The Olivet Discourse

mkgal1 · May 27, 2020

I have been asking you about this quote of yours:

sovereigngrace said:
That prediction in Matthew 21:33-41 relates to God the Father pouring out His wrath upon Christ-rejecting Israel (in vengeance on those who rejected and killed His Son) throughout the intra-Advent, right up to (and including) Christ's coming and the final judgement.

......and now you have responded with:

sovereigngrace said:
The great moment in history that witnessed the actual outward commencement of the vast global assault upon the blinded nations occurred after Peter’s supernatural vision in Acts chapter 10. Peter’s vision of the sheet full of unclean animals in Acts 10:10–16 signified how God made no distinction under the new covenant between the Gentile and Jewish hearers. From Acts 10 (and the incident at Cornelius’ house) the Gospel was released unto the darkened heathen in a significant way. They would now be brought from darkness of paganism unto the light of Christ and His Gospel.

Okay.....we seem to be circling in closer to you narrowing down a time frame. After Acts 10....do you have something more specific? What are you calling "the great moment in history"?

mkgal1 · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
We see that through the various judgments of Father throughout the OT. But many have seen Christ. When He comes again every eye shall see Him.

I believe this is a point you are maybe missing.

Jesus was proving He is God (which is what the religious leaders considered blasphemy). He vindicated Himself in His resurrection and vindicated the saints at the destruction of the religious leader's place in 70 AD.

Hebrews 1:2-3 ~ But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

sovereigngrace · May 27, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I believe this is a point you are missing.

Jesus was proving He is God (which is what the religious leaders considered blasphemy). He vindicated Himself in His resurrection and vindicated the saints at the destruction of the religious leader's place in 70 AD.

Jesus and the Father are united but distinct.

sovereigngrace · May 27, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I don't disagree, but that doesn't discredit what I have said that Jesus said He would fulfill the Law and the words of the prophets.

No! This is what you said (you were very clear):

"Fulfilling" the words of the Law and the Prophets =/= "keeping the moral Law perfectly"'

Are you now backtracking from that?

mkgal1 · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Jesus and the Father are different.

Jesus said they are One.

John 10:30 ~ "I and the Father are one.”

The Triune God is different "persons" in One unified God.

Jesus of Nazareth is God incarnate.

sovereigngrace · May 27, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I have been asking you about this quote of yours:

......and now you have responded with:

Okay.....we seem to be circling in closer to you narrowing down a time frame. After Acts 10....do you have something more specific? What are you calling "the great moment in history"?

I already said it. Please read what I wrote instead of getting me to repeat myself. I don't change my position from post to post!!!

sovereigngrace · May 27, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Jesus said they are One.

John 10:30 ~ "I and the Father are one.”

The Triune God is different "persons" in One unified God.

Jesus of Nazareth is God incarnate.

Jesus and the Father are united but distinct.

mkgal1 · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
mkgal said:
I don't disagree, but that doesn't discredit what I have said that Jesus said He would fulfill the Law and the words of the prophets.

Sovereigngrace responded with: No! This is what you said (you were very clear):

quoting mkgal:
"Fulfilling" the words of the Law and the Prophets =/= "keeping the moral Law perfectly"'end quote

Sovereigngrace: Are you now backtracking from that?

No. I'm not backtracking.

Jesus said He would fulfill BOTH - and He fulfilling "the words of the prophets" (as I gave a few examples of earlier) isn't the same thing as "keeping the moral Law perfectly".

It is when He fulfilled the prophecies spoken of through Isaiah....Joel.....Daniel.....David.....Ezekiel....etc.

***Sorry about the weird formatting. I was just trying to get all the quotes in there.

mkgal1 · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Jesus and the Father are united but distinct.

This is probably the root of our disagreement.

We are also "united with God"......but we are NOT the same as Jesus. There is far more to it than that.

Jesus is God incarnate.

mkgal1 · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Jesus and the Father are united but distinct.

220px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png

mkgal1 · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I already said it. Please read what I wrote instead of getting me to repeat myself. I don't change my position from post to post!!!

"After Acts 10" is all I have seen that you've offered as an answer. It is honestly difficult wading through all the words in your posts trying to mine out the answers.

sovereigngrace · May 27, 2020

mkgal1 said:
This is probably the root of our disagreement.

We are also "united with God"......but we are NOT the same as Jesus. There is far more to it than that.

Jesus is God incarnate.

You are always trying to twist the truth. I don't appreciate that! I believe in the Trinity.

Thanks for the conversation.

mkgal1 · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Jesus and the Father are united but distinct.

John 10:31-38 ~
At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. 32But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”

33“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”

34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’d ? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”

claninja · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Where neo-Full Preterists get mixed up is that they see the coming of Titus in AD70 as the apex of history and the climactic coming of Christ.

No disagreement here. I believe the 1st coming was the apex of History.

sovereigngrace said:
The rest of us see Christ's one final literal physical coming of Christ in the future as the end of this age, the end of time, the end of corruption,

As a partial preterist, I do not disagree there is a future coming of Christ. We just disagree on how to define 70ad. You call it God pouring out His wrath. I call in a "coming in judgment", similar to that of the comings in the OT, which demonstrated that Christ was who He said He was.

sovereigngrace said:
Notwithstanding, whether one understands the term “at hand” as imminent or impending isn’t particularly important here,

I disagree.

sovereigngrace said:
Preterists make much of phrases like “at hand,” “quickly,” “shortly” or “near.” They try and use them to support their belief that Jesus has already come, the last day has already occurred and that we are now living in the new heavens and new earth.

Preterists take those words at their actual definition.

sovereigngrace said:
But such terms are totally relative. Our knowledge of biblical truth, our awareness of the context in question, a study of the meaning and usage of the original Greek words, and our ascertaining whether something is being explained from man’s finite perspective or God’s eternal perspective, aid us in understanding the time and event in view.

Relative to what?

God can tell us when there are far off or not yet:

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

Matthew 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

And God can tell us when things are near:

Revelation 22:10 and he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Mark 13:29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates

sovereigngrace said:
It carries the same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment.

By what English rule does the word "approach" ever not refer to something literally near? Where are you getting this from?

sovereigngrace said:
Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

Considering God can and has told us when things are near of far, this is a poor argument.

sovereigngrace said:
The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word.

What evidence do you have for this?

From strongs

of Time; concerning things imminent and soon to come to pass: Matthew 24:32; Matthew 26:18; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30, 31; John 2:13; John 6:4; John 7:2; John 11:55; Revelation 1:3; Revelation 22:10; of the near advent of persons: ὁ κύριος ἐγγύς, of Christ's return from heaven, Philippians 4:5 (in another sense, of God in Psalm 144:18 (); with the addition ἐπί θύραις, at the door, Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:29; ἐγγύς κατάρας, near to being cursed, Hebrews 6:8; ἀφανισμοῦ, soon to vanish, Hebrews 8:13.

claninja · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
As much as you want to make AD70 the central pivotal point of history, it is not.

straw man

sovereigngrace said:
Let me try and explain:

· Your standing (or position) is how God sees you “in Christ.” You are perfect and complete because you traded your filthy garments for Christ’s perfect righteousness. Colossians 2:10 tells us: “ye are complete in him.”
· Your state (or condition) refers to where you are in the sanctification process. It describes how you are gradually being conformed to the image of Christ through the internal work of the Holy Spirit and the ongoing work of the Word of God. This is an imperfect incomplete work as long as you are in this fallen body. Paul testifies in Romans 7:24-25: “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Our standing can never change, it cannot improve or decline, however, our state is constantly changing. The longer we are on this earth the more we should be maturing in Christ. This involves a process of purging and refining – essentially cutting away that which relates to our flesh. This is theologically called sanctification. This is us becoming more like Christ as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

I agree.

sovereigngrace said:
This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

So you believe there is sin/sickness/suffering/death/ all decay in heaven and for those who presently dwell in heaven?

mkgal1 · May 27, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Jesus was proving He is God

sovereigngrace said:
Jesus and the Father are united but distinct.

mkgal said:
This is probably the root of our disagreement.

We are also "united with God"......but we are NOT the same as Jesus. There is far more to it than that.

Jesus is God incarnate.

sovereigngrace said:
You are always trying to twist the truth. I don't appreciate that! I believe in the Trinity.

Thanks for the conversation.

Everyone can read our conversation, SG.

My original point was that Jesus is God.

I wouldn't expect that to be argued against. If you weren't arguing against that......you didn't make that clear.

sovereigngrace · May 27, 2020

claninja said:
straw man

I agree.

So you believe there is sin/sickness/suffering/death/ all decay in heaven and for those who presently dwell in heaven?

No, we are still living in an evil age on this corrupt earth, where sin, sinners, death, corruption, and Satan are still active. The reality is: experiential perfection has not arrived on this earth. It will arrive at the second coming when this earth and the redeemed are simultaneously delivered from the bondage of corruption by being regenerated. When man fell, creation fell. When man is glorified, creation will be glorified.

claninja · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
No, we are still living in an evil age on this corrupt earth, where sin, sinners, death, corruption, and Satan are still active. The reality is: experiential perfection has not arrived on this earth. It will arrive at the second coming when this earth and the redeemed are simultaneously delivered from the bondage of corruption by being regenerated. When man fell, creation fell. When man is glorified, creation will be glorified.

No to what? Do you agree or disagree that there is no sin/sickness/death/decay presently in heaven and for those who presently dwell in heaven?

BABerean2 · May 27, 2020

parousia70 said:
Then Which Coming is this?
Matthew 21:40-45
Are we still waiting for it, or has it happened, and If you say it's is past then WHEN did it happen?
When did the Lord of the Vineyard Come and destroy the wicked Vinedresssers?

The Father is the Lord of the vineyard in the text below.
He destroys those who killed His Son.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

.

parousia70 · May 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I believe the parable symbolically links the judgment of the wicked servants to Israel’s ongoing intra-Advent judgment, including AD70.

The Concept of a 2000 year long, "ongoing intra Advent Judgement upon Israel" is scripturally untenable.

In A. D. 70. the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (1 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny, BACK THEN (Luke 12:54-59).

Teaching that the Jews somehow needed to be punished further by God for another 2000 years + is not based on any scripture, but only on personal bias against them.

The Olivet Discourse

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Similar threads