Getting the beasts straight

Douggg

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Not including the second beast in Revelation 13, the false prophet, for this thread.


Getting the beast(s) straight....

1. The dragon in Revelation 12 is Satan. And the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17:3 is Satan.

2. the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a is the original serpent (a beast) who was in the garden and used by Satan.

3. the beast in Revelation 17:8b is the end times person, the little horn, who will be killed and brought back to life, and possessed by the spirit of the original serpent who was in the garden, to become king 8 called the beast in Revelation 17:11, and in Revelation 13.
 

ewq1938

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the little horn, who will be killed and brought back to life


There is nothing in the bible about the little horn dying or being resurrected. Same goes for any beast in any part of Revelation.
 
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Douggg

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There is nothing in the bible about the little horn dying or being resurrected. Same goes for any beast in any part of Revelation.
Not directly regarding the text with the little horn in it, in Daniel 7 and 8.

Regarding the beast in Revelation 17:8b, though, in the text....

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

.... indicates that person will be witnessed by the world - (was) alive, then dies (is not), then comes back to life (yet is).

In Revelation 13, the one head is mortally wounded, but healed. Which pertains to the beast in Revelation 17:8b.
 
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ewq1938

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That isn't regarding a person nor death and resurrection. It's about a governmental system that used to exist, did not exist in John's time, but would exist again. It is specifically the ten horned/kings and 7 heads/mountains beast system/empire:

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Same beast is here:

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
 
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Douggg

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It's about a governmental system that used to exist, did not exist in John's time, but would exist again. It is specifically the ten horned/kings and 7 heads/mountains beast system/empire:
Identify that governmental system before John's time.
 
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ewq1938

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Identify that governmental system before John's time.


There is not enough to identify it but we know it wasn't Rome since Rome did exist at the time John wrote that.
 
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Douggg

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There is not enough to identify it but we know it wasn't Rome since Rome did exist at the time John wrote that.
Well, it is misinterpretation you have, imo. But I don't want the thread to get derailed on that account.
 
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eleos1954

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Identify that governmental system before John's time.

The text of Revelation states that John was on Patmos, a Greek island where, by most biblical historians, he is considered to be exiled as a result of anti-Christian persecution under the Roman emperor Domitian.

The Empire of Rome is still going strong today.
Since the Empire was founded in 27 BC, that gives us a lifespan of 507 years. However, the Eastern Roman empire, which split off from the Western Roman Empire in the 300s, lasted much longer than that, finally getting conquered and dissolved in 1453.
 
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d taylor

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Not including the second beast in Revelation 13, the false prophet, for this thread.


Getting the beast(s) straight....

1. The dragon in Revelation 12 is Satan. And the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17:3 is Satan.

2. the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a is the original serpent (a beast) who was in the garden and used by Satan.

3. the beast in Revelation 17:8b is the end times person, the little horn, who will be killed and brought back to life, and possessed by the spirit of the original serpent who was in the garden, to become king 8 called the beast in Revelation 17:11, and in Revelation 13.

King of The North (Daniel 11:36-40) is the same as Paul's man of sin, son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
The King of the North becomes the beast. after he is healed from his deadly wound. The King becomes the beast when after his wound, the king is inhabited/possessed by a spirit of a long departed Roman emperor (Revelation 17).

Antichrist equals the false prophet

The king of the North, antichrist and satan are the unholy trinity.

King of the north is also the little horn of Daniel 7
 
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Douggg

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King of The North (Daniel 11:36-40) is the same as Paul's man of sin, son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
The king in Daniel 11:36 is the beast. It is the same person as the revealed man of sin, son of perdition - after that person is killed and brought back to life.

The king is Daniel 11:36 is the "him" in Daniel 11:40.

the king of the south shall push at "him". And
the king of the north shall come against "him" like a whirlwind.

So the him is not the king of the north, nor king of the south, but the king of the west. The dictator of the EU, king of the west. Likely allied with the U.S. and Canada.

Antichrist equals the false prophet
The little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the beast are all the same person. The function of each role is different of course.

The false prophet will almost certain claim to be Elijah the prophet. And is not the Antichrist.
 
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d taylor

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Daniel 11:36 is the king of the north
The king in Daniel 11:36 is the beast. It is the same person as the revealed man of sin, son of perdition - after that person is killed and brought back to life.

The king is Daniel 11:36 is the "him" in Daniel 11:40.

the king of the south shall push at "him". And
the king of the north shall come against "him" like a whirlwind.

So the him is not the king of the north, nor king of the south, but the king of the west. The dictator of the EU, king of the west. Likely allied with the U.S. and Canada.

The little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the beast are all the same person. The function of each role is different of course.

The false prophet will almost certain claim to be Elijah the prophet. And is not the Antichrist.
I do not agree from 28 to 36 is speaking about the king of the north
The king in Daniel 11:36 is the King of the North

Daniel foresaw the breakup of Alexander's empire into four distinct kingdoms Daniel 8:20-22.
One of the four was the kingdom obtained by a general named seleucus, his kingdom was ancient mesopotamia (the north) and the other king named ptolemy acquired the region of egypt (king of the south) ptolemaic egypt. In Daniel 11, Daniel traces these two kingdoms and their conflicts up to Daniel 11:36 their Daniel begins to deal with the end of the age events.
 
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Douggg

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I do not agree from 28 to 36 is speaking about the king of the north
The king in Daniel 11:36 is the King of the North

Daniel foresaw the breakup of Alexander's empire into four distinct kingdoms Daniel 8:20-22.
One of the four was the kingdom obtained by a general named seleucus, his kingdom was ancient mesopotamia (the north) and the other king named ptolemy acquired the region of egypt (king of the south) ptolemaic egypt. In Daniel 11, Daniel traces these two kingdoms and their conflicts up to Daniel 11:36 their Daniel begins to deal with the end of the age events.
I agree that Daniel 11:36 is end times. The prior verses are historic (to us).
 
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Douggg

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Joel Richardson and Criss White just posted a debate on the Beast (antichrist) today. Might go together well with this post
Neither understand the Antichrist concept.

upload_2020-5-30_21-34-23.jpeg
 
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DavidPT

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The king in Daniel 11:36 is the beast. It is the same person as the revealed man of sin, son of perdition - after that person is killed and brought back to life.

The king is Daniel 11:36 is the "him" in Daniel 11:40.

the king of the south shall push at "him". And
the king of the north shall come against "him" like a whirlwind.

So the him is not the king of the north, nor king of the south, but the king of the west. The dictator of the EU, king of the west. Likely allied with the U.S. and Canada.

Douggg, the first thing I note is this. Starting from verse 21 there is not a single mention of the king of the north by title until we get to verse 40. Only meaning from verses 21-39. I would then think the reason for that is, because in verse 21, the vile person, and in verse 27, one of the two kings, and in verse 31, the pronoun 'his', and finally, the king in verse 36, these are all one and the same, they are meaning the king of the north in verse 40. I therefore tend to read verse 40 like such.


Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him(meaning the king in verse 36, the vile person in verse 21): and the king of the north(meaning the king in verse 36, the vile person in verse 21) shall come against him(meaning the king of the south) like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he(meaning the king in verse 36, the king of the north, the vile person in verse 21) shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

And finally this---

Daniel 11:45 And he(meaning the king in verse 36, the king of the north, the vile person in verse 21) shall plant the tabernacles of his(meaning the king in verse 36, the king of the north, the vile person in verse 21) palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he(meaning the king in verse 36, the king of the north, the vile person in verse 21) shall come to his(meaning the king in verse 36, the king of the north, the vile person in verse 21) end, and none shall help him(meaning the king in verse 36, the king of the north, the vile person in verse 21).

So I'm not seeing how and why you are concluding that the 'him' in verse 40 is meaning someone from the west?
 
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Douggg

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So I'm not seeing how and why you are concluding that the 'him' in verse 40 is meaning someone from the west?
The beast will be ruling from Jerusalem. The south, the north, news from the east and north, are all relative to attacking him. The west is not mentioned, because the beast is the king of the west.

The beast will be the 8th king of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7. Which that kingdom is the Roman Empire.

In the end times, it is referring to the EU. The United States and Canada will likely be allies to the EU during that last 42 months.

All nations will be drawn into the middle east to come up against Jerusalem. The battles in Daniel 11:40-45 draw all nations into the middle east, as a preliminary. Which in Daniel 11:45, the beast's time runs out.

Because at that time, the six seal event will take place, and will terrify the kings of the earth, which they unify, assemble their armies at Armageddon, under the beast's, the false prophet's, and Satan's (incarnating the image of the beast) leadership to make war on Jesus.

Their end will 45 days later, from when they first see Jesus in heaven in the sixth seal, to when Jesus descends to earth.
 
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BABerean2

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All nations will be drawn into the middle east to come up against Jerusalem.

Which Jerusalem?

============================================================

A Tale of Two Cities: One Wicked, and One Holy

What is the wicked "great city" in the Book of Revelation? Is it identified below?


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Are there two different groups of Israelites in this passage?)


Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.



1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.



2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.



Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
(See Romans 2:28-29)





Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

(See Romans 11:1-5 for two different groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah. There was a faithful “remnant” of Israelites, and the rest of the Israelites worshipped Baal.)




Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Where was our Lord crucified?)




Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.


Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.


Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. (Is the wicked “great city ”Mystery Babylon”?)


Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!


Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!


Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.


Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


What city replaces the wicked "great city"?


Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

======================================

Do you know the difference between the two cities?

.
 
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BABerean2

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Which Jerusalem has the Mt. of Olives that will be split in half when Jesus returns? Zechariah 14:4-5.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The wicked "great city" found in Revelation 11:8, which will be destroyed on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and found below in the Book of Revelation.

The wicked "great city" and the greatest earthquake in history are found in Revelation chapter 16.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

.
 
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Douggg

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Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The wicked "great city" found in Revelation 11:8, which will be destroyed on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and found below in the Book of Revelation.

The wicked "great city" and the greatest earthquake in history are found in Revelation chapter 16.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

.
Which Jerusalem has the Mt. of Olives that will be split in half when Jesus returns? Zechariah 14:4-5.
 
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