Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

a-lily-of-peace

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And therein lies the problem: ME ME ME.

No room for self-sacrificial love in damnationist thinking, is there? All just 'rational self-interest'. Wake up sister, that's for the world, and the world is passing away (and before our very eyes atm).
I’m telling you this for your interest, not mine.

Jesus lay down his life because he could pick it back up. This was given to him by the Father, and he lay down his life so he could pick yours up too.

You say conditionally “if...” and since I know your beliefs don’t include for that “if” ever becoming a “when” you would feel secure that the thing you swore won’t come to pass.

But if (and only if) it does, I hope your response is to turn toward God not away.
 
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I’m telling you this for your interest, not mine.

The great gift of being able to state the bleeding obvious. I might add 'Get thee behind me'.

Jesus lay down his life because he could pick it back up. This was given to him by the Father, and he lay down his life so he could pick yours up too.

Quite. As Jesus died for all, so too shall all be raised again.

You say conditionally “if...” and since I know your beliefs don’t include for that “if” ever becoming a “when” you would feel secure that the thing you swore won’t come to pass.

But if (and only if) it does, I hope your response is to turn toward God not away.

We turn to God by following Jesus. And Jesus saves at all costs.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(Mt 16:25)
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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The great gift of being able to state the bleeding obvious. I might add 'Get thee behind me'.



Quite. As Jesus died for all, so too shall all be raised again.



We turn to God by following Jesus. And Jesus saves at all costs.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(Mt 16:25)

And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
(Matthew 6:13, ASV)

If you swear to follow to damnation, how can you say your leader is Christ?
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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Then the devil taketh him into the holy city; and he set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and saith unto him, If thou art the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written,

He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and,
On their hands they shall bear thee up,
Lest haply thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, Again it is written, Thou shalt not make trial of the Lord thy God.

(Matthew 4:5-7, ASV)
 
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Major1

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What 'NO'? You're essentially saying they get 'robo-judged' by the angry volcano god. And now 'all' does mean all? Very droll.

Verily I tell you, if they are sentenced to eternal damnation then I take up my cross and follow them in the spirit of compassion. And you, will you hide behind a veneer of self-righteousness as a whited sepulchre?

"NO".

Have you actually read the Bible????

Revelation 20:12-13.....
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works".

I am saying nothing except what the Bible says so your concerns are NOT WITH ME but with God Himself who wrote the Bible.

The BIBLE says that the lost people of all the ages will still be lost when they are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Since they are judged by their WORKS how then can they go to heaven????

Ephesians 2:8-9......…….
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Instead of spending your time insulting me, why don't you use that same time to read and answer that question Biblically???

The Bible says in Romans 3:23...….
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

John 14:6 Jesus says...…….
"I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except by Me".

Revelation 20:15...…….
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

And "NO", I will not be " hide behind a veneer of self-righteousness as a whited sepulchre" but instead will be under the shed blood of God Himself and the color of it is red!!!!!!

I will be happy to discuss anything with you but if you can only give insults then please do not bother to respond.
 
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Major1

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I'm not here to play word games. Either you accept God is absolute, perfect and good or you deny it. If the latter, you sin in unbelief. That's just how God's made the logic of truth.

Look, a Roman triumph entails the vanquishing of all adversaries, the bowed knees and confessions of the kings and the destruction and tributes of the subject nations. Which is greater: the annihilation and torture of the defeated or their true conversion to your way?

Have a little faith. God's victory will be absolute, all the nations they will come, Forgive us Father for our foolish prideful ways.

And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:3-4)

Doesn't get any clearer than that. The lake of fire delivers. God's judgments save. By the blood of the Lamb. Why does it hurt your elitist sensibilities? Please do some introspection.


Revelation 20:12-15...……..
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now since you are NOT HERE to play word games, all you need to do is post the book, chapter and verse where the Bible says that those in Revelation 20:12-15 accept Christ and are saved and removed from the Lake of Fire.
 
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FineLinen

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It’s not theological dispute, just don’t follow anyone to eternal damnation if, even if, in the case of, at any rate.

❤️

Hi there Lily: I have been searching and searching for the Scriptures that speak of "eternal damnation". Alas, I keep getting a "please modify your search & try again" response!
 
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FineLinen

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I am sorry to hear that but as with all thing, you have a choice.

iu
 
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FineLinen

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“For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope…”(Romans 8:20)

creature = ktisis

made subject = hypotassō

futility = mataiotēs

not willingly = ou hekōn

by reason of Him = dia hypotassō

This is the situation:

  1. Man did not choose to be a sinner.

  2. He was “made subect” to futility.

  3. The hypotassō is by reason of Him who made it so.

  4. To one end: see verse 21.
"The creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay."
 
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Major1

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How does Jesus' telling His followers to be ready indicate a pre-trib Rapture? I'm not seeing anything here that would indicate a pre-trib rapture. Yes, Paul says believers will be caught up in the air with the Lord. Why couldn't they then simply return to the earth? Are you aware of the "parousia"? In ancient times when a king was returning victorious from battle the people would go out to meet the king before he got back into the city. This is what Paul is describing. As Jesus returns His people will go out to meet Him before He reaches the city. In this case He is coming in the sky so His people will go up into the sky to meet Him. However, when this event would take place in ancient times the people and the king went into the city. So, If this is what Paul is describing it happens when Christ returns victorious.

I don't see anything in 2 Tessalonians 2:7-8 that speaks of the church being taken out of the world. It doesn't even mention the church.

I disagree that there isn't any Scripture that speaks of the church going through the tribulation.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matt. 24:21-22 KJV)

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:9-12 KJV)

First of my dear brother, there are NO Scriptures that suggest or imply that the church is sceen in the Revelation after chapter 4:1.

Secondly, Rev 3:10 tells us that...….
" Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Third, Paul speaking to the church said in 1Thess 5:9.....
" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation
by our Lord Jesus Christ"

I do not like to correct anyone and I hope you do not take this to be the case....however in Matthew which you quoted, He is NOT speaking of the CHURCH because for one reason the church did not ever exist until Pentecost.

Jesus was actually speaking to the Jews not the church so what you posted does not apply.

Then as for the Revelation Scriptures, that is the same case. The church IMHO was Raptured in Revelation 4:1 and will be in heaven.
On the earth will be 144K converted Jewsish virgin men who will be the evangelists on the 7 year Tribulation period.

Revelation 7:3-4......
"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Rev. 14:3-4.........
"And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

You said.........
"I don't see anything in 2 Tessalonians 2:7-8 that speaks of the church being taken out of the world. It doesn't even mention the church."

But you seemed to have forgtten 2 Thess. 2:1-2..........
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

"Brethren" = Church.
"By our gathering together unto Him/"Day of Christ" = Rapture
 
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Major1

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Hi there Lily: I have been searching and searching for the Scriptures that speak of "eternal damnation". Alas, I keep getting a "please modify your search & try again" response!
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV / 23 helpful votes
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mark 9:48 ESV / 23 helpful votes
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
 
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Have you actually read the Bible????

Meh, I'll wait for it to come out on blu-ray.

Revelation 20:12-13.....
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works".

Yes they are judged at the GWTJ. And we've already been told the outcome:

And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:3-4)

And this is of course verified after the nations get the zap and LOF immersion, with reference to NJ (that's the New Jerusalem, not New Joisy):

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (21:24)

And just so we don't start to backslide into partiality, the HS adds:

The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b)

Since they are judged by their WORKS how then can they go to heaven????

Ephesians 2:8-9......…….
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Those contentions make uneasy bedfellows. Seems it's not whether you've built cathedrals that matters, but whether you've been motivated primarily by the love of God, giving Him the glory in all you did. If not, you need to get a dose of God's love, that'll fix your wagon. Hence the need for the LOF treatment. What, you thought it was just for torturing?


And "NO", I will not be " hide behind a veneer of self-righteousness as a whited sepulchre" but instead will be under the shed blood of God Himself and the color of it is red!!!!!!

Well, by the grace of God I pray I have the courage to take up my cross and go help those in dire need. If I was to stand aside and watch in the notion that I was too righteous, I would be as a whited sepulchre. (Forgive me Lord!)

Remember the Good Samaritan? Isn't the condemned your neighbour too (might have actually been your neighbour on earth as well lol)?
 
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Major1

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Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

So your entire argument comes down to YOUR idea after you have changed and or rejected the Word of God.

Yes, it is just that simple.

Now allow me to ask you one question. Do you really think that I as a father,
and grandfather who knows literally hundreds of friends and family like to talk about anyone going to eternal torment in hell?????

You see my brother, there are lots of things in the Bible I do not like however that does not give me the liberty to reject them and make up something I do like.
 
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Revelation 20:12-15...……..
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now since you are NOT HERE to play word games, all you need to do is post the book, chapter and verse where the Bible says that those in Revelation 20:12-15 accept Christ and are saved and removed from the Lake of Fire.

As per #475 Sir.

'Come' say the Spirit and the Bride (yes the Church is mentioned in Revelation), the free gift of eau de vie awaits the overcomer, wash your robes in the blood of the Lamb (aka the LOF treatment). That's all over Rev 22. GOOD NEWS!

The Hound of Heaven never misses.
 
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Major1

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Meh, I'll wait for it to come out on blu-ray.



Yes they are judged at the GWTJ. And we've already been told the outcome:

And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:3-4)

And this is of course verified after the nations get the zap and LOF immersion, with reference to NJ (that's the New Jerusalem, not New Joisy):

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (21:24)

And just so we don't start to backslide into partiality, the HS adds:

The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b)





Those contentions make uneasy bedfellows. Seems it's not whether you've built cathedrals that matters, but whether you've been motivated primarily by the love of God, giving Him the glory in all you did. If not, you need to get a dose of God's love, that'll fix your wagon. Hence the need for the LOF treatment. What, you thought it was just for torturing?




Well, by the grace of God I pray I have the courage to take up my cross and go help those in dire need. If I was to stand aside and watch in the notion that I was too righteous, I would be as a whited sepulchre. (Forgive me Lord!)

Remember the Good Samaritan? Isn't the condemned your neighbour too (might have actually been your neighbour on earth as well lol)?

I am sorry that you can not agree with the Scriptures. There is actually not much else I can say to you.

You did say...…….....
"Well, by the grace of God I pray I have the courage to take up my cross and go help those in dire need. "

IF that is your wish then the best thing you could do is go to your neighbors and frinds and family ask ask them one simple question...........
"If you died today, do you think you will go to heaven".

Then you can give them gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ so that they can hear and be saved from the Judgment.

Romans 10:17.........
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".
 
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Major1

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No, I'm not a Johovah's Witness.

I don't think you're making stuff up. I here these same arguments from many others. These passages don't "teach" that man can live apart from the body. They are statements, they aren't teachings. Teachings are like what Jesus did on the Sermon on the Mount, you have heard it said... but I say unto you. If someone asked me where does that Bible "teach" that one is saved by grace, I would take them to Romans 3 and 4 where Paul spends about a chapter laying out an argument of how the Law was not sufficient to save and that how it's been by grace from the very beginning. That's teaching. You've given me a few passage from which you've deduced that man can live apart from that body. You've deduced that because you come to the text believing it. I see it all the time. When I say the Bible teaches that man is a physical being, I go to a passage that actually teaches it.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Here Moses recorded how God created man and he wrote it down to teach the Israelites. It says that God formed the man from the dust of the earth. That tells us what man is. He is the dust of the earth or the elements of the earth. Moses then records that God breath the breath of life into the man. The breath of life is something of God Himself. It's not man, it's God. Moses records that when God did this, the man became something else. He became a living soul. From this we see that a living soul consists of a man, the body, and the breath of life from God. Those two things when put together by God formed a living soul. Logic dictates that if those two things separate the soul no longer exists. It didn't exist before they were combined so it wouldn't exist when they are separated. We are told in Scripture that when they separate the spirit or breath, same word, returns to God. It's something of God and it returns to Him. The man, the Body returns to the dust. In the creation of man we have two things coming together to form a third. When one of those things is removed the thing they became no longer exists. We're told where these two thing go at death. There is nothing left to live on after death. Each part is accounted for. That is what I'm talking about when I ask where does the Bible teach that man can live on after death. The Bible teaches how God created man. What I see there is a man, the body. The breath or spirit of God, which is a part of God, it's not man. And those two combined to form a soul. It's all accounted for. When they separate there is nothing left to live on.

If you were able to show that the Bible "teaches" that man can live apart from the body, we'd have two conflicting accounts that would present some issues that would have to be worked out.

In the Bible the words that are translated soul are used two ways. They are use concretely of a living being and abstractly of life. The words nephesh and psuche which are often translated soul are also often translated life. Look at Genesis 35:18 that you posted, if you change soul to life the passage makes perfect sense and yet doesn't indicate that the dead live on.

Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation is a book full of symbolism. It would first have to be established that the souls under the altar are literally alive. If it's symbolism what does it mean? The first question is why are they under the altar? Where is the altar? John was seeing Heaven and Earth so where was the altar? Also, in the beginning of chapter 4 John is told to he would see things that will happen in the future. So, the events of Rev. 6 would take place in the future from when John was writing. Do we have any way of knowing that those events have indeed already taken place, or are the still future? If we can't determine that then we can't say that the souls are there yet. Personally, it's my belief that the souls are a figure. They represent something and that they're not actually there.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Jn. 11:24-26 KJV)

The first thing we see here is that Jesus is talking about the Resurrection. He's not talking about a state between this life and the Resurrection. But, look at what He says of the one who believe, though he may die, yet shall he live: and whoever lives and believes shall never die. So, what we see is one who believes, then dies, then is raised, and that one, who is raised, shall never die. So, the one who shall never die is the one who is resurrected.

All of these passage are easily understood in a way the doesn't require one to believe that the dead live on after the body.

You said...…..
"All of these passage are easily understood in a way the doesn't require one to believe that the dead live on after the body."

I agree in a way. Any and ALL Scripture can be easily mis-understood if the entire context is not considered.

Add that to a pre-conceived notion and you have the prescription for deception.

I would ask you to read carefully Luke 16:19-31 as it speaks directly to your concerns. It does not matter if you think it is a parable or not because it is IN the Word of God. Focus on your comment and nothing more.

In this passage of scripture Jesus told the story of two men who died and their existence after they died. One was a rich man who lived a life of magnificent luxury. The other was a poor man who was covered with sores and begged for a living, but a spiritual minded man. However, both men are represented as alive in another state of existence after death. In this story Jesus takes us into the world of the dead, into the world of hades(the unseen world), into which all people enter at death both the saved and the lost. There are few subjects which interest men more than life after death, and rightly so, for “It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment.” The story relates where the souls of two men went at death-- how they felt and whether they were happy or unhappy. The rich man was miserable and Lazarus was happy.

If they were happy or sad, or in torment or not, the point is that their aouls/spirit was ALIVE and they felt things such as thirst, seperation, memory, pain etc.

Isn't that the very opposit of what your thesis is?????

So I have a choice. Accept and believe what The Word of God says OR........
accept and believe what YOU have determined it says to YOU.

Bless you brother and be safe.
 
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I am sorry that you can not agree with the Scriptures.

Seems there's 4 fingers pointing back at 'someone' there lol.

Romans 10:17.........
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

If you have any relevant and substantive comment to make on the 3 Revelation references I gave, by all means.

Just to summarise, those scriptures contain the promise of salvation of all the nations, followed by its fulfilment in the form of post-judgment repentant nations given healing. They qualified!

Beautiful isn't it? And that's what our God is about, Beauty, Truth, Wisdom, Love, Faith, Hope, Good, Holy, Glory, Perfection.

These are not just words, you know. They're choc-full of the most profound sense of VALUE which imbues our soul and renews us daily as we drink of the blood of the Lamb and eat of his flesh.
 
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FineLinen

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Big Guy: are you slow by nature, or are you practicing lol?

Aionios is NOT aidios.

Aionios kolasis is NOT aidios damnation, NOT!

iu

Dr. Marvin Vincent

olethron aionion in 2 Thess. 1:9:


‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aidios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5).

Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?
 
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