euphrates in Revelation 9:14 are not connected to Ezekiel 1:10 those four "living creatures" of what some call the chariot of God.

The 4 angels bound in the River Euphrates seem to be evil in nature, which is why they are bound there. But it appears that at the sixth trumpet they are set loose to take part in the slaying of a third of mankind at the time. Whether the angels are figurative (to represent certain nations) or literal to impact the leaders of those nations is questionable -

But the size of the armies involved is 200,000, 000. And a third of mankind will die at that time, near the end of the 7 years.

_____________________________________________________________

The little horn in Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 is the same person. And in both chapters, he comes to his end when Jesus returns, bringing the kingdom of God to earth as the ruling kingdom over the nations, having no end.

Reading forward in bible from Daniel 7, more and more information about the person has been released over time.

1. Little horn in Daniel 7
2. Little horn in Daniel 8
3. The prince who shall come in Daniel 9
3. The another in John John 5:43
4. The Antichrist in 1John2:18
5. The revealed man of sin, in 2Thessalonians2:3-4
6. The beast in Revelation 13.

Here is the 6th Trumpet

13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions’ heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound.

20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Here is Psalm 68:17

The chariots of God are twice ten thousand, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them; Sinai is now in the sanctuary.

It is just a translational quirk: 2 x 10,000 x 10,000 = 200 million. Same exact number.

Same exact number reference as in Deuteronomy 33:17

17A firstborn bull—he has majesty,
and his horns are the horns of a wild ox;
with them he shall gore the peoples,
all of them, to the ends of the earth;
they are the ten thousands of Ephraim,
and they are the thousands of Manasseh.”

Ezekiel 10:15 calls the creatures at the Chebar River 'angels'. The Chebar River is a tributary of the Euphrates River. Here is proof: Khabur (Euphrates) - Wikipedia Literally the same place.

Here are the 'creatures/ angels' of the Chebar/ Euphrates River from Ezekiel 1

3the word of the Lord came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the Chebar canal, and the hand of the Lord was upon him there.

4 As I looked, behold, a stormy wind came out of the north, and a great cloud, with brightness around it, and fire flashing forth continually, and in the midst of the fire, as it were gleaming metal. 5 And from the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had a human likeness,

6 but each had four faces, and each of them had four wings.

[Note: in Hebrew, the word 'each' can be translated as 'one'. Thus:

One had 4 faces and one of them had 4 wings. This is the same as the 4 headed Leopard with 4 wings in Daniel 7.]

7 Their legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the sole of a calf’s foot. And they sparkled like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. And the four had their faces and their wings thus: 9 their wings touched one another. Each one of them went straight forward, without turning as they went.

10 As for the likeness of their faces, each had a human face. The four had the face of a lion on the right side, the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and the four had the face of an eagle.

[Because Hebrew reads right to left, the 1st Beast/ creature/ angel is the Lion, just like the Lion is 1st in the Daniel 7 list. The last Beast is the 'Ox'/ Bull on the Left side - meaning the last in the list, the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 that 'treads the whole world down'.

So far, we have a 4 headed Leopard, a Lion that is 1st, a Bull that is last, and all have the quality of an eagle. What is the quality most associated with the eagle? Matthew 24:28 & Revelation 19:18 says that eagles are filled with the flesh of many people. And what is the quality of the bear in Daniel 7:5? It devours much flesh. The 'bear' is just a symbol of 'devouring much flesh', in the same manner that eagles 'eat the flesh' of many people.

11 Such were their faces. And their wings were spread out above. Each creature had two wings, each of which touched the wing of another, while two covered their bodies.

Again here is Deuteronomy 33:17

17A firstborn bull—he has majesty,
and his horns are the horns of a wild ox;
with them he shall gore the peoples,
all of them, to the ends of the earth;
they are the ten thousands of Ephraim,
and they are the thousands of Manasseh.”
The 'horns' is a reference to the 'horns' of the 4th Beast of Daniel 7:7. Ephraim is the Bull/ox; is the last of the 4 Ezekiel 'angel/ creatures'; is the Daniel 7 4th Beast. The 10 horns is a reference to the apostate 10 tribes of Israel that rebelled against 12 tribe Israel.

tranquil · May 29, 2020

Douggg said:
_____________________________________________________________

The little horn in Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 is the same person. And in both chapters, he comes to his end when Jesus returns, bringing the kingdom of God to earth as the ruling kingdom over the nations, having no end.

Reading forward in bible from Daniel 7, more and more information about the person has been released over time.

1. Little horn in Daniel 7
2. Little horn in Daniel 8
3. The prince who shall come in Daniel 9
3. The another in John John 5:43
4. The Antichrist in 1John2:18
5. The revealed man of sin, in 2Thessalonians2:3-4
6. The beast in Revelation 13.

Bible prophecy is written in such a manner by which one could believe something false if you really wanted to. It can't be written in such a manner by which it would be self-defeating as it exactly spells something out, because it would just be copied so as to deceive people anyway. It is deliberatly ambiguous. If you want to think that the little horn of Daniel 7 & 8 are the same person, that is your prerogative. But there really isn't any reason to think that they are the same.

Daniel 7

21As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

The saints possess the kingdom at the 6th Trumpet.

Daniel 8

23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. 24 His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. 25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken—but by no human hand.

The 'saints' he is attacking are the saints of the kingdom that arrived at the 6th Trumpet. This little horn is attacking the 2 witnesses.

Douggg · May 29, 2020

tranquil said:
Here is Psalm 68:17
The chariots of God are twice ten thousand, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them; Sinai is now in the sanctuary.
It is just a translational quirk: 2 x 10,000 x 10,000 = 200 million. Same exact number.

It is not 200 million.

It is twenty thousand, pause - thousands upon thousands.

From the KJV.

17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

tranquil · May 30, 2020

Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Again, just to clarify: there is the little horn of Daniel 7 and a different individual little horn of Daniel 8.

The Daniel 7 little horn is the 'notable horn' of Daniel 8:5, after which this notable horn dies, his kingdom splits into 4 kingdoms, out of which comes the Daniel 8 little horn.

The Daniel 7 little horn looks like the 'savior' because the Daniel 8 '2 horned' coalition of Russia/ Iran forms a decoy False Prophet. This decoy False Prophet led by Russia will have attacked '3 ribs' (the bear has 3 ribs in Daniel 7:5) which correlate to Daniel 8:4's 2 horned ram attacking 'the west, north, & south' (the '3 ribs' forming a decoy 3 horns that are taken over). This 'notable horn' defeats Russia/ Iran then dies.

This Daniel 7 little horn character in modern prophecy circles is 'the Great Monarch' also known as 'the Last Roman Emperor'. He defeats Russia and when he dies, his kingdom is split up.

Matthew 24

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the Daniel 7 little horn dies, then the court is seated & the elect are gathered.

That is what is happening at the 6th Trumpet. The '200 million man army' of Revelation 9:16 is referring to this 'gathering after the tribulation', see Psalm 68:17 & Deuteronomy 33:17.

Now here is the little horn of Daniel 7

8I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9“As I looked,

thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

11“I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

[the little horn of Daniel 7 dies at the 6th Trumpet, there is the 'great gathering' 'immediately after the 'great tribulation' of the Daniel 7 little horn, then the Daniel 8 little horn establishes the new temple which would be violated after 1260 days.]

13“I saw in the night visions,

and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

Do you see that the 'ancient of days' (Jesus) and the 'kingdom is given to the saints' could be used by the little horn of Daniel 8? If people don't understand that these are 2 separate people, then after the Daniel 7 little horn is killed, people might think that the little horn of Daniel 8 is this 'ancient of days' who has 'dominion' (in Jerusalem, triggering the 2 witnesses).

Cordell · Jun 4, 2020

The little horn power is the Roman Catholic Church, which came up from the 4th Beast (Rome) Daniel 7 and plucked up 3 of the 10 horns from the root, the feet of iron and miry clay which comes of the leg of iron (Rome), The woman that rides the beast which has ten heads but only 7 crowns, women in Prophecy represents a church and beast a kingdom, thus the woman that rides the beast symbolizes a kingdom that is a church-state system. The Roman Catholic Church is a church and also a kingdom.

Who is the Antichrist? | Bible Study Guides | Amazing Facts

Davy · Jun 8, 2020

tranquil said:
I'm not SDA, sorry.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are not parallel, they are sequential. Parallel in thematic material, but not parallel in time.

Oh but yes they are in parallel. Christ's Olivet discourse proves it, because that is where He first gave the 7 Signs of the end leading up to His return, which is what the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are about. There are only 7 main Signs that He gave. And His servants were to understand those Signs given in His Olivet discourse first. This is why the 7th trumpet, 7th vial, and 6th seal parallel each other.

'Day' has multiple meanings. It is your own personal insistence that makes it mean 'last day' literally.

When the "last day" is coupled with the subject of the resurrection (John 6), it's impossible to apply that to any other time than the actual final day of this present world, which is when the resurrection is to occur.

Matthew 24:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

That is the 'destroyer', the 'man of sin'. That is Apollyon.

Weird! You just assigned Satan as GOD The Father.

That above verse is Jesus proclaiming to His servants to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but not our soul, but fear The Father Who can destroy both spirit body and soul in the future lake of fire.

Here is Daniel 7's little horn.
....

I guess you just weren't payin' attention. I mentioned the connection with the "little horn" of the Book of Daniel with the Antichrist in Rev.13 who blasphemes God, a repeat of the latter Daniel 8 verses.

Notice that there is always a pair being spoken of in reference to the destroyer:

Death & Hades

Apollyon & Abaddon

Man of sin & Son of perdition

Little horn of D

Daniel 7 & Little horn of Daniel 8

That's numerology. You can't get a reliable understanding from God's Word playing that kind game. That's a favorite pastime of pagan religion. Hades is not Death. And Apollyon and Abaddon are simply names in 2 different languages for the same person. And the little horn of Daniel 7 & 8 is the same Antichrist at the end of this world, or didn't you notice in Daniel 7:9-11 about the thrones being cast down showing the judgement of the Antichrist, meaning Christ returns in the time of that "little horn".

Your insistence on a historical interpretation of Daniel 8 is clouding the correct interpretation of Revelation. Even if there was a historical precedent, that doesn't preclude there being a future manifestation of that same vision. The whole vision is for the end, not just a part of it.

Well, I guess you have an attention disorder then, because starting about Dan.8:15 the historical fulfillment of what I showed was explained there to Daniel by the Archangel Gabriel. Might want to read the actual Scripture again.

DavidPT · Jun 8, 2020

Davy said:
So the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials run in parallel, and some of it overlaps.

I'm not seeing the logic in this. Especially in regards to the the trumpets and vials running in parallel. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you somewhere?

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Is this before or after the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13 is underway? The reason why that's important, if the 1st vial parallels the first trumpet, that means the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13 obviously has to already be underway, otherwise we encounter a contradiction with your interpretation.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This clearly can't precede the events recorded in Revelation 13. There can't even be a mark of the beast, and an image to worship, until a beast rises out of the sea first, and another out of the earth.

Davy · Jun 8, 2020

DavidPT said:
I'm not seeing the logic in this. Especially in regards to the the trumpets and vials running in parallel. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you somewhere?

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Is this before or after the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13 is underway? The reason why that's important, if the 1st vial parallels the first trumpet, that means the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13 obviously has to already be underway, otherwise we encounter a contradiction with your interpretation.

The order of the Seals follows Christ's Olivet discourse. The first Sign He gave was to not allow any man to deceive us. That parallels the false rider on the white horse in Rev.6, which represents the coming false-Christ at the end, but he doesn't actually appear until a later Seal, which also follows the pattern in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24:23-26 which is tribulation time. The key to it all is close parallel study of the 7 Signs in Christ's Olivet discourse with the Seals. Once that is understood, then it all begins to fall into place.

The 42 month reign in Rev.13 parallels the time in Rev.11 when the Gentiles tread the holy city for 42 months. What timing are we shown with that? It's on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period that started in Rev.9:12 (Rev.10 is parenthetical). The last 3 trumpets each have a Woe attached to them revealing those are the times our Lord especially wants us to be aware of and watching. It covers the time just prior to the "great tribulation" and then into it, all the way up to Jesus' 2nd coming on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe.

So the time of the last 3 trumpets cover the very end. The previous trumpets are in prep for the great tribulation.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This clearly can't precede the events recorded in Revelation 13. There can't even be a mark of the beast, and an image to worship, until a beast rises out of the sea first, and another out of the earth.

Yet in Rev.16 with the 6th Vial we have this...

Rev 16:12-14
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
KJV

... which parallels this...

Rev 9:12-15
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, 'Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.'

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
KJV

That represents the start of the time of "great tribulation" at the very end, i.e., Paul's time of "Peace and safety" the deceived will be saying.

So the actual time of the 'stinging' of Rev.9 happens with that 6th trumpet.

Futurist Only Is the Daniel 7 Little Horn Apollyon?

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