Presbyterian With No Way to Join Reformed Fellowship

Sheep77 · May 27, 2020

Albion said:
??? Would you explain that to us a bit more?

It seems to me that by them saying "We're Calvinist" it means everything TULIP, no?

They didn't say they were Calvinists (yes, TULIP), but warned me that Covenant College is Calvinist

PloverWing · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
How liberal is the PCUSA? And we do have an EPC church here, but when I visited, and told them I wanted to go to Covenant College they warned me they were 'Calvinist' implying they didn't even understand Presbyterian ideas of how salvation works

The PCUSA is one of the mainline Protestant denominations. How liberal they are will vary from one congregation to the next. As I understand it, they are more accepting of a diversity of beliefs and backgrounds than the PCA or OPC, though they definitely fall within the Reformed tradition. Given that you're looking for a church that will accept you despite your shortcomings, a church that accepts people from a diversity of backgrounds might be a good fit for you. I think it would at least be worth a couple of visits.

I don't know what to make of the remark at the EPC about Covenant College being "Calvinist". Maybe they didn't know your background and just wanted you to understand the college's affiliation. I don't think I'd reject a church based on one person's oddly-worded comment; if the church seemed reasonable otherwise, then give them another visit.

In these days when everyone's worship services are on Zoom, it should be easy to virtually-visit several Presbyterian and other Reformed churches without having to drive a long way. Be patient in your visiting; unless there's a huge red flag, visit a church multiple times before making a decision. Remember that you're asking the churches not to reject you too quickly; don't reject the churches too quickly, either. Anybody can have one bad sermon, or say one clumsy thing at coffee hour. Forgive, as you would be forgiven, and all that.

SoldierOfTheKing · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
I had, but I'm Presbyterian, and believe there's too much Catholic traditions retained in their liturgy

Hmm... considering that you at one point seriously considered crossing the Tiber I wasn't anticipating that being an issue. You're speaking from personal experience, then? You've observed their worship and it wasn't something you could be a part of?

Albion said:
Are you certain of that...or is it just something you fear will happen?

The Reformed churches are not some sort of cult and should always welcome the return of a prodigal son. The most conservative of them--the PCA and the OPC being the best known--may have congregations that take the view yours did, but I do not believe that such a response is characteristic of them all. Of course, I recognize that not every city has a congregation of the EPC, for instance, but few are without a PCUSA presence.

The issue is, a Reformed church, and I'm talking about confessional reformed churches like PCA, OPC, URC - they're going to want to know where he fellowshipped previously, and especially if it was a Reformed congregation, whether he left in good standing or under discipline. If he left under discipline, they will want to why, and the reason will have to come up. They will contact his previous church to get their version of the story, and understandably, he's afraid that the new congregation will be no more sympathetic that the new. Not to say that it will happen, but it certainly could happen.

Hazelelponi · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:

I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.

3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.

I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.

I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.

I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in

Try a different reformed church. Seriously. Repentance should be accepted after a time.

Sheep77 · May 27, 2020

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Hmm... considering that you at one point seriously considered crossing the Tiber I wasn't anticipating that being an issue. You're speaking from personal experience, then? You've observed their worship and it wasn't something you could be a part of?

The issue is, a Reformed church, and I'm talking about confessional reformed churches like PCA, OPC, URC - they're going to want to know where he fellowshipped previously, and especially if it was a Reformed congregation, whether he left in good standing or under discipline. If he left under discipline, they will want to why, and the reason will have to come up. They will contact his previous church to get their version of the story, and understandably, he's afraid that the new congregation will be no more sympathetic that the new. Not to say that it will happen, but it certainly could happen.

I have been at least in a few Episcopal services: I know the ACNA is more Reformed theologically (at least in my area) but I stand strongly by the Regulative Principle of Worship

Sheep77 · May 27, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
Try a different reformed church. Seriously. Repentance should be accepted after a time.

What do you suggest? RPCNA, Free Church of Scotland?

hedrick · May 27, 2020

I’m not an admirer of the PCA, but your experience sounds extreme even for them.

As noted, the PCUSA is probably the easiest Refromed church to find. There are certainly Calvinists in it, and Calvin is carefully studied by our theologians, but our understanding of Reformed includes the “always reforming” part of the motto, while the PCA thinks it means sticking with the 17th Cent traditions unchanged.

for someone who was happy with the PCA version of reformed until you got burned, the PCUSA might be too liberal. Or you might conclude that what got you burned was precisely the things that make the PCA different and want to try the PCUSA. There are several other Reformed churches. Most of the smaller Presbyterian groups, and maybe the Christian Reformed Church. The Reformed Church of America is another major candidate, but it’s closer to the PCUSA in orientation.

Hazelelponi · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
What do you suggest? RPCNA, Free Church of Scotland?

Honestly, I would give another PCA church a chance, if that fit most with your understanding. I would think taking you out of communion would only ever be for a short time, and your definitely in the reformed faith belief-set.

But if you want to go farther afield then you should get some suggestions from @JM, or other reformed members. I'm too new a Christian to know about this sort of thing.

Semper Reformanda

^^ there's the reformed forum.

Sheep77 · May 27, 2020

hedrick said:
I’m not an admirer of the PCA, but your experience sounds extreme even for them.

As noted, the PCUSA is probably the easiest Refromed church to find. There are certainly Calvinists in it, and Calvin is carefully studied by our theologians, but our understanding of Reformed includes the “always reforming” part of the motto, while the PCA thinks it means sticking with the 17th Cent traditions unchanged.

for someone who was happy with the PCA version of reformed until you got burned, the PCUSA might be too liberal. Or you might conclude that what got you burned was precisely the things that make the PCA different and want to try the PCUSA. There are several other Reformed churches. Most of the smaller Presbyterian groups, and maybe the Christian Reformed Church. The Reformed Church of America is another major candidate, but it’s closer to the PCUSA in orientation.

Would the PCUSA be welcoming of someone that believes we should follow the WCF strongly, believes the Pope's the Antichrist, that homosexual acts are abominable, etc.?

Hazelelponi · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
Would the PCUSA be welcoming of someone that believes we should follow the WCF strongly, believes the Pope's the Antichrist, that homosexual acts are abominable, etc.?

They are too liberal for you, I imagine.

hedrick · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
Would the PCUSA be welcoming of someone that believes we should follow the WCF strongly, believes the Pope's the Antichrist, that homosexual acts are abominable, etc.?

Maybe. But you might feel out of place, except in a conservative congregation. There are some. I think it depends upon how you act. Most of us aren’t pleased with Christians attacking other Christians. There are plenty in the PCUSA who think homosexuality is contrary to scripture. But going around calling people abominable would get you in trouble. Even calling the Pope the anti Christ would likely be considered by many to be a problem. The classic position considers the office to be non Biblical but that’s different from attacking the a Pope as an individual.

I think it may be difficult to find a church that tolerates attacks on other Christians that won’t eventually attack you. But not all PCA churches work that way. It may actually be unusual.

Hazelelponi · May 27, 2020

Radagast · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion.

I'm having difficulty understanding the story here. Did you have any conversation with the pastor/elders about wanting to return, or did you just turn up in church? Most churches that have a formal process of excommunication also have a formal process of restoration.

Rescued One · May 27, 2020

I suggest trying a church without telling the members everything you believe is wrong. That drives people away. Zip your lips and listen and learn. If they are really preaching non-biblical lessons, you can quietly leave.

Sheep77 · May 27, 2020

Radagast said:
I'm having difficulty understanding the story here. Did you have any conversation with the pastor/elders about wanting to return, or did you just turn up in church? Most churches that have a formal process of excommunication also have a formal process of restoration.

I wasn't exocommunicated, I was under discipline

SoldierOfTheKing · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
I have been at least in a few Episcopal services: I know the ACNA is more Reformed theologically (at least in my area) but I stand strongly by the Regulative Principle of Worship

In that case, the best thing to do would be to go back to the church and do your best to work it out. It will require patience; it will require submitting to discipline that you do not see as just, and may indeed not be just. Try to determine what their conditions are for restoration to fellowship. When it becomes difficult,

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Matt. 5:28-31

If after is said and done your show of humility and contrition doesn't get you back in with them, then when you do go to another Reformed church, you'll have a stronger case having done everything you could to get back in good standing with your old congregation. The new congregation just wants to make sure that you're not just hopping congregations to evade biblical discipline, and you'll want to have a backstory showing that you're not.

Mark Quayle · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:

I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.

3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.

I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.

I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.

I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in

I don't understand why you think no Reformed church will allow you to partake in communion. That's just not so. Find yourself a small Reformed Baptist church, if you can't find a PCA church that will.

A note: Reformed believers are as different from each other as those of any other denomination. So are the Churches, though they have a lot in common too.

Sheep77 · May 27, 2020

SoldierOfTheKing said:
In that case, the best thing to do would be to go back to the church and do your best to work it out. It will require patience; it will require submitting to discipline that you do not see as just, and may indeed not be just. Try to determine what their conditions are for restoration to fellowship. When it becomes difficult,

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Matt. 5:28-31

If after is said and done your show of humility and contrition doesn't get you back in with them, then when you do go to another Reformed church, you'll have a stronger case having done everything you could to get back in good standing with your old congregation. The new congregation just wants to make sure that you're not just hopping congregations to evade biblical discipline, and you'll want to have a backstory showing that you're not.

But disciplined for what? Being young and naive and a victim of people that twisted the Scripture? I didn't leave my faith in Jesus or Scripture, I was deceived by people that twisted who Jesus is and what Scripture means.

hedrick · May 27, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
I don't understand why you think no Reformed church will allow you to partake in communion. That's just not so. Find yourself a small Reformed Baptist church, if you can't find a PCA church that will.

A note: Reformed believers are as different from each other as those of any other denomination. So are the Churches, though they have a lot in common too.

Conservative Reformed churches, which seems to be what he wants, will fence the table. Commonly they will ask only members of other similar churches who are in good standing to participate.

Radagast · May 27, 2020

Sheep77 said:
I wasn't exocommunicated, I was under discipline

I'm guessing that they excommunicated you when you left.

From their point of view, presumably, you walked away from Christ's church.

hedrick said:
Conservative Reformed churches, which seems to be what he wants, will fence the table. Commonly they will ask only members of other similar churches who are in good standing to participate.

And the "in good standing" will be an obstacle. Other similar churches may accept the OP, but impose some kind of process of transition to membership.

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