Engaging Fellow Christians with Grace and Truth

Duke of Stratford · May 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
What's most important when interpreting what someone says (or what they've written) is the spirit behind their words. Another way of saying this is to discern the motivation. Why are they saying what they say? When I read posts here (or when I read anything) that's what I'm trying to discern. This can be tricky because people often use words which convey subtle meaning beyond the actual words themselves

You're absolutely correct. I endeavor to do the same thing. Part of this is understanding context. I've read a lot more from this blog, and that context is part of what informs me that what you have gotten out of Park's work is not what is being expressed.

Of course, I can see how such a reading can be gleaned from the blog post, per your analysis. Textual analysis is the foundation of my career path--I understand perfectly well how different people can get different messages from a piece of text. Sometimes things aren't necessarily expressed clearly on the part of the author. That happens. Moreover, if we disagree on what is being said, that's fine. We disagree. But I'd like to expand upon what I believe is the actual message being expressed.

One more thing I'd like to make clear: I don't agree with everything Park says. If we ever find ourselves completely agreeing with everything a fellow human being says, we're in trouble. I'm just clarifying my discernment of the article, which is different from your own.

You interpret this passage:

Jesus told the Laodiceans that they were lukewarm (a word only used once here in the Bible) — but he’s actually rebuking these rich, complacent, luxury-dependent elitists who were doing things routine, checking off a list, maintaining a dead religion, which is exactly what will happen to people if you yell at them.

as meaning the following:

John Helpher said:
He's making a strong case for the luke-warm concept just being a technicality. He's downplaying the significance of the concept itself. Jesus talked about people being destroyed by a mighty storm, and J.S. Park is concerned about being yelled at for what really is a legitimate problem.

It's easy to say that luke-warmness is a real problem. We know that's the right thing to say. But in practice J.S. Park makes it sound like, even if the person is being luke-warm, it's still wrong to tell them so because it might hurt their feelings. Yes, he presents it as "yelling" but the spirit behind this emphasis is that any reference to a person actually being luke-warm equates to yelling at them, even if you say it in a calm, yet firm, manner.

That is not what is being said. "Yelling" is referring not to correction, but to a certain form of correction, as I said in my previous response. In various other posts he's made, Park frequently expresses deep value for correction, including praise for Francis Chan's "Lukewarm and Loving It" sermon, which is absolutely not coddling or pacifying whatsoever. So, what is actually being condemned here?

I've seen lots of people's replies to questions about lukewarmness in Christians being along the lines of "do more" and "be better" and basically telling them to do more works. That is what is being discussed here. "Yelling" is referring to responses that are condemning and works-based, which will lead to the aforementioned "checking off a list, maintaining a dead religion." What's being said is that people are sometimes pressured into performative behavior to avoid being lukewarm. Not righteous discipline, but a constant fear of not doing enough that just leads to legalism. I agree that Park's phrasing is a bit unclear in this section, but this is the spirit behind what he's saying. I can see how the language used can lead you to believe he's downplaying lukewarmness, but that's not the spirit of what he's saying. He's referring to a specific response that does nothing to resolve a genuine problem.

John Helpher said:
He says...

This is probably the most disgusting part of the whole article, because Jesus really did say go into all the world preaching the gospel. But, J.S. Park makes it sound like these people are just self-righteous "super-Christians" whose only goal is to make him feel bad about his lack of willingness to obey Jesus. "How dare these obedient Christians who study their bibles and practice the great commission show up our unwillingness to obey Jesus! Their testimony amounts to yelling at me that I am indeed lazy and fearful and I do not like it!"

No, obedience to Jesus does not make anyone super. It just makes them faithful. Luke-warm people who hide in the shadows of a pretense at faith, will understandably gnash their teeth at those who shine genuine light.

He goes on to further belittle obedience by suggesting that any attempt to obey Jesus is little more than a "boldness contest" and that instead of trying harder for Jesus, we should "simply know Jesus for who he is" as though "who Jesus is" is quite separate from obedience to his teachings.

He hammers this point even further by suggesting calls to stop being luke-wark and to obey Jesus equates to "coercion of guilt".

Absolutely not what is being said. You're taking this completely out of context. He's referring to something he outlines earlier:

Often I end up feeling like I’m clawing for the threshold of some invisible spiritual success and that God is a parole officer and I’m bleeding towards victory, lest a terrible fate awaits me in the darkness of failure.

He's referring to the idea that lukewarm means not doing enough. The constant fear of not performing effectively. The "super-Christians" thing isn't at all meant to condemn the people who go on mission trips and read their Bibles more often than other people. Gracious, no. It's referring to the inferiority complex that you can get when you look at someone else. The idea that not being lukewarm means you have to go and do all those things like the other people do. There are people who are anxious, who are insecure, who see people doing great things and don't feel inspired--they feel guilt and shame and condemnation because they aren't those people. And they try to catch up to the standard not because they are inspired to do better, but because they feel guilty. They get legalistic with themselves because they think they're lukewarm if they're not doing things. Lukewarmness is a heart issue.

You've ignored what he says directly after that statement. Highlights are mine.

I understand the desire to be totally passionate about God. We look at other Super-Christians who highlight their Bibles and go to Guatemala and think they get it, and we feel like we’re wasting away as second-class citizens who haven’t yet been inflamed with the Gospel. I understand that battling sin takes all that we have, that fighting for our marriages and our churches takes both hands, that prayer requires a dropping to the knees.

But I just don’t think that yelling “lukewarm” does anything except swat people back to the floor. It’s a short-term threat of condemnation disguised as conviction.

It’s so easy to get guilt-tripped, too, because we cycle our lives on reward-and-punishment. We measure our walk on activity and productivity and do-ism and increase. Certainly there is room for effort, striving, and pushing yourself — none of that is legalism — but if all our spiritual angst is motivated by the fear of not making it, then we’re not making it anyway.

The point being made is:

When people just say you're lukewarm without pointing you to Christ, it leads to fear, guilt, and legalism. It leads to people not trying to obey because they want to obey Jesus' teachings, but because they're afraid of not meeting the standard. And when they operate out of a place of fear, they're not really following Jesus the way we're meant to. It's not saying "it's okay to be lukewarm." It's saying, "love for Jesus is what should motivate you, not 'fear of not making it.'" That is the spirit behind what's being said.

John Helpher said:
My goodness, Dos, but you've been taken in by a con-artist.

I appreciate that you want to help me. But I haven't been "taken in by a con-artist." I think critically about what I read, and you do, as well. But I don't agree with what you've discerned. And that's fine. We can disagree. I've defended my viewpoint based on my own discernment. If you still don't see my viewpoint, if you disagree with the blog post, that's totally fine. I personally don't feel like arguing it further because, truth be told, I really don't like online debating. This has gotten to a point that makes me wary to continue.

God bless.

Swag365 · May 27, 2020

Duke of Stratford said:
There's this interesting dichotomy about the state of the church today. A lot of us are (rightly) concerned about the "fake Christians," the lukewarm, the "easy-believeism" folks. And it's a good thing; we need to teach truth alongside grace. That can be a really hard balance. There are movements going on that are seeking to combat the idea of complacency and prosperity gospel that are going on today, and it's a good thing that they exist.

But I think there's a problem there, too.

These responsive movements can be a little harsh. I understand the thought process: if people are being complacent and abusing grace and settling for a feel-good faith with no sense of discipline, then discipline is what they need. Discipline, rebuke, reality, tough love, red pill. But that often turns to dismissal, nastiness, and a sense of superiority masked as humility. It's very easy, in our correction of people, to view them as the enemy instead of our brothers and sisters. We end up being judgmental in a non-constructive way. "Are you one of those fake Christians?" And we guilt-trip people and make them feel bad instead of winning them back with love. Sometimes, in our efforts to balance truth and grace, we go too far and stop showing grace.

I've seen this bleed into how we deal with people who are struggling and doubting. We too easily can end up like Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar: accusing our brothers and sisters, urging them to seek correction instead of giving them a hand when they need it. Sometimes we do need to repent of sin when we're struggling. We often do. But we also need to let people know that it's okay to be honest about their feelings and struggles because God shows us time and time again that He has grace for those seasons.

All of this is meant well. And, again, I in no way mean to imply we shouldn't exercise rebuke or hard truth when it's needed. But I think we need to figure out how to engage with people and figure out what that specific person needs to hear. That's what Jesus did; there were times when He rebuked and times that He healed. What helps you grow in Christ may not be what your brother needs.

One of my favorite pastors puts it very well here and here.

Grace and truth means truth and grace. It's a tricky balance, and I don't expect people to do it perfectly because we're all learning and growing in Christ. But we should do the best we can to help our brothers and sisters. People are all projects, works in progress, but they're also people.

Another interesting topic. You are on a roll.

What is the Biblical warrant for one Christian rebuking another? We see that St. Paul chastised St. Peter, but Paul was an apostle himself. I would say that church leaders can rebuke, but is there a warrant for non-leaders to rebuke other non-leaders? At least to me, if I had a problem with a friend at my church, I would discuss it with him, to get his take on it. But if I really thought it was something serious that needed someone to step in and rebuke, I would probably ask my pastor about it. Because a lot of the times we do not even have the proper judgment ourselves.

If it is OK for one Christian to rebuke another generally, regardless of position of leadership, then I would probably say that the person should have made sure he has taken the log out his own eye first, then go ahead and rebuke. In my view, the main problem with the church at large today is that there is very little light. There are very few people (including myself) who are really walking the walk themselves, and setting a proper example for others to follow. It seems to me that for about 99% of professed Christians nowadays (including myself) the proper step is to clean up ourselves and strive for holiness in our own lives. Once we achieve that, then we may turn to others.

AlexDTX · May 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
the job of the Holy Spirit is to point us back to the teachings of Jesus.

So, you think I am a luke warm Christian? You know nothing about me.

It is true that the Holy Spirit points us to the teaching of Jesus, but He does more than that. He is voice of Jesus.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The only words the Holy Speaks are the Lord's. When we hear the Holy Spirit, we hear Jesus speaking to us.

But, since you insulted me by implying that I am a luke warm Christian, I have no desire to talk with you further. Thank you for your time.

Bruce Leiter · May 27, 2020

Duke of Stratford said:
There's this interesting dichotomy about the state of the church today. A lot of us are (rightly) concerned about the "fake Christians," the lukewarm, the "easy-believeism" folks. And it's a good thing; we need to teach truth alongside grace. That can be a really hard balance. There are movements going on that are seeking to combat the idea of complacency and prosperity gospel that are going on today, and it's a good thing that they exist.

But I think there's a problem there, too.

These responsive movements can be a little harsh. I understand the thought process: if people are being complacent and abusing grace and settling for a feel-good faith with no sense of discipline, then discipline is what they need. Discipline, rebuke, reality, tough love, red pill. But that often turns to dismissal, nastiness, and a sense of superiority masked as humility. It's very easy, in our correction of people, to view them as the enemy instead of our brothers and sisters. We end up being judgmental in a non-constructive way. "Are you one of those fake Christians?" And we guilt-trip people and make them feel bad instead of winning them back with love. Sometimes, in our efforts to balance truth and grace, we go too far and stop showing grace.

I've seen this bleed into how we deal with people who are struggling and doubting. We too easily can end up like Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar: accusing our brothers and sisters, urging them to seek correction instead of giving them a hand when they need it. Sometimes we do need to repent of sin when we're struggling. We often do. But we also need to let people know that it's okay to be honest about their feelings and struggles because God shows us time and time again that He has grace for those seasons.

All of this is meant well. And, again, I in no way mean to imply we shouldn't exercise rebuke or hard truth when it's needed. But I think we need to figure out how to engage with people and figure out what that specific person needs to hear. That's what Jesus did; there were times when He rebuked and times that He healed. What helps you grow in Christ may not be what your brother needs.

One of my favorite pastors puts it very well here and here.

Grace and truth means truth and grace. It's a tricky balance, and I don't expect people to do it perfectly because we're all learning and growing in Christ. But we should do the best we can to help our brothers and sisters. People are all projects, works in progress, but they're also people.

Bruce Leiter · May 27, 2020

Yes, speaking the truth in love is Paul's way of putting it in Ephesians 4. There are two aspects to our love, tender love and tough love. The challenge is to know when to do them. I think that if we are always aware that we're sinners saved by grace, we will approach people in the humility required by the Bible so that they will sense that our love is genuine. When God wants us to do tough love, we need to admit that we're sinners and make it clear that our thoughts are grounded firmly in the Bible as God's Word.

Neostarwcc · May 27, 2020

What is bad about theology and this particular topic of "teaching people the truth" is the fact that many of us attack other believers who could very well be sheep of God.

The reformed for example are attacked by many Christian's because we apparently believe in a "monstrous God that has no love and does not care about others." I know of several Calvinists who are called "members of an unsaved heretical cult" despite us believing in the exact same gospel that every true Christian believes in.

You know, that Jesus died for our sins was buried and raised from the dead on the third day them he appeared the 12 and a bunch of other people and then to Paul...etc.

Every true Christian believes in that. Every true Christian has repented of their sins and allows the Holy Spirit to sanctify them from the inside out.
Every true Christian knows that Christ is advocating us to the Father and that the Holy Spirit is working on us and sanctifying us each and everyday of our lives.

But Calvinists make the same mistake and attack Armnians for believing that one can lose their salvation. Or for other things. We all as Christian's spend too much time judging other people than just accepting each other as potential children of God and learning to love and care for one another.

True we're told to judge Christian's but it's difficult to fully make an accurate judgement on a Christian when God works at different Christian's at different rates. I'm not saying we cant make righteous judgements on Christian's who believe in licenses to sin but rather on our theologies that in the end have nothing to do with our salvation. We all bicker with each other over the tiniest of minute details when we dont realize that one day we will recognize each other in heaven. Dont you think it wont be a little awkward to see somebody in heaven that you spent a lot of time arguing with and expecting not to ge there?

You just never know who will be saved and who wont. God will probably surprise us all.

John Helpher · May 27, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Every true Christian believes in that. Every true Christian has repented of their sins and allows the Holy Spirit to sanctify them from the inside out.
Every true Christian knows that Christ is advocating us to the Father and that the Holy Spirit is working on us and sanctifying us each and everyday of our lives.

This certainly does sound nice, but it's missing the most important part; obedience to Jesus. There's plenty of people out there saying, "Lord, Lord" (and quite of few of them specializing in saying it in some very beautiful, flowery, magnificent ways, as you've done in your post) but very few people advocating plain, simple, faithful obedience.

Junia · May 28, 2020

John Helpher said:
This certainly does sound nice, but it's missing the most important part; obedience to Jesus. There's plenty of people out there saying, "Lord, Lord" (and quite of few of them specializing in saying it in some very beautiful, flowery, magnificent ways, as you've done in your post) but very few people advocating plain, simple, faithful obedience.

true. but i do think maybe the obedience bit follows on from us being saved and sanctified (it certainly did for me)? also the true Christians are th eones who do obey. the fake ones do not pbey as they have no fruit that has grow from their supposed salvation. if they were truly saved or still being saved, they would start to show some obedience? surely? or have i got it all wrong? i dont know, am still learning, i guess

John Helpher · May 28, 2020

Duke of Stratford said:
When people just say you're lukewarm without pointing you to Christ, it leads to fear, guilt, and legalism.

Fair enough. It's true that any reference to luke-warmness should be made in the context of how that person is being luke-warm and how the luke-warmness relates to the teachings of Jesus.

For example, Jesus said we should not make promises for any reason. He said we should let our yes be yes and our no be no. Pretty straight forward. However, most professing Christians argue against this teaching. They explain that what Jesus really meant was that it is okay to make promises so long as you believe you're doing so with good intentions.

Obviously, if you want to make promises, then you can do that. Ssure, you're not obeying Jesus, but neither are you pretending to be his follower; there's no confusion. Because you are a non-believer you're under no obligation to obey Jesus. That's what being cold would mean;

If you believe Jesus meant what he said and that it's important to believe him then you won't make excuses to disregard his teachings; you will believe that obedience is important. That's what being hot would mean.

It's when you mix the two; when you claim to be a follower of Jesus, but you do not actually follow him in practice that the warm and the cold mix and you get a luke-warm person.

I previously listed another example where Jesus said we should keep our fasting secret. This is another one that's pretty easy. He even says we should wash our face and anoint ourselves with oil so that no one will even suspect that we're in discomfort from the fasting. If you're hot, you will believe Jesus meant what he said. It will be important to you that you really do take him seriously. You will think carefully about why he said it and ask yourself, "Why do I tell others about my fasting? Is my motivation really as pure and innocent as I like to believe"? And, if you don't find any satisfying answer to these questions (hard to believe if you're sincere) then you will obey Jesus simply because he's the boss and he said so.

If you are cold, then you'll make excuses for why it's not really that important to keep fasting secret. If you had been there at the time when Jesus gave this teaching, you could have let him know that you have good intentions so the teaching should not need to apply to you. You could have explained to him how to re-word the teaching to make it more clear, perhaps something like, "Keep your fasting secret only if you feel tempted to boast about it; otherwise it's fine to tell anyone" instead of this confusing thing about how you'll miss out on eternal rewards when you talk about your fasting to others.

Jesus said that his teachings will judge us and that he will be ashamed of anyone who is ashamed of his teachings. You can make all the fine, flowery speeches you want about how wonderful Jesus is, but he's already made it clear that God doesn't fall for such superficial flattery. He looks at your behavior; if you're at least trying to practice Jesus' teachings then you will be right with God despite your mistakes along the way. If you argue against his teachings, if you try to explain them away or water them down, then you show that you're ashamed of them. It really is that simple.

John Helpher · May 28, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
true. but i do think maybe the obedience bit follows on from us being saved and sanctified (it certainly did for me)? also the true Christians are th eones who do obey. the fake ones do not pbey as they have no fruit that has grow from their supposed salvation. if they were truly saved or still being saved, they would start to show some obedience? surely? or have i got it all wrong? i dont know, am still learning, i guess

Hi WUIHL. This issue of trying to put salvation, grace, and works into some kind of theological order, that one must necessarily come before the other, only leads to confusion. For example, when was Peter saved? Was it when he quit his job to follow Jesus? Was it after he repented of having denied Jesus 3 times? Was it when he was led by the Holy Spirit to answer Jesus' question about Jesus being the son of God? Was it after he spoke in tongues at pentecost or had the vision from God about eating unclean animals, or after Paul rebuked him regarding his preferential treatment of the Jews or when he was martyred for Jesus?

Certainly there is no evidence that he ever said the sinners prayer or performed the correct religious ritual.

Jesus didn't teach people to figure out the exact moment when they are saved. Quite the opposite is true; he said, "Those who endure to the end will be saved". What we, the servants, need to do is to stop trying to sort out all these religious formulas and just get busy practicing the teachings of Jesus.

Sketcher · May 28, 2020

Duke of Stratford said:
There's this interesting dichotomy about the state of the church today. A lot of us are (rightly) concerned about the "fake Christians," the lukewarm, the "easy-believeism" folks. And it's a good thing; we need to teach truth alongside grace. That can be a really hard balance. There are movements going on that are seeking to combat the idea of complacency and prosperity gospel that are going on today, and it's a good thing that they exist.

But I think there's a problem there, too.

These responsive movements can be a little harsh. I understand the thought process: if people are being complacent and abusing grace and settling for a feel-good faith with no sense of discipline, then discipline is what they need. Discipline, rebuke, reality, tough love, red pill. But that often turns to dismissal, nastiness, and a sense of superiority masked as humility. It's very easy, in our correction of people, to view them as the enemy instead of our brothers and sisters. We end up being judgmental in a non-constructive way. "Are you one of those fake Christians?" And we guilt-trip people and make them feel bad instead of winning them back with love. Sometimes, in our efforts to balance truth and grace, we go too far and stop showing grace.

I've seen this bleed into how we deal with people who are struggling and doubting. We too easily can end up like Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar: accusing our brothers and sisters, urging them to seek correction instead of giving them a hand when they need it. Sometimes we do need to repent of sin when we're struggling. We often do. But we also need to let people know that it's okay to be honest about their feelings and struggles because God shows us time and time again that He has grace for those seasons.

All of this is meant well. And, again, I in no way mean to imply we shouldn't exercise rebuke or hard truth when it's needed. But I think we need to figure out how to engage with people and figure out what that specific person needs to hear. That's what Jesus did; there were times when He rebuked and times that He healed. What helps you grow in Christ may not be what your brother needs.

One of my favorite pastors puts it very well here and here.

Grace and truth means truth and grace. It's a tricky balance, and I don't expect people to do it perfectly because we're all learning and growing in Christ. But we should do the best we can to help our brothers and sisters. People are all projects, works in progress, but they're also people.

Where my experience intersects with this is that many people would rather give a answer than ask a question to better understand a person and their circumstances. This tendency can be linked with an ego issue. It feels good to believe you know everything about how God works and how people work, and to be the corrective to a situation that lacks truth. Problem is, you have to rely on assumptions when you do that, and mistaking assumptions for divine revelation is poisonous to the church. Over recent years, I have learned the power and value of the "clarifying question." It allows me to better advise and pray. Hopefully it communicates a basic level of love as well. It's rooted in the assumption that I don't know everything, which is part of the discipline of removing my ego. Ego and grace can't really coexist.

John Helpher · May 28, 2020

Sketcher said:
Where my experience intersects with this is that many people would rather give a answer than ask a question to better understand a person and their circumstances.

This is a reasonable approach. What kind of question would you ask a person to help him see his luke-warmness?

Swan7 · May 28, 2020

A lot of people don't seem to like it when I point them to Christ rather than man. Online forums is very difficult place to talk about God, especially when we don’t know each other. Assumptions are always made rather than asking a simple question. This has been my question for a long time, and not just in forums, but also in person.

The Bible doesn't teach us to work against the Body of Christ, quite the opposite.

Bruce Leiter · May 28, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
What is bad about theology and this particular topic of "teaching people the truth" is the fact that many of us attack other believers who could very well be sheep of God.

The reformed for example are attacked by many Christian's because we apparently believe in a "monstrous God that has no love and does not care about others." I know of several Calvinists who are called "members of an unsaved heretical cult" despite us believing in the exact same gospel that every true Christian believes in.

You know, that Jesus died for our sins was buried and raised from the dead on the third day them he appeared the 12 and a bunch of other people and then to Paul...etc.

Every true Christian believes in that. Every true Christian has repented of their sins and allows the Holy Spirit to sanctify them from the inside out.
Every true Christian knows that Christ is advocating us to the Father and that the Holy Spirit is working on us and sanctifying us each and everyday of our lives.

But Calvinists make the same mistake and attack Armnians for believing that one can lose their salvation. Or for other things. We all as Christian's spend too much time judging other people than just accepting each other as potential children of God and learning to love and care for one another.

True we're told to judge Christian's but it's difficult to fully make an accurate judgement on a Christian when God works at different Christian's at different rates. I'm not saying we cant make righteous judgements on Christian's who believe in licenses to sin but rather on our theologies that in the end have nothing to do with our salvation. We all bicker with each other over the tiniest of minute details when we dont realize that one day we will recognize each other in heaven. Dont you think it wont be a little awkward to see somebody in heaven that you spent a lot of time arguing with and expecting not to ge there?

You just never know who will be saved and who wont. God will probably surprise us all.

Amen and amen!

Sketcher · May 28, 2020

John Helpher said:
This is a reasonable approach. What kind of question would you ask a person to help him see his luke-warmness?

Depends on the circumstances. Which is important, because I would be helping someone deal with a very personal issue. I therefore need to make my questions, and my answer personal.

John Helpher · May 28, 2020

Sketcher said:
Depends on the circumstances. Which is important, because I would be helping someone deal with a very personal issue. I therefore need to make my questions, and my answer personal.

Okay how about a hypothetical, in the spirit of Duke of Stratford's earlier comment that any attempt to enlighten a brother/sister regarding lukewarmness should be done in relation to the teachings of Jesus.

There's a brother named Tom who enjoys collecting model cars of all kinds; sports cars, old timey, concept cars etc... Over the course of a decade or so he's spent thousands on this hobby, with hundreds of them in glass cabinets on display scattered throughout his living room. It's a dear passion of his.

However, you know that Jesus said we should not store up treasures on Earth. Perhaps Tom has simply never heard this teaching from Jesus, or at least never heard it in a way which indicates he's responsible for applying it in his own life.

How would you go about encouraging this brother to let go of the treasure he's storing up?

Sketcher · May 28, 2020

John Helpher said:
Okay how about a hypothetical, in the spirit of Duke of Stratford's earlier comment that any attempt to enlighten a brother/sister regarding lukewarmness should be done in relation to the teachings of Jesus.

There's a brother named Tom who enjoys collecting model cars of all kinds; sports cars, old timey, concept cars etc... Over the course of a decade or so he's spent thousands on this hobby, with hundreds of them in glass cabinets on display scattered throughout his living room. It's a dear passion of his.

However, you know that Jesus said we should not store up treasures on Earth. Perhaps Tom has simply never heard this teaching from Jesus, or at least never heard it in a way which indicates he's responsible for applying it in his own life.

How would you go about encouraging this brother to let go of the treasure he's storing up?

Is Tom asking if he should have his collection in this forum? Or is he having me over for a drink and a chat? If it's the latter, do we go to the same church, which would allow me to reference a sermon that he would have heard that touched on the matter? Is he new to the church or to the area, and looking to get connected, in which case I can explain that we have regular service days in which we help the less fortunate through the church, which would in turn allow me to gauge his receptiveness to that idea and also use that to get the wheels turning in his head? The more I know what I have to work with, the better I can bring the point to bear, if I am led to do so.

John Helpher · May 29, 2020

Sketcher said:
Is Tom asking if he should have his collection in this forum? Or is he having me over for a drink and a chat? If it's the latter, do we go to the same church, which would allow me to reference a sermon that he would have heard that touched on the matter? Is he new to the church or to the area, and looking to get connected, in which case I can explain that we have regular service days in which we help the less fortunate through the church, which would in turn allow me to gauge his receptiveness to that idea and also use that to get the wheels turning in his head? The more I know what I have to work with, the better I can bring the point to bear, if I am led to do so.

Hey Sketcher. Thanks for taking an interest in the hypothetical. Tom is a 51 year old widower. His one child is grown and lives in a different state. Tom goes to the same church as you but you don't know him well, though your experience of him is that he's generally friendly, open to chit-chat, and ready to engage with other church members who approach him. You know about his model car collection because he sponsored a church bar-b-que at his house which you and 15-20 other church members attended. The food was tasty and everyone had a good time. While there you noticed the collection.

This triggered a memory you had of some visiting missionaries to your church a couple months ago, in which they told a story about the struggles they faced in Africa with lost and stolen property and their journey toward accepting that when Jesus said "do not store up treasures on Earth" he knew what he was talking about. At the time you, Bob, and presumably every other church member in attendance interpreted this recounting as a personal anecdote meant only for the missionary couple and not for all Christians.

However, seeing Tom's collection in their pristine glass cases and hearing the way he doted on and on about how long it took him to collect and how much time, attention, and finances he sunk into the hobby, you were reminded of that missionary couple and their comments about Jesus' admonishment regarding treasures on Earth.

You've been seriously thinking about the clutter in your own life and finding ways to not only sell and/or discard the treasures you already have, but to buy and live on less. You're making good progress in this area and the practice of this teaching has opened your eyes in a new way regarding materialism and our relationship to it. You feel it's been laid on your heart to approach Tom about his attachment to the treasure he's accumulated here on Earth.

How would you go about it?

Junia · May 29, 2020

John Helpher said:
Hi WUIHL. This issue of trying to put salvation, grace, and works into some kind of theological order, that one must necessarily come before the other, only leads to confusion. For example, when was Peter saved? Was it when he quit his job to follow Jesus? Was it after he repented of having denied Jesus 3 times? Was it when he was led by the Holy Spirit to answer Jesus' question about Jesus being the son of God? Was it after he spoke in tongues at pentecost or had the vision from God about eating unclean animals, or after Paul rebuked him regarding his preferential treatment of the Jews or when he was martyred for Jesus?

Certainly there is no evidence that he ever said the sinners prayer or performed the correct religious ritual.

Jesus didn't teach people to figure out the exact moment when they are saved. Quite the opposite is true; he said, "Those who endure to the end will be saved". What we, the servants, need to do is to stop trying to sort out all these religious formulas and just get busy practicing the teachings of Jesus.

true. i agree with you there

Junia · May 29, 2020

John Helpher said:
Hey Sketcher. Thanks for taking an interest in the hypothetical. Tom is a 51 year old widower. His one child is grown and lives in a different state. Tom goes to the same church as you but you don't know him well, though your experience of him is that he's generally friendly, open to chit-chat, and ready to engage with other church members who approach him. You know about his model car collection because he sponsored a church bar-b-que at his house which you and 15-20 other church members attended. The food was tasty and everyone had a good time. While there you noticed the collection.

This triggered a memory you had of some visiting missionaries to your church a couple months ago, in which they told a story about the struggles they faced in Africa with lost and stolen property and their journey toward accepting that when Jesus said "do not store up treasures on Earth" he knew what he was talking about. At the time you, Bob, and presumably every other church member in attendance interpreted this recounting as a personal anecdote meant only for the missionary couple and not for all Christians.

However, seeing Tom's collection in their pristine glass cases and hearing the way he doted on and on about how long it took him to collect and how much time, attention, and finances he sunk into the hobby, you were reminded of that missionary couple and their comments about Jesus' admonishment regarding treasures on Earth.

You've been seriously thinking about the clutter in your own life and finding ways to not only sell and/or discard the treasures you already have, but to buy and live on less. You're making good progress in this area and the practice of this teaching has opened your eyes in a new way regarding materialism and our relationship to it. You feel it's been laid on your heart to approach Tom about his attachment to the treasure he's accumulated here on Earth.

How would you go about it?

Interesting. for me this would be a hypothetical scenario. i would have to imagine what it is liek to be rich and have excess. i suppose if i were in that position i would ask God if he wants me to get rid of anything and if so what and where/how to seel it or gift it? i do that with any money i have left over after blls etc. or nay excess junk i have round my house. often God will tell me. i just have to ask

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A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

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John 3:16

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A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

Born Imperishable

John 3:16

Born Imperishable

John 3:16

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