Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Der Alte · May 28, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
...
And this is of course verified after the nations get the zap and LOF immersion, with reference to NJ (that's the New Jerusalem, not New Joisy):
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (21:24)
And just so we don't start to backslide into partiality, the HS adds:
The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b)...

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
This paints a rosy picture but let us add some very relevant context.

Revelation 22:2
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Reading this vs. alone one might get the idea that every person living or dead in every nation will be healed. Let us read 9 vss. later where John says,

"Him that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11

Quite evidently every person living and dead in every nation was not healed, vs. 2, since some remained unjust and filthy, vs. 11.

Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Note there is a condition in vs. 14 only those who "do his commandments" "have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Those who do not do His commandments do not have this right.
And vs. 15 shows us once again the every person in every nation were not healed there are still "dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, and liars outside."

Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Although, according to some, in vs.2 every person, living and dead, in every nation are healed in vs. 18-19, people are being punished and their part in the book of life taken away.

Shrewd Manager · May 28, 2020

Der Alte said:
Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
This paints a rosy picture but let us add some very relevant context.

Are you a Rosicrucian der Alte? Say it ain't so.

Der Alte said:
Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Translation: If you want in, you gotta fly straight.

And then 'Come' said the Spirit and Bride.

Translation: We'll support you through the renewal process. (That's 'refined gold' support level, sorry no platinum available).

Der Alte said:
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Translation: [See my footer in blue below.]

So don't go all partial on the total victory of Christ, man.

Major1 · May 28, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
As per #475 Sir.

'Come' say the Spirit and the Bride (yes the Church is mentioned in Revelation), the free gift of eau de vie awaits the overcomer, wash your robes in the blood of the Lamb (aka the LOF treatment). That's all over Rev 22. GOOD NEWS!

The Hound of Heaven never misses.

Again.....you only understand what YOU want to and with out context it means nothing.

Shrewd Manager said:
As per #475 Sir.

'Come' say the Spirit and the Bride (yes the Church is mentioned in Revelation), the free gift of eau de vie awaits the overcomer, wash your robes in the blood of the Lamb (aka the LOF treatment). That's all over Rev 22. GOOD NEWS!

The Hound of Heaven never misses.

IMHO, the "Bride " is the church and it is also the habitation of the church.

I guess I needed to be clearer for you. I apologize if I misled anyone. My comment was to the fact that ALL born again believers will be removed at the Rapture which is at the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation peroid.

At that time they (Church) will be in heaven and not on the earth there for the church is not in view in the Revelation story.

Now as you posted the BRIDE.
Ephesians 5:25-27 gives us the account that Jesus will present to Himself (Christ) the radiant Church in the same way a husband is presented a wife= BRIDE.

Now then, we see in 2 Corth. 11:2-3 where Paul relates the Church to Christ’s bride.

So, when we come to Revelation 19-21, where reference is made to the “wedding of the Lamb”, the bride of the Lamb and the wife of the Lamb.

So what is the Scripture telling us?????????

It is clear, at least to most Bible scolars, that this bride is the New Jerusalem the city sceen in Revelation 21:2.......

"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."

The plain black and white English we see that the New City of God is the Church and note that IT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN.

That means the church was IN HEAVEN --RAPTURED-- and is now become the habitation of the church so that could NOT BE SEEN IN THE REVELATION STORY just as I stated.

ClementofA · May 28, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
(Matthew 6:13, ASV)

If you swear to follow to damnation, how can you say your leader is Christ?

Compare what Paul said:

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh"

Major1 · May 28, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dr. Marvin Vincent

olethron aionion in 2 Thess. 1:9:

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aidios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5).

Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Revelation 20:12-14
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Major1 · May 28, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Seems there's 4 fingers pointing back at 'someone' there lol.

If you have any relevant and substantive comment to make on the 3 Revelation references I gave, by all means.

Just to summarise, those scriptures contain the promise of salvation of all the nations, followed by its fulfilment in the form of post-judgment repentant nations given healing. They qualified!

Beautiful isn't it? And that's what our God is about, Beauty, Truth, Wisdom, Love, Faith, Hope, Good, Holy, Glory, Perfection.

These are not just words, you know. They're choc-full of the most profound sense of VALUE which imbues our soul and renews us daily as we drink of the blood of the Lamb and eat of his flesh.

Revelation 20:12-14
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

ClementofA · May 28, 2020

Major1 said:
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV / 23 helpful votes
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mark 9:48 ESV / 23 helpful votes
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

The usual deceptive translations of Scripture, leading to bible contradictions such as with:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Could most modern translations be in error?

ClementofA · May 28, 2020

Major1 said:
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

XYZ said:
Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

KOLASIS:
Are You of Israel?

ClementofA · May 28, 2020

Major1 said:
So your entire argument comes down to YOUR idea after you have changed and or rejected the Word of God.

I haven't changed anything & you ignored my comments:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

ClementofA · May 28, 2020

Der Alte said:
"Him that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11
Quite evidently every person living and dead in every nation was not healed, vs. 2, since some remained unjust and filthy, vs. 11.

Be filthy...still...but not forever.

"The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9."

Revelation 22:11 -

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

While we're on the subject, here's a few cross references which show similarities to Rev.22:11:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Mt.15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life.

Is there the slightest hint of endless punishment in any of those verses or Rev.22:11? No.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

And, now, for another commentary on Revelation 22:11:

"Is it possible that it means: “ready or not, here i come to bring judgement, whatever state I find you in?” Maybe I am stretching here, I fear."

"I am quite sure that the subsequent warning/promise means this (i.e. the common promise of YHWH, this time as Jesus, coming to reward and/or punish those according to their works.) So I have no problem with this preceding verse also having that meaning (or at least topically connecting to that meaning) as well."

Filthy Still??

And for yet another interpretation:

I expressed my opinion that this verse is supposed to be an indication of intransigence and perseverence in the final days of the tribulation. It is notably sandwiched between two very strong indications that those who remain “filthy” will not only keep being exhorted to come in, but that (as with the kings of the earth) they will actually do so.

I expect the statement is meant as a rhetorical counter-comparison, not as a command. You all go on being like that. But we will go on being like this; and here is what that means:
yes, there is punishment on the way, but we will never give up on loving you and encouraging you to wash and come home.

I would be more worried about it, if it wasn’t only smack between two examples of continuing and successful evangelism, but also wasn’t clarified by a massive amount of scriptural data otherwise.

It would seem that an annihilationist would have to construe part or all of this chapter to mean it takes place in the present day (for which there is some indication, since after
all evangelism is a present-day activity at least. ) The filthy can hardly go on being unjust after the lake of fire judgment if they are annihilated out of existence after
all! Fortunately, it is not my problem to try to explain how this verse must occur within continuity of at least one or maybe two calls to hopeful present-day evangelism while also
appearing to contravene any hope of that evangelism being successful flatly in the face of the surrounding data.

I expect a Calvinist would point to this as being the distinction between the elect and the non-elect, the latter of whom God never intended to save and so who are confirmed in their
sins forever by God, rendering the question of annihilation moot. But it seems an awful jump to have “the filthy” bluntly condemned in hopelessness in comparison with the “righteous”
who keep on being righteous; and then to have to explain why shortly afterward the Spirit and the Bride and the one who hears them (i.e. the righteous who are busy being righteous,
unlike the ones who are still loving and fondling their sinning) are exhorting with Jesus for the “filthy” to slake their thirst and wash their robes in the river of the water of life
coming out of the New Jerusalem, so that the “filthy” can obtain permission to enter and eat of the tree of life. Again, fortunately, not my problem.

It is a tough verse to read with the context in any case. Which to me signals that the meaning is probably not supposed to be straightforward, but rather some kind of figure of speech; thus my opinion about it being a counter-point comparison, introducing the distinction that soon follows afterward. (Which is literally the final specific revelation of the book.) [/
quote]

Filthy Still??

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Der Alte · May 28, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Are you a Rosicrucian der Alte? Say it ain't so.
Translation: If you want in, you gotta fly straight.
And then 'Come' said the Spirit and Bride.
Translation: We'll support you through the renewal process. (That's 'refined gold' support level, sorry no platinum available).
Translation: [See my footer in blue below.]
So don't go all partial on the total victory of Christ, man.

Typical UR evasive, convoluted response which does not address any of the in-context scripture I quoted.

Shrewd Manager · May 28, 2020

Major1 said:
Revelation 20:12-14
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Yes, repetition is good but it doesn't advance your claim.

I've just showed you by triangulating the issue, that the nations get saved. Now the nations are by definition unbelievers, so would be hot-tub-bound by virtue of Rev 21:8:

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

So how do you reconcile the fact that we have promise and fulfilment of the nations being saved, with the fact that they get turfed into the LoF in between?

Powers of deduction called for here, Major.

Shrewd Manager · May 28, 2020

Der Alte said:
Typical UR evasive, convoluted response which does not address any of the in-context scripture I quoted.

Another brother with the '4 fingers pointing back' problem lol.

Der Alte · May 28, 2020

ClementofA said:
***

ClementofA said:
The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."
Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."
Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."...

Hart does not self identify as a Greek scholar and he does not list any study in Greek.

Hart earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Maryland, his Master of Philosophy degree from the University of Cambridge, and his Master of Arts and Doctor of Philosophy degrees from the University of virginia. He has taught at the University of Virginia, the University of St. Thomas (Minnesota), Duke Divinity School, and Loyola College in Maryland. He served as visiting professor at Providence College, where he also previously held the Robert J. Randall Chair in Christian Culture. During the 2014—2015 academic year, Hart was Danforth Chair at Saint Louis University in the Department of Theological Studies. In 2015, he was appointed as Templeton fellow at the university of Notre Dame Institute for Advanced Study.

And the usual quotes from single author UR supposed "literal" versions.
Before I proceed here is a little demonstration of words being defined altho the words define/definition ae not used.
Here is a Korean word EH. It looks like the English letters capital "e" and capital "h." The name of the first letter "E" is "tikut" it is somewhat similar to our letter "t". The name of the second letter "H" is "ae" pronounced like the letter "a" in "at." The word is pronounced "ta" as in "tack." This refers to when a person curls all the fingers of a hand tightly into the palm.
These ECF define “aionion” as eternal

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107.] The Epistle to the RomansChap VII
David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.

Eternal life is paired with incorruptible love.

Justin The First Apology. Chap XIII
For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.

“Eternal” is paired with unchangeable

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book II. Chap V
3. The [immediate] Creator, then, is not the [real] Author of this work, thinking, as He did, that He formed it very good, but He who allows and approves of the productions of defect, and the works of error having a place among his own possessions, and that temporal things should be mixed up with eternal, corruptible with incorruptible, and those which partake of error with those which belong to truth.

“eternal” is contrasted wth temporal/temporary

Athenagoras A Plea for the Christians.
Chap. X. - The Christians Worship the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being - I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say “His Logos”], for we acknowledge also a Son of God.

“eternal” is paired with “impassible” and “illimitable.”

Fragments of Clemens Alexandrinus. – I. - From the Latin Translation of Cassiodorus.
“For he that will love life, and see good days;” (1Pe_3:10) that is, who wishes to become eternal and immortal. And He calls the Lord life, and the days good, that is holy.

“eternal” is paired with immortal.

Tertullian Part first Apology Chap. XLV
No doubt about it, we, who receive our awards under the judgment of an all-seeing God, and who look forward to eternal punishment from Him for sin, — we alone make real effort to attain a blameless life, under the influence of our ampler knowledge, the impossibility of concealment, and the greatness of the threatened torment, not merely long-enduring but everlasting, fearing Him, whom he too should fear who the fearing judges, — even God, I mean, and not the proconsul.

“everlasting” is contrasted with long-enduring.

Origen De Principiis. Book I. Chap II
I11. That is properly termed everlasting or eternal which neither had a beginning of existence, nor can ever cease to be what it is. And this is the idea conveyed by John when he says that “God is light.” Now His wisdom is the splendour of that light, not only in respect of its being light, but also of being everlasting light, so that His wisdom is eternal and everlasting splendour.

“everlasting” and “eternal” are described as “neither had a beginning of existence, nor can ever cease to be what it is.”

The Epistles of Cyprian. Epistle LXXX
2. Let no one think of death, but of immortality; nor of temporary punishment, but of eternal glory; since it is written, “Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints;” (Psa_116:15) and again, “A broken spirit is a sacrifice to God: a contrite and humble heart God doth not despise.”

“eternal” is paired with immortality and contrasted with temporary.

Novatian Treatise Concerning the Trinity. Chap. XXXI.
Thus God the Father, the Founder and Creator of all things, who only knows no beginning, invisible, infinite, immortal, eternal, is one God;.

“eternal” is described as “knows no beginning, … infinite, immortal”

Gregory Thaumututgus A Declaration of Faith Part 1
There is one Lord, Only of the Only,3 God of God, Image and Likeness of Deity, Efficient Word,4 Wisdom comprehensive5 of the constitution of all things, and Power formative6 of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, Invisible of Invisible, and Incorruptible of Incorruptible, and Immortal of Immortal and Eternal of Eternal.

“eternal” is paired with Incorruptible and Immortal.

Der Alte · May 28, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Another brother with the '4 fingers pointing back' problem lol.

And you still have not addressed the scripture I quoted. Whereas I did address 4 verses which you switched around trying to make them support your assumptions/presuppositions. But I have grown to expect this from UR-ites.

a-lily-of-peace · May 28, 2020

FineLinen said:
Hi there Lily: I have been searching and searching for the Scriptures that speak of "eternal damnation". Alas, I keep getting a "please modify your search & try again" response!

It’s in Mark 3:29 of the KJV but if you translate differently you can search “αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος“ and maybe we agree not to follow anyone there?

a-lily-of-peace · May 28, 2020

ClementofA said:
Compare what Paul said:

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh"

That says he could, but he never did, otherwise he couldn’t have said that for him, “to live is Christ and to die is gain.”

a-lily-of-peace · May 28, 2020

I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

(1 Corinthians 9:26-27, ASV)

ClementofA · May 28, 2020

Der Alte said:
And you still have not addressed the scripture I quoted. Whereas I did address 4 verses which you switched around trying to make them support your assumptions/presuppositions.

Speaking of assumptions/presuppositions:

Der Alte said:
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as we see here.

Which recalls what you did here, twice:

Der Alte said:
Rubbish! You didn't say those exact words but you said the same thing

Only in your imagination of the fake quote of me you posted. Which BTW you failed to link to any post of mine with the context of my actual quote, so who knows what the context said since you purposely left it out. As you do again here:

Der Alte said:
"Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. So because Jesus didn't say all this when He said "I never knew you" that to you means someday those He said "I never knew you" will be saved regardless?

Der Alte said:
Where does this say "Jesus will save all mankind even the unrighteous after death?

Are those who openly reject(ed) Jesus still considered His people?
Luke 19:26-27
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Where did that say anyone will NEVER be saved, but sadisticlly tortured throughout endless eons? Or this:

Der Alte said:
Then of course we have.

Matthew 7:21-22
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

You would have us believe that verse 21 does not say
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;"
But instead means,
"everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven righteous and unrighteous alike."

Did you miss verse 22 of the context which is speaking of what will happen on a certain "day", not eternal destinies? Nothing there states they cannot be saved at some point in the future beyond that "day".

By the same kind of logic you would have us believe that no one will be saved because all have been unrighteous & 1 Cor.6:9 says:

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"

Remember this:

Der Alte said:
.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died."

Der Alter said:
Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

FineLinen · May 28, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
It’s in Mark 3:29 of the KJV but if you translate differently you can search “αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος“ and maybe we agree not to follow anyone there?

Dear Lily: there are exactly two passages of Scripture that express "eternal", both in reference to the Aidios God of Glory.

The aionios blasphemy is NOT, (fortunately for many Christian posters), NOT without consequences, but certainly NOT aidios!"

Young's Literal Translation
Chapter Parallel
Mark 3:29 (YLT) but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'
Weymouth New Testament
Chapter Parallel
Mark 3:29 (WNT) but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages."

Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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