THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

ClementofA · May 28, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Nonsense, the scripture in JUDE 1:7 does not say Sodom will be restored.

Nobody said it did. I quoted to you the following re Sodom:

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

LoveGodsWord said:
I do not believe in hell so I guess this is one of your cut and pastes again that are not relevant to our conversation.

You don't believe in Scripture? I posted scriptures which reference Gehenna (KJV, "hell") which is the lake of fire. If you believe in Scripture & the lake of fire, then you should not have so lightly dismissed this:

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

LoveGodsWord said:
What nonsense.

It's easy to call something nonsense. Something else to prove it or provide some intelligent remarks in support of such a claim:

Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily

LoveGodsWord said:
HEBREWS 10:26-39 is talking about those who reject God's Word when they have been given a knowledge of God's truth to continue in known unrepentant sin. The context is to God's judgements at the second coming. Not hard and easy to understand.

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.
[32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions;
[33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used.
[34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
[38], NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
[39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Already answered in posts to you here:

Heb.10:26:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Heb.10:27:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

LoveGodsWord said:
Why? It's a parable. What do you think it means? To me it means there will be punishment for the unrepentant wicked.

Some will recieve worse punishment than others. No one recieves endless punishment, endless tortures or endless annihilation:

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

LoveGodsWord said:
ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins all who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness. The MANY here are the saved. Note it does not say ALL

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

LoveGodsWord said:
The reward for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming is God' vengence and destruction of the second death in the lake of fire (see 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; REVELATION 21:7-8).

Already addresed to you here:

2 Thess.1:9
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

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agapelove · May 28, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
There is no scripture that teaches that the wicked are saved after the second coming. The scriptures provided show that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming. Did you read them?

How come you did not answer my questions?

LoveGodsWord · May 28, 2020

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Nonsense, the scripture in JUDE 1:7 does not say Sodom will be restored.

Your response...

ClementofA said:
Nobody said it did. I quoted to you the following re Sodom:

Your words not mine..

ClementofA said: ↑ Furthermore, Sodom (cf. Jude 1:7) will be restored:

I was only responding to what you wrote (emphasis above to your post is mine).

ClementofA said:
You don't believe in Scripture? I posted scriptures which reference Gehenna (KJV, "hell") which is the lake of fire. If you believe in Scripture & the lake of fire, then you should not have so lightly dismissed this:

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

It's easy to call something nonsense. Something else to prove it or provide some intelligent remarks in support of such a claim:

Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily

Already answered in posts to you here:

Heb.10:26:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Heb.10:27:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Some will recieve worse punishment than others. No one recieves endless punishment, endless tortures or endless annihilation:

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Already addresed to you here:

2 Thess.1:9
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

This is just more repitition and cut and paste. Did you have anything to share in relation to a discussion. All of the above has been addressed already through the context and scriptures already provided that prove your claims are in error. If you disagree your welcome to address these posts. If not cuting and pasting the same old context is not very conducive of a discussion is it?

LoveGodsWord · May 28, 2020

agapelove said:
How come you did not answer my questions?

Already did in the post you are quoting from. Why did you not answer my questions?

LoveGodsWord · May 28, 2020

Ok thanks for the discussion dear friend. I have to go and do some real life stuff for now. Goodness and here we are 1465 posts latter and 74 pages and not one scripture from Universalists that prove that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming? Well something to pray about I guess.

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word. :wave:

agapelove · May 28, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Already did in the post you are quoting from. Why did you not answer my question?

Your question was 'Did you read them'? Obviously I read them that is how I know "second coming" was mentioned 0 times. If that deadline is so urgent why is it not explicitly stated in ANY scripture that you can find? In fact I cannot find an expiration date anywhere in the Bible. Psalm 136 tells us how long God's love lasts and felt it so important that it had to be stated 26 times.

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Ok all of this is once again repitition already addressed.

Where did you ever address this:

Mt.1:21 refers to "His people" who will be saved from their sins. That's "Israel" (Mt.2:6), the nation referred to in the Old Testament, including all those who died in their sins, e.g. King Saul, Judas, the Pharisees, etc. This is truly "good news", not the bad news of Calvinism, SDAism, etc.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Ok all of this is once again repitition already addressed.

Where did you ever address ALL of the following comments:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
Where did you ever address ALL of the following comments:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

Go back and read the posts shared with you. ROMANS 5:18-19 has already been addressed to you in other posts (more than one shared only today) here. The other sections that follow do not effect what I have shared with you accept your claims that you can have God's salvation without faith which is proven incorrect in EPEHSIANS 2:8-9 and ROMANS 14:23. Anyhow nice talking to you. I will have to go for a while now.

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
This one has already been addressed throughout this thread and is only repetition on your behalf without responding to my post. I posted earlier here showing the context of 1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 is to the "BROTHERS" in Christ v1 who are babes in Christ and his Word v2-3; fightings over who is of PAUL and APOLLOS v4-5. Then about PAUL and APOLLOS sharing the Gospel (the Word of God) in planting the seed (Word) and watering to give the increase to the church v6-8. Then we are all to be labourers together with Christ in sharing the gospel whose foundation is JESUS Christ v9-11. Then we have PAUL stating whoever builds on this foundation (CHRIST) v11 in sharing the Gospel v12 his work in sharing the gospel will be manifest in the day of fire. Meaning those who are saved will not receive the destruction of the wicked (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9). Leads us to v14 that says If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward the foundation built upon here is to v11 Christ. Now context is established. This leads us to v15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. This is in reference to the work of sharing the gospel. So no this scripture does not teach anywhere that it is is reference to the wicked being saved at the second coming the context shows that it is a message to the believers, the context is to sharing Gods' Word and those being addressed as being babes in Gods' Word not sharing the gospel message correctly and pointing them to the foundation of the gospel which is JESUS CHRIST.

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

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ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Read the context and the scriptures already provided REVELATION 5:6-13 is in reference to the saved not the unsaved v8-10.

No, it's clearly speaking of EVERY creature in the entire universe:

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2020

ClementofA said:
Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

Repetition again dear friend. Why do you not address the content of my post if you disagree?

I posted earlier here showing the context of 1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 is to the "BROTHERS" in Christ v1 who are babes in Christ and his Word v2-3; fightings over who is of PAUL and APOLLOS v4-5. Then about PAUL and APOLLOS sharing the Gospel (the Word of God) in planting the seed (Word) and watering to give the increase to the church v6-8. Then we are all to be labourers together with Christ in sharing the gospel whose foundation is JESUS Christ v9-11. Then we have PAUL stating whoever builds on this foundation (CHRIST) v11 in sharing the Gospel v12 his work in sharing the gospel will be manifest in the day of fire. Meaning those who are saved will not receive the destruction of the wicked (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9). Leads us to v14 that says If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward the foundation built upon here is to v11 Christ. Now context is established. This leads us to v15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. This is in reference to the work of sharing the gospel. So no this scripture does not teach anywhere that it is is reference to the wicked being saved at the second coming the context shows that it is a message to the believers, the context is to sharing Gods' Word and those being addressed as being babes in Gods' Word not sharing the gospel message correctly and pointing them to the foundation of the gospel which is JESUS CHRIST.

Now I am claiming here that you are disregarding CONTEXT and have provided the context you leave out that shows that the scriptures here are talking about the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. If you disagree with the above why not show me where you beleive I am wrong? If you read my post you will see I have provided the context your not addressing that prove your in error. Anyhow really need to go for now. I will check back when I can latter bb for now :wave:

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are to the Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

LoveGodsWord said:
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Yep key verse is tha there is PEACE by the BLOOD OF HIS CROSS. Not all men accept it right? The reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself is in context to those who accept the BLOOD OF HIS CROSS. Many will not choose the BLOOD OF HIS CROSS to be RECONCILED. Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved? - Nope.

Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"

Also i would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. :idea:

Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea:

Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-7138/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Read more: What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
CONCLUSION: HEBREWS 10:26-39 is talking about those who return back to sin after they have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and reject it in order to live in unrepentant sin. By doing so they reject the gift of Gods dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God's grace and for them there remains no more sacrifice for sin because they have rejected God's Word in order to continue in sin. There is only one outcome according to these scriptures and that is [27] A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.

No more sacrifice for sins applies to those forgiven as well:

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

The meaning is not that if they sin they can't be forgiven. They can (1 Jn.1:9). The same applies to those of v.26. So your argument is a failure.

The meaning of no more sacrifice for sin is that Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrifices for sin. There are no more. There will be no more.

His sacrifice is sufficient to take away everyone's sins & that is exactly what it will do:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

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ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Now I am claiming here that you are disregarding CONTEXT

Clearly i regarded the context & proved my argument from the context:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
No you didn't dear friend you simply ignored my post and continued repeating yourself. l

No, your still not addressing the issues:

LoveGodsWord said:
You have not addressed anything in my earliar post the shows the context you left out.

I did address them by stating this:

You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

And the context doesn't change this:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

LoveGodsWord said:
Your claims here have been clearly refurted already in a post you have not even bothered to read or address.

Nonsense. How would you know what i read or didn't read? Can you read minds? Are you omniscient? I did read the human opinions you posted. And addresss them (see above). What else is there to say. Nothing in them changed Lam.3:31-33 KJV or refuted anything i said. If you think so, point it out & explain why. That's the proper way to do things.

LoveGodsWord said:
I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin.

So what? Lam,3:31-33 KJV - EXPANDS upon that and goes further to include "men" in general. Or do you not believe what is in front of your eyes? Or do you think God cannot speak of both Israel and "men" in general in the same context? That would be limiting God, wouldn't it? Would you want to limit God? Should that not worry you?

LoveGodsWord said:
Why you continue to ignore this is beyond me. As shown earlier through the scriptures....

Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

...............

Benson Commentary
Lamentations 3:31-33. The Lord will not cast off for ever — The truly penitent that put their trust in him, and sincerely desire and seek reconciliation with him: though he may for a time appear to estrange himself from them, yet he will certainly return to them. Though he cause grief — Though, as a prudent parent, he may see reason to chastise his people by affliction, yet as a kind and tender Father, who pitieth his children in misery, according to the multitude, the unspeakable greatness and abundance of his mercies, he will have compassion upon them. For he doth not afflict willingly — Hebrew, מלבו, from his heart, that is, of his own mere motion, without cause given him by the persons afflicted; or freely and with pleasure; nor grieve the children of men — Much less his own children. Hence judgment is called his strange work, and exercising mercy and loving-kindness his delight.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psalm 94:14; he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.

It seems dear friend God's Word disagrees with you and the posts your providing are simply smoke and mirrors. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Gods' Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him.

Here you just repeat your previous comments with some empty fluff added. Nothing changes the facts that i've posted above. So should you not be worried?

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ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Already addressed

Nope. You've never addressed this post's remarks:

After people are judged & cast into the lake of fire (LOF) there will be a new heavens & earth (Rev.20, 21). The dwelling place of God's people will be the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:2-3) & therein - there - will be no more death or pain. Yet death will remain & not be abolished in the lake of fire, for torments there will continue "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.14:11; 20:10). At the same time, "into the ages of the ages", the saints will reign (Rev.21:5). Who would they be reigning over if no one exists in the LOF? How could pain be no more everywhere while the wicked are still being tormented in the LOF at the same time the Scriptures say the saints are reigning? How could death be abolished everywhere while the second death still continues? Impossible. Neither could Love Omnipotent be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while any of the wicked are still wicked and in pain being tormented.

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28). God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

For further reading, here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Once again not relevant. I do not believe in Hell

You don't believe in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire referred to in my post:

God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Where is the scripture that says that the wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming?

Where is the scripture that says that the wicked NEVER receive everlasting life after the second coming? You don't have even one do you? I know.

Where is the Scripture says God's love expires like a carton milk at the second coming & He is impotent to save, & will be bitter, resentful & hateful to the wicked for all eternity?

You've been given the universal salvation Scriptures repeatedly in this thread & lightly dismissed them saying they speak of believers. Is that any way to study the Bible honestly & objectively in the sight of God?

LoveGodsWord said:
All your doing cut and pasting and repeating yourself and not addressing the scriptures I have shared with you

ClementofA · May 29, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
This is just more repitition and cut and paste.

No, all of this is salvation after Christ's second coming:

You don't believe in Scripture? I posted scriptures which reference Gehenna (KJV, "hell") which is the lake of fire. If you believe in Scripture & the lake of fire, then you should not have so lightly dismissed this:

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

It's easy to call something nonsense. Something else to prove it or provide some intelligent remarks in support of such a claim:

Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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