The Sabbath of the TEN Commandments - for all mankind (V2)

Andre_b · May 27, 2020

klutedavid said:
We know the law is invalid.

We know the law cannot regenerate anyone.

We know the law was instituted for the unrighteous.

We know the law is weak and useless.

We know that breaking one law, is the same, as breaking the entire law.

We also know that the law still exists because without law there would be even more chaos. We still have sin like we all know but you claim lawlessness which is the complete opposite. The law of sacrifices was added. Just like Adam was covered by sheepskin for breaking God's law. The only thing that disappeared is that part of the law to cover you from your sins, it doesn't remove God's law. Paying for the debt changed, yes we all know he paid the entire debt, doesn't mean God's universal law is gone, only the law that takes care of the debt. Again, you believe in lawlessness.

BobRyan · May 27, 2020

Adam and Eve had freedom ... the serpent argued that they could have even more freedom if they would just listen to some of his/its ideas.

The people before the flood had freedom - but Noah was building a rather confining ark

Israel had freedom at Sinai but God said not to touch the mountain

The northern kingdom of Israel had freedom but God said that to continue to live in sin as did the pagans would bring about the ruin of the northern kingdom.

So many examples.. before we get to things like the mark of the beast in Rev 13 and a great many other NT examples.

klutedavid · May 27, 2020

Andre_b said:
We also know that the law still exists because without law there would be even more chaos.

There has always been sin and disobedience, whether the law exists or not. Leopards don't change their spots. The arrival of the law changed nothing in human nature. With or without the law people sin profusely. I don't know where you got the idea that law turns sinners into saints?

We still have sin like we all know

Thank you for admitting that you are a lawbreaker like the rest of us. No one rides the high horse around here folks. At least your starting to confess that you are a lawbreaker and not obedient to the law. Finally some honesty.

but you claim lawlessness which is the complete opposite.

I claim that all have fallen into sin and the flesh breaks the law everyday without fail. The flesh is unstoppable in it's disobedience and self righteousness. The flesh loves sin and breaking the law.

I do indeed claim that all people are lawless down to their very bone. Only the most evil creature could crucify their creator! The magnitude of that crime gives you a horrifying insight into our sinful nature. Utterly evil and beyond redemption.

The law of sacrifices was added.

You are outside of scripture now. Sacrifices were around before the written law and are endemic to humanity.
The law is the temple and sacrifices and the atonement for sin through sacrifice. There is nothing left of the law, if you remove that beating heart of the law.

Where does the scripture state that sacrifices were added.

Just like Adam was covered by sheepskin for breaking God's law. The only thing that disappeared is that part of the law to cover you from your sins, it doesn't remove God's law. Paying for the debt changed, yes we all know he paid the entire debt, doesn't mean God's universal law is gone, only the law that takes care of the debt. Again, you believe in lawlessness.

You are trying to sever sections of the law with a meat clever. That will not work. Each law is tightly interrelated with every other law. One letter fails and the law is shattered. Just one letter of the law!

Matthew 5:18
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Easy to see, not one letter shall pass from the law.

Your saying that more than one letter has passed, which is impossible. Unless ALL is accomplished.

Andre_b · May 27, 2020

klutedavid said:
There has always been sin and disobedience, whether the law exists or not. Leopards don't change their spots. The arrival of the law changed nothing in human nature. With or without the law people sin profusely. I don't know where you got the idea that law turns sinners into saints?Thank you for admitting that you are a lawbreaker like the rest of us. No one rides the high horse around here folks. At least your starting to confess that you are a lawbreaker and not obedient to the law. Finally some honesty.I claim that all have fallen into sin and the flesh breaks the law everyday without fail. The flesh is unstoppable in it's disobedience and self righteousness. The flesh loves sin and breaking the law.

I do indeed claim that all people are lawless down to their very bone. Only the most evil creature could crucify their creator! The magnitude of that crime gives you a horrifying insight into our sinful nature. Utterly evil and beyond redemption.You are outside of scripture now. Sacrifices were around before the written law and are endemic to humanity.
The law is the temple and sacrifices and the atonement for sin through sacrifice. There is nothing left of the law, if you remove that beating heart of the law.

Where does the scripture state that sacrifices were added.
You are trying to sever sections of the law with a meat clever. That will not work. Each law is tightly interrelated with every other law. One letter fails and the law is shattered. Just one letter of the law!

Matthew 5:18
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Easy to see, not one letter shall pass from the law.

Your saying that more than one letter has passed, which is impossible. Unless ALL is accomplished.

So all has been accomplished?

You said sin existed without the law. How can you sin without a law?

klutedavid · May 27, 2020

Andre_b said:
So all has been accomplished?

Of course it has, Jesus fulfilled everything the law and the prophets requested.

An absolute fulfillment of every moral law that ever existed.

Only Jesus fully obeyed the law and beyond the letter of the law.

Only Jesus met the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets.

The law was there to condemn you and that it did.

The law was the perfect shadow preceding the Christ.

The law demanded a perfect person to match it's demands.

You might say; well the prophecy regarding the end of the world has not happened. We are not talking about the end of the world. We are discussing the fulfillment of the law.

Accomplished means that Jesus fulfilled all that the law required. The perfect moral life and the perfect sacrifice.

Andre_b · May 27, 2020

klutedavid said:
Where does the scripture state that sacrifices were added.
.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions...

1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

So Galatians 3:19 it says what is the purpose of the law? Answer: It was added because of of breaking the law (transgressions of an existing law). So a law was added because another law already existed and was being broken.

I'm curious to see how you'll twist this scripture.

BABerean2 · May 27, 2020

BobRyan said:
Gal 4 condemns pagan days but does not condemn the Bible , nor scripture, nor Bible holy days

What you are saying is not in the text of Galatians 4:24-31.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

.

klutedavid · May 27, 2020

Andre_b said:
Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions...

1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

So Galatians 3:19 it says what is the purpose of the law? Answer: It was added because of of breaking the law (transgressions of an existing law). So a law was added because another law already existed and was being broken.

I'm curious to see how you'll twist this scripture.

Curious about what, twisting the scripture?

Where in those passages does it mention 'sacrificial law'?

All I see is the phrase, 'the law', in those quotations. And no amount of wand waving, will make that phrase mean anything, other than the written law.

Your the one applying an interpretation (twisting) to those verses, not me. Where it says, 'the law', unfortunately for you, it means what it says. Here is a fuller quotation.

Galatians 3:19
Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

How long will the law last? Until the seed (Jesus) arrives to whom the promise had been made. Please note: that verse does not say sacrificial law!

HARK! · May 27, 2020

klutedavid said:
I somehow don't think that circumcision will make your heart, overflow with love for others.

I wasn't aware that was the purpose of circumcision. Do you have any scripture to support this?

klutedavid said:
Nor do I believe that the written law will grant a person, the necessary righteousness to enter heaven.

Obedience to the law is righteousness by definition:

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

klutedavid said:
The law trips you over so that when you look up. You see His Majesty bending down to pick you up. That is the sole purpose of the law, to break down your lofty self opinion.

Can you support this with scripture? My Bible says otherwise.

klutedavid · May 27, 2020

HARK! said:
I wasn't aware that was the purpose of circumcision. Do you have any scripture to support this?

Yes Sir, circumcision is the law. Abraham and all his descendants were circumcised. It's also in the law of Moses.

Obedience to the law is righteousness by definition:

But nobody obeyed the law of Moses, therefore, no one is righteous.

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin

I hope your not claiming that someone can be free of sin?

Will you confess that you do not sin?

Romans 3:9-10
...we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, there is none righteous, not even one.

Not one person is righteous.

BobRyan · May 27, 2020

I said

BobRyan said:
BABerean2 said:

Why do you ignore Paul in Galatians 4:24-31,
.

Click to expand...

I try to never ignore Paul -- not even in Gal 4.. so I have an entire thread on that topic - starts out like this..

BobRyan said:

Some have supposed that Galatians is in some way condemning -- those who follow holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths, are choosing a religion that is weak and ineffectual

So then to help with that point we might look for a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- having such an actual quote would be very helpful to make that claim... but we don't have one.

even if someone where to say " Galatians 4:9-10 is a good indication " of a statement where Paul is condemning Bible approved "holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths,..." - that statement would be about an "indication" (an inference by the reader) and not an actual quote from Paul saying such a thing.

It would not meet the criteria for an "actual quote" with that statement "actually in it" from Galatians -- rather it would merely "indication" instead of quote. T

That some of us may "take it as an indication" of something means we would be "inferring it" and not the evidence that we actually "found a quote" with those words in it.

So then --
Gal 4:9-10 is a great example of a quote that does not mention Sabbath or Passover at all.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

By contrast in Rom 14 - Paul condemns anyone who dares to look down upon someone who observes one of the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Rom 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord

others may claim that "Titus, a Gentile not being compelled to be circumcised is another example of an indication."

But we all know that Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in OT or NT "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" - not the command that "everyone must join the nation of Israel" thus in Acts 13 we find "almost the whole city" gathered for worship on Sabbath.

=======================

New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34 "this is the NEW Covenant - I will write My LAW on their heart and mind... and remember their sins no more". So that's the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9

Old Covenant condition - Gal 3 "obey and live" -- just as we saw in the case of Adam and Eve before the fall. Sinless beings could do it ... sinful beings need the gospel.

Sinai in Gal 4 is a "symbol" a "type" where law that says "do not take God's name in vain" is external on stone but not on the new heart created by the New Covenant. A symbol of the lost condition.

Moses and Elijah lived at or after Sinai - and BOTH are with Christ in glory - before the cross in Matthew 17... saved by grace through faith under the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Click to expand...

I titled it -- with Gal 4 in the title because I know there are some folks pretty interested in Gal 4..

Title: Gal 4 condemns pagan days but does not condemn the Bible , nor scripture, nor Bible holy days

BABerean2 said:

Is there another "bondwoman", the "prophetess", Ellen G. White?

Click to expand...

you appear to imagine that Ellen White lived in the OT or that the texts I quote from Gal 4 were written by Ellen White... if so ... then you would be mistaken on both counts.

Where I point out -

Gal 4:9-10 is a great example of a quote that does not mention Sabbath or Passover at all.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God (pagans), you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

By contrast in Rom 14 - Paul condemns anyone who dares to look down upon someone who observes one of the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

BABerean2 said:
What you are saying is not in the text of Galatians 4:24-31.

a great many texts in Gal 4 are not in vs 24-31

BABerean2 said:
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

as already noted...

New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34 "this is the NEW Covenant - I will write My LAW on their heart and mind... and remember their sins no more". So that's the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9

Old Covenant condition - Gal 3 "obey and live" -- just as we saw in the case of Adam and Eve before the fall. Sinless beings could do it ... sinful beings need the gospel.

Sinai in Gal 4 is a "symbol" a "type" where law that says "do not take God's name in vain" is external on stone but not on the new heart created by the New Covenant. A symbol of the lost condition.

Moses and Elijah lived at or after Sinai - and BOTH are with Christ in glory - before the cross in Matthew 17... saved by grace through faith under the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

BobRyan · May 27, 2020

klutedavid said:
One of the factors that distinguished the Pharisees from other groups prior to the destruction of the Temple was their belief that all Jews had to observe the purity laws (which applied to the Temple service) outside the Temple. The major difference, however, was the continued adherence of the Pharisees to the laws and traditions of the Jewish people in the face of assimilation. As Josephus noted, the Pharisees were considered the most expert and accurate expositors of Jewish law. (Pharisee, wikipedia)

But not very accurate according to Christ's evaluation of them and Paul's evaluation of them.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

To re-imagine that summation by Christ as being something along the lines of -- Pharisees are the "most expert and accurate expositors" of the law -- one must go outside of scripture.

klutedavid said:
I disagree strongly.

Well... I am going with Christ's summation on this one.

klutedavid said:
Yes Bob, the Pharisees over wrote some commandments. They also added unbearable laws

True and Christ said "and you do many things such as that.”

That pretty much sums it up. They were law breakers. editing, downsizing and ignore the law when it suited their preferences.

klutedavid said:
The Pharisees did not obey the law themselves either.

Christ and Paul would agree with your statement on that one.

Romans 8 comes to mind.
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

klutedavid said:
Hello Bob.
Your quotation from Romans 8 does not mention the ten commandments directly.

Romans 7 does that.
Romans 13 does that
Eph 6:1-2 says the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise in that unit of Ten - still applicable to all mankind.

BobRyan · May 27, 2020

BobRyan said:
Law does not 'forgive sin' it does not "save the sinner" not even the command "do not take God's name in vain" can save the lost or forgive their sin..
I think we all knew that.

and we all knew that even in the NT "the first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of TEN - is the 5th commandment ... Eph 6"1-2

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 where the first commandment with a promise - is the 5th.

klutedavid said:
We know the law is invalid.
.

For Christians the "Law is written on heart and mind" under the New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34
For Christians "our faith ESTABLISHes the LAW" Rom 3:31
For Christians "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
that unit of LAW where the "first commandment with a promise" is the 5th -- Eph 6:1-2

But there is a group that "does not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" according to Paul in Romans 8

Rom 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Andre_b · May 27, 2020

klutedavid said:
Of course it has, Jesus fulfilled everything the law and the prophets requested.

An absolute fulfillment of every moral law that ever existed.

Only Jesus fully obeyed the law and beyond the letter of the law.

Only Jesus met the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets.

The law was there to condemn you and that it did.

The law was the perfect shadow preceding the Christ.

The law demanded a perfect person to match it's demands.

You might say; well the prophecy regarding the end of the world has not happened. We are not talking about the end of the world. We are discussing the fulfillment of the law.

Accomplished means that Jesus fulfilled all that the law required. The perfect moral life and the perfect sacrifice.

So why aren't we in heaven then? He fulfilled yes. He made it more full, never says he abolished it, he completely it sure. Simply accomplished the requirements part of the debt to pay for sins, sins as in break god's first laws, second law was the debt needed to pay for the first law broken, which existed since the beginning, if it didn't then you claim that God isn't the same and changes his laws that determine what sin is.

Andre_b · May 27, 2020

klutedavid said:
Curious about what, twisting the scripture?

Where in those passages does it mention 'sacrificial law'?

All I see is the phrase, 'the law', in those quotations. And no amount of wand waving, will make that phrase mean anything, other than the written law.

Your the one applying an interpretation (twisting) to those verses, not me. Where it says, 'the law', unfortunately for you, it means what it says. Here is a fuller quotation.

Galatians 3:19
Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

How long will the law last? Until the seed (Jesus) arrives to whom the promise had been made. Please note: that verse does not say sacrificial law!

Exactly proves my point, you didn't answer the question, the law was added like I responded to your previous post and you said that no law was ever "added".

What is transgressions? Because this is the reason why the "law" was added 430 after Abraham in the previous verses. What are transgressions, I quoted from the context, you ignored the part about transgressions and ignored the fact that I answered your previous post of a law being added.

Aussie Pete · May 27, 2020

Cbowles said:
What if God through the longsuffering of His wrath, taught men and women His law circumsissing their hearts. Don't you understand God is writing His law upon your heart. Has nothing to do with redemption, but to be a person who pleases God.

Law tells people what to do or more, what not to do. It does not lift a finger to help. God is vastly bigger than His laws. He leads me moment by moment, not by me going to the Bible and saying what do I do right now. I do not set out to violate God's laws. But I depend on the Life of Christ within me to lead me, guide me and empower me. His leading will never violate His own nature, of course.

Aussie Pete · May 27, 2020

Andre_b said:
So why aren't we in heaven then? He fulfilled yes. He made it more full, never says he abolished it, he completely it sure. Simply accomplished the requirements part of the debt to pay for sins, sins as in break god's first laws, second law was the debt needed to pay for the first law broken, which existed since the beginning, if it didn't then you claim that God isn't the same and changes his laws that determine what sin is.

We are in heaven if we are born again. Ephesians 2:6

Broken Fence · May 27, 2020

Proverbs 6:16-19 is what got me.

Andre_b · May 27, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
We are in heaven if we are born again. Ephesians 2:6

Wow you're in heaven right now? So why do you suffer diseases and still sin? God said no sin exists in heaven. Quoting out of context and take something symbolic/spiritual and making it literal.

Aussie Pete · May 27, 2020

Andre_b said:
Wow you're in heaven right now? So why do you suffer diseases and still sin? God said no sin exists in heaven. Quoting out of context and take something symbolic/spiritual and making it literal.

It's the spirit that is in heaven. It's not at all symbolic. The spirit does not sin. I'm speaking of the human, born again spirit of course. Many Christians seem ignorant of the fact that humanity is fundamentally spiritual. If we really knew what it meant to be born again, many of our problems would evaporate.

The Sabbath of the TEN Commandments - for all mankind (V2)

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

שמע

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God with us!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads