The KJVO Myth - Phony As A Ford Corvette !

Carl Emerson · May 29, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
God doesn't do things by halves. World + Jesus = All saved.

No Hell?? Mmmm... - someone should have told Jesus that - I guess that was before Revelation was written.... so He wouldn't have known the change of plan I guess.

Silly Uncle Wayne · May 29, 2020

Radagast said:
"Jacob," as the name of New Testament figures, had already changed to "James" over time, transforming slowly from "Jacobus" to "Jacomus" to "Jomus" to "James." Elsewhere in Europe it changed to "Diego."

The 1599 Geneva Bible already printed "James" instead of "Jacob" for all the New Testament Jameses. So nothing to do with King James.

Thanks

Shrewd Manager · May 29, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
No Hell?? Mmmm... - someone should have told Jesus that - I guess that was before Revelation was written.... so He wouldn't have known the change of plan I guess.

'Hell'? There's Hades (Hellenic land o' shades), Sheol (same same but different in Yiddish), Gehenna (from oral tradition, suggestive of the Ba'al brand baby cooker eschewed by God in the OT), and the lake of fire (plus Tartaroo but we don't worry about cross-dressing marsupials here). So which one, or all?

KJV casts a wide net...but again gets tangled in its own feet when it gets to Rev 20:14, and finds hell (hades) getting turfed into the LoF. So that's the last we hear of hell, right? And good riddance. To wit:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14)

So that's a plus. NO MORE HELL. And with the passages re the nations I just quoted, the attuned reader will notice that (a) the unbelieving nations emerge from the LoF and (b) something miraculous has happened to them...they ALL got SAVED!

So the LoF is God's hot tub of life. 'It burns, it burns!' Like Deep Heat, perhaps, could it be the balm of Gilead?

Saint Steven · May 29, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
No Hell?? Mmmm... - someone should have told Jesus that - I guess that was before Revelation was written.... so He wouldn't have known the change of plan I guess.

This is part of the bias to which I refer. The English translation is a Damnationist biased text. Check this out. See quote below.
(Damnationism is called "endless punishment of the wicked" in the quote below, "conditional immortality" is Annihilationism) Four of the six theological schools were Universalist. But our Bible came from Rome. (Damnationist)

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Saint Steven · May 29, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
No Hell?? Mmmm... - someone should have told Jesus that - I guess that was before Revelation was written.... so He wouldn't have known the change of plan I guess.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Der Alte · May 29, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
'Hell'? There's Hades (Hellenic land o' shades), Sheol (same same but different in Yiddish), Gehenna (from oral tradition, suggestive of the Ba'al brand baby cooker eschewed by God in the OT), and the lake of fire (plus Tartaroo but we don't worry about cross-dressing marsupials here). So which one, or all?
KJV casts a wide net...but again gets tangled in its own feet when it gets to Rev 20:14, and finds hell (hades) getting turfed into the LoF. So that's the last we hear of hell, right? And good riddance. To wit:
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14)
So that's a plus. NO MORE HELL. And with the passages re the nations I just quoted, the attuned reader will notice that (a) the unbelieving nations emerge from the LoF and (b) something miraculous has happened to them...they ALL got SAVED!
So the LoF is God's hot tub of life. 'It burns, it burns!' Like Deep Heat, perhaps, could it be the balm of Gilead?

This is the distorted picture that comes out of UR-land which the UR-ites mimic without realizing how absurd it is.
Let us read Rev 20:14 in-context.
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

.

Der Alte · May 29, 2020

Saint Steven said:
This is part of the bias to which I refer. The English translation is a Damnationist biased text. Check this out. See quote below.
(Damnationism is called "endless punishment of the wicked" in the quote below, "conditional immortality" is Annihilationism) Four of the six theological schools were Universalist. But our Bible came from Rome. (Damnationist)
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Other than the Schaff "quote" above there is no. zero, none evidence that any theological schools in the first five or six centuries of Christianity were Universalist. I have asked repeatedly for this evidence and not nobody, not nohow can provide such evidence.

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

Der Alte said:
This is the distorted picture that comes out of UR-land which the UR-ites mimic without realizing how absurd it is.
Let us read Rev 20:14 in-context.
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
.

More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

Aeon - Wikipedia

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

Der Alte said:
Other than the Schaff "quote" above there is no. zero, none evidence that any theological schools in the first five or six centuries of Christianity were Universalist. I have asked repeatedly for this evidence and not nobody, not nohow can provide such evidence.

(1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

"It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.

(2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

"...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

(Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

(3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).

(4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

Jerome says:

"I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

"This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

"The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

"Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

" "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

******************************************************

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages.
It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

Shrewd Manager · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
(4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

The 'rational creatures' rider should worry infernalists.

Friends, reason with us:
God wants all saved. He will do His pleasure. Therefore...

Radagast · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
(3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).

Look at all those missing words!

I'm not sure what you can infer from the actual passage:

There are many men, who form good hopes not by abstaining from their sins, but by thinking that hell is not so terrible as it is said to be, but milder than what is threatened, and temporary, not eternal; and about this they philosophize much. But I could show from many reasons, and conclude from the very expressions concerning hell, that it is not only not milder, but much more terrible than is threatened.

Der Alte · May 29, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
The 'rational creatures' rider should worry infernalists.
Friends, reason with us:
God wants all saved. He will do His pleasure. Therefore...

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

lsume · May 29, 2020

Swan7 said:
Well I’m confused. I thought this thread was about being against KJVO, but I’m reading it as against the very version itself and not the mindset.

God is not the author of confusion.

1Cor.14 KJV

[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

Der Alte said:
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Der Alter said:
<Clem>Can you show me where that quote or context says after he destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that he would also NEVER have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.
Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).
Conclusion: All will be saved<end>
What part of God, Himself, saying "I [God]will not pity, [I God will not ]spare, [I God will] destroy them? Do you think God did not mean "I will not have pity" when He said it? Do you think "I will not have mercy" means "sometime in the future I will have mercy?"
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, said the LORD: [יהוה/YHWH]I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
The burden of proof is on you, and/or all other UR-ites, to prove from scripture that God decided to change His mind and sometime in the future He would have pity and mercy and would undestroy the unfaithful and disobedient Israelites in Jer 13. Your 2 proof texts from Jn and 1 Jn do not, cannot supersede the words of God Himself. There is no NT verse or verses which can supersede the plain meaning of the scriptures I quoted.

You're confused if you think Jer.13:14 denies biblical universalism. (Is that what you think?) It doesn't & you've provided - no evidence whatsoever - that is the case. Where is your evidence, logic or argument that Jer.13:14 is a "proof text" against Scriptural Universalism? You've given none. Anyone should be able to see that Jer.13:14 - fails miserably - as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see that? Evidently not, since you keep posting the same verse over & over again.

When a judge sentences criminals to capital punishment & does "not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them", does that mean they have been sentenced to an endless torture chamber? No. Does it mean they cannot be saved postmortem? No. Your verse - fails - as a "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see this?

When God "destroyed" the world with a flood, children & babies included, He did not "spare" the world, or have "mercy" (the same words Jer.13:14 uses) but did "destroy" (same English word as Jer.13:14) the people of the world. Does that prove these people (babies included) could not be saved postmortem? No. And IMO the same applies to Jer.13:14. Now let's see you try to refute that. Also note that Jer.13:14 refers to "fathers and sons". How young might some of those "sons" be? Do you suppose babies will be frying in hell for all eternity, like Augustine (the so-called champion of eternal punishment) believed?

To give another example, God make the king in Daniel 4 eat grass like an animal for 7 years. God did not "spare" him from this ordeal, nor have "mercy" on him to pardon him from this punishment, but instead subjected him to this insanity (a destruction of his soul) for 7 years. Yet afterwards the king was restored to sanity, humbled & worshipped God.

Consider also the following passages from the Bible & 100's more at the urls below:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

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ClementofA · May 29, 2020

Der Alte said:
Please see my response in the other thread re: Clement of Alexandria. Do you see any redemptive purpose in the following passages?
Genesis 7:21-22
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
Jeremiah 13:11
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
...
Jeremiah 13:14
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Der Alter said: "Do you see any redemptive purpose in the following passages?"

In light of the following, why don't you?

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given
to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them".

BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens".

Albion · May 29, 2020

Swan7 said:
Well I’m confused. I thought this thread was about being against KJVO, but I’m reading it as against the very version itself and not the mindset.

Good point. My question would be "Why should we be so offended at the fact that some people are KJVO?"

Yes, the POV of KJVO people is strange, and some advocates are irritating, but if they read the most famous Bible version in history and like it, why should I be worried?

It's not as though there is a different choice of Bible versions which has the added benefit of being free from all errors or confusing wording.

Der Alte · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
***

. . .

ClementofA said:
Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever". . . .

This sounds good in UR country but one should study a little about Hebrew.
Biblical Hebrew lacked superlatives so for emphasis words were repeated this is called polyptoton.
One of the earliest examples is in Genesis 2:17 when God told Adam "in the day you eat of the fruit you shall surely die. Hebrew is "muth t'muth." "dying you shall die."
Here from E.W. Bullinger's "Figures of Speech used in the Bible." pg. 284

284 FIGURES OF SPEECH.
in A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God” etc.
1 Kings V111. 27.- The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee”: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. L etc. Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity.
Song Sol. i. I.—” The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e.. the most mighty king.
Dan. ii. 47.—” God of gods.: i.e.. the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25..—” The Prince or princes”: i.e., the most powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15. So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’. The figure is here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4.—” A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 1ii. . “.A Hebrew or the Hebrews," i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
I Tim. vi. 15.—.”The King or kings, and Lord of lords." Compare Rev. xvi. 14 and iz. 16.
Rev. i. 6.—” The ages of the ages.. i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever.

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

Der Alte said:
. . .

This sounds good in UR country but one should study a little about Hebrew.
Biblical Hebrew lacked superlatives so for emphasis words were repeated this is called polyptoton.
One of the earliest examples is in Genesis 2:17 when God told Adam "in the day you eat of the fruit you shall surely die. Hebrew is "muth t'muth." "dying you shall die."
Here from E.W. Bullinger's "Figures of Speech used in the Bible." pg. 284

284 FIGURES OF SPEECH.
in A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God” etc.
1 Kings V111. 27.- The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee”: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. L etc. Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity.
Song Sol. i. I.—” The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e.. the most mighty king.
Dan. ii. 47.—” God of gods.: i.e.. the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25..—” The Prince or princes”: i.e., the most powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15. So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’. The figure is here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4.—” A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 1ii. . “.A Hebrew or the Hebrews," i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
I Tim. vi. 15.—.”The King or kings, and Lord of lords." Compare Rev. xvi. 14 and iz. 16.
Rev. i. 6.—” The ages of the ages.. i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever.

What has Hebrew to do with my post about Rev.20:10 which is from the Greek NT?

BTW your pope of all popes EOB Bible translates Rev.20:10 using the English word "ages" not "for ever and ever" self contradictory non literal nonsense that changes God's Words & deceives readers.

So who is wrong? Bullinger or your pope of all Bible versions?

*****************************************

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jer.8:8)

LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

***************************************

As to Bullinger's comments, i've addressed them before as follows:

Bullinger is certainly entitled to his wrong opinion. However, since Scripture always trumps opinions & bulloni, in this case it also trumps the bulloni of Bullinger.

As for Bullinger's biased opinion, he gives no evidence for his viewpoint of "the ages of the ages"meaning "to the remotest age". Why did he not instead determine it means to the remotest "ages" (plural) since the word is in the plural? Why not "to the most excellent age" or ages, as he states re the "song of songs"? Or "to the greatest ages" as he states regarding "vanity of vanities"? Why blindly accept Bullinger's bald unsupported opinion? Is he a pope? Did he know Greek better than the early church universalists, such as the church father Origen, who spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages? If these periods of finite time have an end, then they are not, as Bullinger claims, for ever and ever.

Furthermore, he gives no reason for how he magicly leaps from "to the remotest age" to "for ever and ever". If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever. If torment is "into" (EIS) "the remotest age", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of that age, even if the age is endless. If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time. From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.

5 Scriptural evidences that ages of ages end:

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

continued at:

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

rockytopva · May 29, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
Honestly I just like to confuse KJVO folks by asking which KJV.

-CryptoLutheran

You are correct.... Which is why I cannot get overly fanatical over the KJV. I would, though, watch the other translations as well. In Acts 1:8 the TLB (Living Bible) restricts the power only to testify....

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. - Acts 1:8 KJV

But when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, you will receive power to testify about me with great effect, to the people in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, about my death and resurrection.” - Acts 1:8 (TLB)

Power in the Greek is dynamis, in which the Strongs Concordance does not restrict only to testify....

δύναμις dýnamis, doo'-nam-is; from G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself):—ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle(-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work

So... The Living Bible effectively watered that passage down greatly.

rockytopva · May 29, 2020

rockytopva said:
You are correct.... Which is why I cannot get overly fanatical over the KJV. I would, though, watch the other translations as well. In Acts 1:8 the TLB (Living Bible) restricts the power only to testify....

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. - Acts 1:8 KJV

But when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, you will receive power to testify about me with great effect, to the people in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, about my death and resurrection.” - Acts 1:8 (TLB)

Power in the Greek is dynamis, in which the Strongs Concordance does not restrict only to testify....

δύναμις dýnamis, doo'-nam-is; from G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself):—ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle(-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work

So... The Living Bible effectively watered that passage down greatly.

The G1410 is dynamai, which could be taken as power to preach.... And an example of the G1410 word below....

And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able G1410 to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season. - Luke 1:20

But the translation is dynamis, which is a more powerful word....

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, G1411 and the glory, for ever. Amen. - Matthew 6:13

The KJVO Myth - Phony As A Ford Corvette !

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