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BrotherD

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You are you saying the Apostles were wrong in their declarations of it being "Soon, At hand, about to take place, must shortly come to pass, in a very little while, without delay"... but you a re right?

Just trying to understand your position on the terminology of "soon" you are using.

Do you know something the Apostles didn't?

I never said they were wrong. Remeber and this is the Lord's word:

2 Peter 3:8 KJV — But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2,000 years have passed and to the Lord that is only 2 days. Jesus gave us the book of Revelation and the book of Daniel so we can discern the times. The apostles worked to spread the gospel, as we should, to usher in the day of the Lord. The scriptures tells us:

Luke 12:40 KJV — Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Revelation 16:15 KJV — Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

He commands us to be ready always, but he did give us prophecies so we can know for sure when the time would be near and what order it would come. I know nothing except what the Spirit has taught me according to the word of the Lord.
 
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BrotherD

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It's nice to know that you are aware of the fact that there is misinformation out there and that some are deceived by the devil... just not you.... right?

I know what the Lord has revealed to me and this is not me being deceived. I love the truth and i love correction and need it at times. I know what little bit i posted in the OP is truth. I did not come up with this, the scriptures supplied the terminology and prophecy, while history fulfilled it. Prove all things. I believe without a doubt that the time of trouble from Daniel 12:1 is very near, but I don't know when it will all be said and done. Scriptures state:

1 Thessalonians 5:21 KJV — Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV — Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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Abomination that maketh Desolate

Matthew 24:14-15
[14]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; AND THEN SHALL THE END COME.
[15]When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Where did Daniel speak about an abomination of desolation?

Daniel 11:31 KJV — And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE.

Daniel 11:45
[45]And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

In 508 AD king Clovis and the Franks defeated the Visigoths and paved the way for the papacy to fully develop. See this link on more info about 508ad:
http://www.patmospapers.com/daniel/in508.htm

This was extremely important because the CHURCH (PAPACY) used the STATE (king CLOVIS) to eventually uproot/wipe out 3 Germanic tribes from 508-538 AD. These 3 tribes where the Ostrogoths, Vandals, and Visigoths, they were Arian which means non-Trinitarian. See this link: Arianism - Wikipedia The church fornicating with the state is an ABOMINATION to God.

A pure woman in bible prophecy is a church:

Ephesians 5:25-27
[25]Husbands, love your WIVES, even as Christ ALSO LOVED THE CHURCH, and gave himself for it;
[26]That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27]That he might present it to himself a GLORIOUS CHURCH, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

A harlot in bible prophecy is an apostate church:

Jeremiah 3:6-8
[6]The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding ISRAEL hath done? SHE is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath PLAYED THE HARLOT.
[7]And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
[8]And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding ISRAEL COMMITTED ADULTERY I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Israel was the church in the wilderness:

Acts 7:37-38
[37]This is that Moses, WHICH SAID UNTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
[38]This is he, that was in the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Therefore a church is liken to a woman.

Now lets get to the end time application of church and state that Jesus warned us we should look out for.

Revelation 17:3,5,12,16
[3]So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a WOMAN (church) sit upon a scarlet coloured BEAST (kingdom or state, Daniel 7:23), full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns (kings, Daniel 8:21).
[5]And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
[12]And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[16]And the ten horns (kings) which thou sawest upon the beast (church), these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her DESOLATE and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and BURN HER WITH FIRE.

The abomination of the woman is her fornicating with the beast:

Leviticus 18:22-23
[22]Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: IT IS ABOMINATION.
[23]Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Revelation 17:3 is the church and state abomination that maketh her desolate.

Lets look and see how prophecy is being fulfilled today:

Pope Francis’s address to a joint session of Congress on September 24, 2015 marked a first in the history of the Catholic Church and United States.
Pope Francis Visits U.S. Congress/

This happened one day after the Day of Atonement/Judgment Day. One of God's holy days where he judges the children of Israel, and those who didn't afflict their souls and confess their sins were cut off.

The church also met with the kings of the earth the next day on September 25th, 2015:

The Vatican flag will fly at UN headquarters in New York for the first time on September 25, the date when Pope Francis will speak there.

The UN and the Holy See agreed that the Vatican flag would be raised in the morning with no special ceremony, at the same time that flags of other member-nations are raised.

UN will fly Vatican flag for first time during Pope's visit | News Headlines

This was the beginning of the end that Christ alluded to in Matthew 24:15, church and state.

Recently:
NEW YORK - President Donald Trump identified himself as the “best [president] in the history of the Catholic Church” in a conference call for Catholic leaders and educators Saturday, where he warned that issues at stake in the upcoming presidential election, particularly on abortion and religious liberty, “have never been more important for the Church.”
Trump says he's 'best president in history of the Church' in call with Catholic leaders/

This was in April this year. Trump is going to do all he can for the catholic church and that relationship is an abomination.

The constitution of the United States also prohibits this:

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws which regulate an establishment of religion, prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the right to peaceably assemble, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights.

Now because of this abomination (church and state) God will judge the church and WHEN she is burned with fire this is a judgment from God that has its roots in the law of God.

Revelation 18:2,4-5,8
[2]And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
[4]And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
[5]For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
[8]Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Thus saith the Lord:

Leviticus 21:9
[9]And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

She (the church) has fornicated with the kings of the earth and she will be burnt with fire.

Matthew 11:15 KJV — He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I don't know what to say to your stringing of Bible passages to attempt proof of your pre-determined point about Trump and the RCC. On that point, you quote the Constitution about the establishment of any one church. That had specific meaning in the early days that the Constitution forbids any church to become the government's favorite, the way the Church of England in that country. Trump did not establish the Catholic Church as the only church working closely "hand-in-glove" with the govt.

I have another observation and question: Why do you take passages out of their context, which is essential for Bible interpretation. For example, Matthew 24 as a whole is Jesus' prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem 40 years later mixed with his prophecy about his second coming, which is yet future. I have no idea what the abomination is before his return, but it's pretty obvious that it is also the Romans who burned down the temple and because the gold melted between the stones, they took it apart stone by stone, as Jesus predicted. Please use Scripture in the contexts of its chapter, book, and the whole Bible.
 
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Douggg

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Because I am amil, You and I will probably differ on this point, but I believe the dragon (Satan) was not in the pit in the first part of Rev 12. I believe he was cast into the pit when he was cast out of heaven and cast into the earth. It was when Jesus was crucified and caught up to his throne, at which point that Satan was cast out into the earth and into the pit. Satan was overcome by the blood of the lamb (Rev 12:11)
On the amil view, yes we will probably have to agree to disagree on that point.

I don't think Satan has even been in the bottomless pit, himself.

I put the war in heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 as right after the middle of the 7 years. I think it is talking about the second heaven, not the third heaven.

When Satan is cast down to earth, it says rejoice ye heavens (indicating plural).

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I believe the Beast of Rev 17 is the beast with 7 heads. But I do not believe you can separate the dragon and the beast here. It is when Satan is set loose from the pit is when he gave his power to the beast with 7 heads.
I don't think Satan is cast into the bottomless pit until after Jesus returns.

During the 42 months of the beast's reign, there is statue image made of him. And the false prophet does some sort of deceptive miracle that makes it speak and come to life.

What I think is that Satan incarnates that image, a miracle, but a lying miracle. And the world is required to worship that image.

Here is my chart which summarizes my view(s)....

upload_2020-5-27_19-54-15.jpeg
 
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JacksBratt

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I know what the Lord has revealed to me and this is not me being deceived.

I'm sure that the others feel just as strongly that they are not being deceived.

I love the truth and i love correction and need it at times.

And what? The others don't like truth and correction? They can settle for a bit of incorrectness?

I know what little bit i posted in the OP is truth.

And, I know that if you were to start a thread on this topic.. it would go on for pages with you agreeing with many and arguing with many.. that know that they own the truth.

I did not come up with this, the scriptures supplied the terminology and prophecy, while history fulfilled it.

I understand.... except... there are many people who feel just as strongly that the scriptures and supplied terminology and prophecy disagree with your view.

Prove all things. I believe without a doubt that the time of trouble from Daniel 12:1 is very near, but I don't know when it will all be said and done. Scriptures state:

1 Thessalonians 5:21 KJV — Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV — Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Yes, that's all well and good... You are perfectly right to believe what you want to believe.

Others are just as right to believe contrary to you..

Stating that something like you did and claiming it to be the one and only way to believe.. is not convincing anyone.
 
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BABerean2

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I don't think Satan has even been in the bottomless pit, himself.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

If the beast ascendeth out of the bottomless pit in the future, where is he now?

.
 
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Oseas

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In Revelation, I can only identify 3 evil characters, which seem to align with Daniel:
1) The Dragon (Satan or the devil)
2) The 1st Beast (7 heads)
3) The 2nd Beast (False Profit)

What is interesting to me are "the mouths". We read when the (3) spirits like frogs came out of their mouths.

Rev 16
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.



Notice in Rev 13:5 as we read about the mouth of the 2nd beast (false profit). In fact, this seams like it is actually the mouth of the image of the beast. The false profit gave power of life to the image that it should both speak and kill those who did not worship the image. Well it spoke and killed the saints in (Rev 13:7).

Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.



The 2nd beast (false profit) was in fact, one of the heads of the 1st beast with 7 heads. It was the head that was wounded and then was healed. It was healed when it descended out of the pit and went into perdition. But the dragon gave power to the beast with 7 heads. The beast with 7 heads gave power to the 2nd beast (false profit). The 42 months was directly related to the 2nd beast (false profit) that went into perdition.

Rev 17
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


The mouth of the dragon can be seen in (Rev 12:15 & 16)
Rev 12
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Hi Marcum
Greetings
As I promised in the end of my post above #71, I come back to comment about 10 kings that are linked to the Beast of sea and also are part of the red Dragon's body, that is the great Dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world.Rev.12:9.

The matter is very complex and extensive, be patient, please.

2) The 1st Beast (7 heads and 10 horns)
Although we be focused in Revelation, we cannot forget that the 10 kings are linked to Daniel 2-Nebuchadnezzar's statue-verses 40-43, whose verses describe the fourth kingdom, the kingdom of iron represented by two legs, and also by the feet and 10 toes, as is revealed in the verses 41-43: 41KJV And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay (Jewish part), and part of iron(Gentile part), the kingdom shall be divided (divided between Jewish and Gentile rulers); but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42KJV And as the (10) toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken(fragile). The question is: Who or what are these 10 kings? 43-CJB(Complete Jewish Bible) 43 You saw the iron mixed with clay; that means that they will CEMENT THEIR ALLIANCES by intermarriages; but they won’t stick together any more than iron blends with clay.

That said, we must understand that the Beast of sea ALONE is unable to establish a religious kingdom in whole earth or around the earth.

To identify who are these 10 kings, let us analyse before some details to help us to understand who are them. In my view, I focuse in what is obvious, as follows:
-two legs of iron
-two feet; part of potters'clay(Jewish part-Isaiah 64:v.8), and part of iron(Gentile part).They are linked to each other although so different from the origin.
-10 toes; part of potters'clay(Jewish part-Isaiah 64:v.8), and part of iron(Gentile part).

Detail:
In my view, it seems very clear that the divided kingdom between Jewish and Gentile rulers will happen now, in the present time, much probably in this new decade, it because Israel remained 1878 years exiled or banned from their land, and only now ISRAEL is a consolidated nation.

That said, let us come back to Revelation for analysing chapter 13.
IN MY VIEW THE FIRST BEAST IS THE MILLENNIAL PAPACY-EACH ELECTED POPE- THE RELIGIOUS SYSTEM THAT DEVELOPED FROM THE ROMAN KINGDOM-4TH KINGDOM

Revelation 13:v.1-10 - The FIRST Beast; the Beast of sea is a Gentile Beast, which rose up out of the sea-(sea= peoples, nations, multitudes and tongues); Note that this Beast is very old, it has existed for millennia, it is a millennial Beast.

1) The Dragon (Satan or the devil) who has 7 heads, and 10 horns, and a TAIL.
THE BEAST OF THE EARTH-EARTH IS ISRAEL-THE BEAST STILL NEEDS TO MANIFEST- HE HAS TWO HORNS-BY ALLEGORY TWO REIGNS OF ISRAEL-AND TWO FEET OF STATUE-DAN.2-

Revelation 13:v.11-18 - verses 11-12: 11 And I beheld ANOTHER Beast coming up out of the EARTH (earth is Israel); and he had TWO horns like a lamb, and he spake as a Dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the FIRST Beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST Beast-the Beast of sea-,whose deadly wound was healed.(Only 0ne of the 7 heads-7hills-will be wounded. Is it South America? I think so).

It is interesting to perceive that the Beast of the Sea - the Papacy -, for the time being, he is quiet as in a state of drowsiness or "stand by", but when the Beast of the earth- a Jewish Beast- manifest himself as a messiah in Jerusalem-Israel-, then the religious systems of the world will be changed, the world's religious system will undergo a major change, because the Beast of the earth, the false messiah, a false Christ, he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

THEN THERE WILL BE TWO BEASTS IN THE EARTH. ONE IN VATICAN CITY-ITALY-, AND ANOTHER IN JERUSALEM-ISRAEL. THIS TERRIBLE EVENT WILL HAPPEN SOON.

The question is: Who are or what are the 10 kings (10 toes of the feet) that is linked to the Gentile Beast of sea?

From there the two Beasts will meet and combine to make a fusion between Judaism and Catholicism, and both will create an Universal Religious Kingdom, part of potters' clay (Jewish part), and part of iron(Gentile part), the kingdom shall be divided (divided between Jewish and Gentile rulers); but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with brittle clay. And as the (10) toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken(fragile).
NOTE: We must understand that the Beast of sea ALONE is unable to establish a kingdom, as is written, he needs to CEMENT an ALLIANCE by intermarriages with the Jewish Beast of the earth, the Beast like a lamb, in fact the ESOTERIC, AND KABBALISTIC, AND SPIRITIST messiah of the Jews, that speaks as Dragon, in fact a false messiah, AN IMPOSTER, as is written in John 5:v.43-44.

That said, we can get to the identification of the 10 kings.

When the Jewish Beast of the earth, the false messiah to cement an alliance by intermarriage with the Pope, the ruler and guide of the RCC, then both will combine or make a deal to build a religious kingdom or religious empire, the alliance between both Pope and false messiah will be sealed and consolidated by granting the Pope to settle in Jerusalem, on the throne of the false messiah, for in that time, one of the seven(7)heads of the Beast of sea is being mortally wounded, then the false messiah, the Dragon, will give to the Pope his Power, and his Seat, and Great Authority-Revelation 13:v.2-,then the deadly wound of the head of the Beast of sea will be healed, and all the world will be wondered after the Beast. And they, the world, will worship the Dragon-the false messiah-which will give power unto the Beast of sea: and they will worship the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make WAR with him? Revelation 13:v.3-4 - (There will be a WAR against the Beasts of sea, and of the earth).

And who will be the first RULER of the kingdom is, by prophecy, the Beast of the sea -the Pope- as is written in Revelation 13:v.5.

Now see, the kingdom of Israel is formed by 10 tribes only. The kingdom of others two tribes, is the kingdom of Judah. This detail explains why the Beast of the earth has two horns(Revelation 13:v.11), but he represents only Israel with its 10 tribes. And it is in this point that we can discern and identify who are the 10 kings of the Beast of sea represented by each head of each tribe of Israel, ten sons of Jacob. Sad. Sad. Very sad. Genesis 49:v.1- And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the LAST days.

A detail: Genesis 49:v.17- 17 Dan shall be a SERPENT by the way, an ADDER in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Here is the origin of the Dragon. When Jacob saw this vision he claimed: verse 18 - 18 I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord.

Another great detail: Revelation 13:v.12 - 12 And he - the false messiah-the Beast of earth- exerciseth all the power of the FIRST Beast before him, and causeth the earth -Israel-10 tribes- and them which dwell therein-the Jewish people- to worship the FIRST Beast, whose deadly wound was healed. verses 14-16 - 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth-Israel- by the means of those miracles which he has power to do in the sight of the Beast-Beast of sea-; saying to them that dwell on the earth-Israel-, that they should make an image to the Beast, which was wounded by a Sword-the Word of God- and did live. 15 And he has power to give life unto the image of the Beast, that the image of the Beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

That said, we can conclude that the Beast of the sea will rule the kingdom in the first period of 42 months-Revelation 13:v.5, in accord was previously combined between both Beasts. Ended this FIRST period of 42 months, immediatly the Beast of earth-the false messiah-will retake his throne, and then will fulfil Daniel 12:v.11; and Math.24:v.15; and 2Thessalonians 2:v.9-12, among others:
2Thessalonians 2:v.9-12
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Its it.
About the TAIL of the red Dragon and getting to the false prophet-Revelation 16:v.13-16- this matter is for a new post.
By the way, what is your interpretation concerning the TAIL of the red Dragon? Have you studied this by chance?

May our LORD God bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen



 
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Douggg

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Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

If the beast ascendeth out of the bottomless pit in the future, where is he now?

.


In the bottomless pit.

The scarlet colored beast the woman is riding in Revelation 17 is Satan.

I know what you may be thinking..... therefore Satan is the beast in the bottomless pit.

No. That's not it. Satan, himself, is not in the bottomless pit. But there is a connection between Satan and that beast.

In Revelation 12, the Dragon is that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The above verse is indicating who the beast (Revelation 17:8a) is in the bottomless pit.... The original beast, the serpent in the garden that Satan used to get Adam and Eve to fall into sin.

That serpent was a literal beast, not a human, nor an angel. It had intelligence and could speak. God put enmity between that serpent and the woman; between the serpent's seed and the seed of the woman. Between the beast, the end times person (the serpent's seed) and Jesus (the seed of the woman). It is talking about literal and metaphorical at the same time.

__________________________________________________

The end times person, in Revelation 11, designated as the beast after the spirit of the original beast (in the garden) possesses him, is who makes war against and kills the two witnesses.
 
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BrotherD

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I don't know what to say to your stringing of Bible passages to attempt proof of your pre-determined point about Trump and the RCC. On that point, you quote the Constitution about the establishment of any one church. That had specific meaning in the early days that the Constitution forbids any church to become the government's favorite, the way the Church of England in that country. Trump did not establish the Catholic Church as the only church working closely "hand-in-glove" with the govt.

I have another observation and question: Why do you take passages out of their context, which is essential for Bible interpretation. For example, Matthew 24 as a whole is Jesus' prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem 40 years later mixed with his prophecy about his second coming, which is yet future. I have no idea what the abomination is before his return, but it's pretty obvious that it is also the Romans who burned down the temple and because the gold melted between the stones, they took it apart stone by stone, as Jesus predicted. Please use Scripture in the contexts of its chapter, book, and the whole Bible.

I didn't take it out of context my friend.The scriptures state:

Isaiah 28:13 KJV — But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Most of what Jesus said in Matthew 24, went for then and now. What happened to Jerusalem will happen to the end of the world.
 
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BABerean2

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In the bottomless pit.

The scarlet colored beast the woman is riding in Revelation 17 is Satan.

I know what you may be thinking..... therefore Satan is the beast in the bottomless pit.

No. That's not it. Satan, himself, is not in the bottomless pit. But there is a connection between Satan and that beast.

In Revelation 12, the Dragon is that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The above verse is indicating who the beast (Revelation 17:8a) is in the bottomless pit.... The original beast, the serpent in the garden that Satan used to get Adam and Eve to fall into sin.

That serpent was a literal beast, not a human, nor an angel. It had intelligence and could speak. God put enmity between that serpent and the woman; between the serpent's seed and the seed of the woman. Between the beast, the end times person (the serpent's seed) and Jesus (the seed of the woman). It is talking about literal and metaphorical at the same time.

__________________________________________________

The end times person, in Revelation 11, designated as the beast after the spirit of the original beast (in the garden) possesses him, is who makes war against and kills the two witnesses.


Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.



Unless you think the two witnesses are men made of wood, and metal, the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church. In Revelation 1:20 Jesus said the "candlesticks" are a symbol of the churches, and Paul used the "olive tree" as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles, grafted together into the same olive tree.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Do you think Jesus changed His mind about using the "candlesticks" as a symbol of the churches after He wrote Revelation 1:20?

.
 
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Douggg

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Unless you think the two witnesses are men made of wood, and metal, the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.
The two witnesses are two men. Their bodies will lie dead in the street of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days.
Do you think Jesus changed His mind about using the "candlesticks" as a symbol of the churches after He wrote Revelation 1:20?
You are veering way off topic, getting into promoting new covenant faith group doctrine.
 
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TMarcum

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On the amil view, yes we will probably have to agree to disagree on that point.

I don't think Satan has even been in the bottomless pit, himself.

According to (Rev 20:1-3), it says that Satan was bound by a great chain for 1000 years. I do not believe that Satan was physically put in a hole and sealed up. I believe this is figurative language stating that he has no power.

As I stated, I believe that Christ took that power from him when he gave his life on the cross. The great chain that keeps Satan bound is the saving power of the Holy Spirit (given at the day of Pentecost). Satan being bound only applies to Christians. The sinner man already belongs to Satan. Jesus said Satan is their father. Those whose names are not written in the book of life, belong to Satan. So Satan will never be bound to the sinner man, regardless when you believe the 1000 year period to be. But satan does not have power over the spirit of God. Stronger is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. The light of the world overcomes the darkness. This is why satan is bound to the saints. He is powerless against the spirit of God.

But we know that Satan will be loose after the 1000 years for a little season. He is loose only because the of the fullness of the gentile race. When Satan is loose, no more new souls will be saved. This occurs when the beast ascends out of the pit and kills the 2 witnesses (Rev 11:7). From this point, no one repented of any of their sins. But there were still saved people. Those that endured until the end will be saved. But all the saints will all be sealed, the gospel will have been preached in all the earth, and God will not call any more to repent. Paul said God will send them strong delusion that they will believe a lie because they received not the love of the truth (2 Thess 2:10). Jesus is the love of the truth. This is what frees Satan from the pit is the ceasing of the preaching of the gospel. Which is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe.


I put the war in heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 as right after the middle of the 7 years. I think it is talking about the second heaven, not the third heaven.

When Satan is cast down to earth, it says rejoice ye heavens (indicating plural).

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
The text plainly says Satan was cast out and the war was won by the blood of the Lamb (Rev 12:11). This was 2000 years ago when Christ died on the cross.

Regarding the 2nd heaven, I agree, it is the 2nd heaven which is the realm that Satan roamed. He came in the temple with Job when worshiped and he sacrificed for his children. But when Christ died, he cast out the prince of the world (John 12:31). Satan can no longer come into the fellowship of the spirit because Christ is that door way. Yes, Satan can come into the membership but not in the spiritual worship of the spirit and truth and described by Jesus to the woman at the well. This is the heaven that Satan was cast out of which is the 2nd heaven.


I don't think Satan is cast into the bottomless pit until after Jesus returns.

During the 42 months of the beast's reign, there is statue image made of him. And the false prophet does some sort of deceptive miracle that makes it speak and come to life.

What I think is that Satan incarnates that image, a miracle, but a lying miracle. And the world is required to worship that image.
Regardless when the period is, it is a 42 month period after he is loose from the pit and afterward, the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the Lord, when he returns to gather the saints:

In (Rev 17:8), the text says the beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition.
In (2 Thess 2:8), Paul says the son of perdition will be destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the Lord when he comes to gather the saints.
In (Rev 13:5), the text says he had power to continue for 42 months.
In (Rev 11:2 & Rev 11:11), the text said the beast that kiiled the 2 witnesses ascended out of the pit and it was given 42 month for them to trodden under foot the holy city.
 
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BABerean2

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The two witnesses are two men. Their bodies will lie dead in the street of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days.

You are veering way off topic, getting into promoting new covenant faith group doctrine.

I am quoting Jesus and Paul, but you are quoting you.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

.
 
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TMarcum

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About the TAIL of the red Dragon and getting to the false prophet-Revelation 16:v.13-16- this matter is for a new post.
By the way, what is your interpretation concerning the TAIL of the red Dragon? Have you studied this by chance?

May our LORD God bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen

I believe the tail of the beast is a reference to the power that was given to the early beast in the times of Daniel such as King of Babylon, that killed all the prophets and holy men. This continued up to and including John the Baptist being killed by the 5th head (Rome King Herod and Caesar). The tail is the 5 heads or kings that are fallen meaning tail end.

I believe the stars in Rev 12 is figurative language that represents the saints that were cast down meaning they were killed.

In Rev 12
The Woman - are those who lived by the Mosaic Law of Moses.
The Man Child - is Jesus
The Seed and Remnant of the Seed- are those who believe in Jesus as Messiah
 
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Douggg

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I am quoting Jesus and Paul, but you are quoting you.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

.
The subject of the thread is the abomination that makes desolate.
 
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TMarcum

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The two witnesses are two men. Their bodies will lie dead in the street of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days.

You are veering way off topic, getting into promoting new covenant faith group doctrine.

I would like to offer some food for thought. For 20 years of my Christian life, I believed the 2 witnesses to be 2 men of the bible. But as I began to tie in more references to the bible that mention the two witnesses, I was led to believe that this was more figurative language, as we read throughout the book of Revelation, to represent something else.

Let me explain. The two witness are also called the two olive trees. We read about the two olive trees in (Zech 4:2). The text of the book is copied below at the bottom. The angel of the Lord told Zechariah that these are the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. When he saw this vision, the angel was giving reference to the foundation of the House of the God that was being rebuilt and the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven (More about the 7 can be found in Zech 3:9 as he is referring to the 7 eyes of the Lamb). In Rev 5:6, we read again about the 7 eyes of the Lamb.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Now turn to Rev 11:1, we read again about measuring line and he is being asked to measure the temple, alter and those that worship therein.

This whole 1st part of this chapter has to do with the body of Christ. The measuring he was using was not a physical measuring of the temple or the alter but was symbolically measuring them that worship therein. The 1260 days is the period leading up to the time Satan is released from the pit. This was a reference to the whole church of God being sealed. This is where we get the timeline of 7 years of tribulation. But I am not sure that the 1290 days are all that terrible. But this is a reference to the last of the preaching of the gospel. Just as John the Baptist came preparing the way of the Lord, so will these prepare the way for the coming of the Lord. When the gospel has been preached in all the earth, then the end will come. The two witness which stand before the God is his Word and the Holy Ghost preached by the saints or the church of God.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


This was what the angel of the Lord was indicating to Zechariah, in a time before anyone had heard of the term "Word" and the "Holy Spirit". The servant "The Branch" was 1st mentioned to him in the previous chapter (Zech 3:8). In the book of Zechariah, the two witnesses was prophecy regarding the Messiah and comforter, as they were preparing the building of the house of the Lord at 400 BC.

The candlestick is also mentioned in Zech 4:2 referring to the Church. So when we read about the Olive tree, it is a symbolic representation of the church, including the two witnesses of God (The Word and Holy Ghost).

So when we read about the two witnesses being killed by the beast that ascended out of the pit. This is a reference to the saints being killed and we are seeing the resurrection of the saints being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Then in last of Revelation 11, we are introduced to the beast and the outer court. This is a reference given to the holy city that will be trodden under foot for 42 months. This is the period that the beast is given (Rev 13:5) when he ascends out of the pit and goes into perdition. Paul speaks about the son of perdition in (2 Thess 2:3-12), which is destroyed by the Lord at his coming to gather the saints (Rev 20:9-10) & (2 Thess 2:8).

Zechariah 4
1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
 
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Douggg

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Then in last of Revelation 11, we are introduced to the beast and the outer court. This is a reference given to the holy city that will be trodden under foot for 42 months.
John is told to measure the temple and them who worship within. It appears to me that the temple will be downsized, and there will be Jews worshipping within the temple before the gentiles under the beast control the city and temple for 42 months following.

Not to measure and them in the outer court because that is the part of the temple which the gentiles will be worshiping. At the time of Jesus, in the second temple, the outer court was called the court of the gentiles because that is the part of the temple which gentles were allowed.

1260 days (the witness time of the two witnesses) + 3 1/2 days + the 42 months (1256.5 days) = the 2520 day 7 years.

In Revelation 12:

1260 days (part of which the Jews have fled into the mountains) + the earth time as the war in the second heaven takes place + the time, times, half time remaining ,Satan = the 7 years.
 
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TMarcum

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John is told to measure the temple and them who worship within. It appears to me that the temple will be downsized, and there will be Jews worshipping within the temple before the gentiles under the beast control the city and temple for 42 months following.

Not to measure and them in the outer court because that is the part of the temple which the gentiles will be worshiping. At the time of Jesus, in the second temple, the outer court was called the court of the gentiles because that is the part of the temple which gentles were allowed.

1260 days (the witness time of the two witnesses) + 3 1/2 days + the 42 months (1256.5 days) = the 2520 day 7 years.

In Revelation 12:

1260 days (part of which the Jews have fled into the mountains) + the earth time as the war in the second heaven takes place + the time, times, half time remaining ,Satan = the 7 years.

I think this is another good example of figurative language of revelation.

The 1260 days is a reference to the saints. In the case of the Woman in Rev 12, she is being fed or nourished. The feeding is that of the gospel of salvation. Both times the Woman was fed in Rev 12, are times she was secured by the gospel of salvation.

- The 1st time the woman was fed, was by the teaching of Jesus to the apostles, as he taught them the way of the new grace covenant (Rev 12:6).
- The 2nd time she was fed will be the time the remnant of Blinded Israel will hear last of the gospel of salvation and be converted to Christianity (Rev 12:14), symbolized by the 2 witnesses.

The 42 months is language that is always associated with the beast.
 
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Oseas

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I believe the tail of the beast is a reference to the power that was given to the early beast in the times of Daniel such as King of Babylon, that killed all the prophets and holy men. This continued up to and including John the Baptist being killed by the 5th head (Rome King Herod and Caesar).

Hi TMarcum
Greetings

Reading your interpretation above, my first thought is that you tried to decipher a biblical riddle through histories of facts around Scriptures, in my view or vision we should search to interpret Scriptures by Scriptures. See, we're talking about the Red Dragon's TAIL, with 7 heads and 10 horns-Revelation 12: v.4-, the old serpent, called Devil and Satan-Revelation 12:v.9. Based in Scriptures, can I (or we) associate the Red Dragon with 7 heads, 10 horns and a TAIL (Satan's entire body) with the King of Babylon? No, we can not. Why not? Revelation 1:v.1 is a proof we cannot associate, because, as it is written, the works of the Dragon's TAIL are after Christ, not before Him. Furthermore, the angel of the Lord (in fact an archangel) said to John-around year 95AD: Rev.1:v.19-20:
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 ... The seven STARS are the ANGELS of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Revelation 12:v.3-4 - 3 ...behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his TAIL drew the third part of the stars...and did cast them to the earth (fallen angels/fallen messengers. Today there is a lot of fallen Churches's angels).


The tail is the 5 heads or kings that are fallen meaning tail end.

No, TMarcum, the allegory you are imagining and applying is not biblical. The Dragon's tail has nothing to do with 5 heads or kings, as you can see in Isaiah 9:v.15-16.
Revelation 17:v.9-10 says: 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven HEADS are seven MOUNTAINS, on which the WOMAN sitteth. 10 And there are seven KINGS: five are fallen, and ONE is(the sixth), and the other(the seventh) is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


I believe the stars in Rev 12 is figurative language that represents the saints that were cast down meaning they were killed.

I quoted above Revelation 1:v.20 that explains who are the angels. But Daniel 12: v.3 is more comprehensive.

In Rev 12
The Woman - are those who lived by the Mosaic Law of Moses.
The Man Child - is Jesus

In my view or vision, the WOMAN is the mother of Michael -not JESUS - as is prophesied in Daniel 12:v.1, inclusive there will resurrection under sound of Michael's trumpet as is written in Daniel 12:v.2. And Paul the Apostle, prophesyed, saying: 1Thes.4:v.15-16: 15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel-MICHAEL-, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Corinthians 15:v.51-53:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Revelation 12:v.7 - 7 And there was WAR in heaven: Michael and his messengers fought against the Dragon; and the Dragon fought and his messengers.
 
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Its not about the last day of the universe/planet, but about the last days of the Israel's era, the last days of the Old Covenant. Which was fulfilled in the lives of His generation, as predicted.

All the innocent blood from Abel to the last Old covenant prophet was counted to that generation.

The great tribulation happened between 66-70 AD. If it was meant to be before the end of the world, it would have no meaning to say that there will be no bigger tribulation after it.

No, what you're saying is a doctrine of men and does not align with what is written in God's Word.

Jesus made it plain in the parable of the fig tree that the specific generation that sees 'all those signs' would not die out until all those signs happen. The last sign Jesus gave there was the sign of His return and gathering of His Church, which of course has never happened.

So nice try with attempting to move Christ's return as already having happened, which is a doctrine of devils and not God's Word. I suggest you find a different Church to listen to.
 
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