THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

Saint Steven said:

I am agreeing with Jesus about the immortality of the soul. Remember what I said about physical and spiritual life and death? Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob are dead physically but alive spiritually. That is why Jesus said they are alive.

Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

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Do you believe the passages that say Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead are wrong?

You keep ignoring anything that doesn't agree with you. Again, the passage is referring to the Resurrection. Jesus stated plainly,

And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. (Mk. 12:26-27 KJV)

The passage is about the Resurrection.

Your not agreeing with Jesus because the Bible doesn't teach the immortality of the soul. Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Paul said that Jesus will show the only one who has immortality. The one who dwells in light that no man can approach. The one whom no man has seen nor can see. That is the Father. He is the only one who has immortality. So, the immortal soul doctrine is just another error that people believe.

If man was immortal why did God promise him eternal life? That wouldn't make much sense would it? Why promise eternal life to someone who already has eternal life?

ClementofA said:

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ClementofA said:

If it's nonsense you should have followed that up by providing evidence supporting your claim instead of asking me questions....

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I didn't even read the rest of this. I don't need to follow up anything. What you believe is irrelevant, unless you can support it with scripture which is not out-of-context, thus what you say is irrelevant as I showed by the vss. I quoted which you didn't even read.
You quoted Eccl. 9 out-of-context trying to make it support UR.
As I said what you believe is irrelevant. What did the Israelite and gentiles readers who first read/heard Eccles. understand and believe?
Is there one verse, 2 or more would be better, in which God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, says unequivocally that all mankind will be saved righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.
What Paul et al. said from which UR-ites infer UR don't count much if they are not specifically supported by the words of God or Jesus.

Saint Steven said:

We are our soul. (conscious mind) Like the information on a computer hard drive. The physical hard drive is our brain. I asked earlier, if you had a brain transplant, who would you be? The mind (soul) determines who we are. The soul is our individual identity. IMHO

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And according to Genesis the "soul" consists of two things, the body and the breath of life from God. The breath of life is something of God. It's not man. That only leaves the body that is man. The man, infused with the breath of life, is a living soul. The soul and the body cannot be separated as the body is part of the living soul.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

The mind is just the brain with the breath of life in it. Man can only understand because the breath of life gives him that ability.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

Both of the highlighted words, spirit, and breath, mean wind or breath. The word breath in this passage is the Hebrew word neshamah. The passage says the neshamah of the Almighty gives him understanding. What is the neshamah of the Lord?

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1(Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Here Moses recorded that God breathed into the man's nostrils, the Neshamah of life. It's the neshamah of the Almighty that gives life. It gives the ability to do anything that a person does. Without the neshamah of life man is nothing but the dust of the earth. The neshamah of the Almighty is the breath or spirit that is in man. It's not man, it's God. If God retrieves it the soul will cease to exist and the man, the body, will return to the dust.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;1
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

If He should gather His ruach and His neshamah; all flesh shall perish together.

Butch5 said:

How does one proclaim freedom to those who are physically dead?

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By the Spirit of the living God of course, the one that giveth life aionion in pleromatic hyper-abundant megathos. Death is swallowed up in victory, consumed by the unquenchable baptismal divine fire. Anakainosis for the polus and the panta of leaping deer.

bbbbbbb said:

I did not baptize any of you except Crispus

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Baptised with fire, was he?

Der Alte said:

I didn't even read the rest of this. I don't need to follow up anything. What you believe is irrelevant, unless you can support it with scripture which is not out-of-context, thus what you say is irrelevant as I showed by the vss. I quoted which you didn't even read.

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What makes you think - wrongly - that i didn't read the verses you quoted?

Der Alte said:

You quoted Eccl. 9 out-of-context trying to make it support UR.

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Really? Where? What post number? I think you're confused.

Der Alte said:

As I said what you believe is irrelevant. What did the Israelite and gentiles readers who first read/heard Eccles. understand and believe?

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Here's a question for you:

What did the Israelite and gentiles readers who first read/heard Eccles. understand and believe?

Der Alte said:

Is there one verse, 2 or more would be better, in which God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, says unequivocally that all mankind will be saved righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.

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I'm still waiting for one from you that says anyone will never be saved.

Der Alte said:

What Paul et al. said from which UR-ites infer UR don't count much if they are not specifically supported by the words of God or Jesus.

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Why is that? You don't believe half of the NT books (those by Paul) are inspired?

"Wills is correct that I believe that the later, fully-developed Christian concept of hell as a place of perpetual conscious torment to which countless souls are irrevocably damned is absent from the New Testament (which is not to say that various images of damnation are not present, a few of which can be read as being consonant with the later view). The problem is that almost none of the items on Wills’s list has any bearing on the matter at all."

"...While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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Butch5 said:

Do you believe the passages that say Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead are wrong?

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Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

There are two kinds of dead and two kinds of alive. Physical and spiritual.
The passages you refer to say that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are PHYSICALLY dead.
The passage below says they are alive.

Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Butch5 said:

You keep ignoring anything that doesn't agree with you.

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That saw cuts both ways.
In the account of the burning bush, Moses showed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are living. To God, everyone is alive.

Luke 20:37-38
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Butch5 said:

If man was immortal why did God promise him eternal life? That wouldn't make much sense would it? Why promise eternal life to someone who already has eternal life?

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I don't like the term either.
But when I used it, you knew exactly what I meant.

At human conception, an individual soul is created. A person that will live on beyond the physical realm into the afterlife. That person you believe will be raised bodily to stand before the judgment of God. If I understand you correctly.

Butch5 said:

And according to Genesis the "soul" consists of two things, the body and the breath of life from God. The breath of life is something of God. It's not man. That only leaves the body that is man. The man, infused with the breath of life, is a living soul. The soul and the body cannot be separated as the body is part of the living soul.

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That is only in reference to the first man, Adam. No one else has been created that way.
Our whole being is made up of spirit, soul and body. By claiming that the soul is the physical body, you depersonalize the human being.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Butch5 said:

And according to Genesis the "soul" consists of two things, the body and the breath of life from God. The breath of life is something of God. It's not man. That only leaves the body that is man. The man, infused with the breath of life, is a living soul. The soul and the body cannot be separated as the body is part of the living soul.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

The mind is just the brain with the breath of life in it. Man can only understand because the breath of life gives him that ability.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

Both of the highlighted words, spirit, and breath, mean wind or breath. The word breath in this passage is the Hebrew word neshamah. The passage says the neshamah of the Almighty gives him understanding. What is the neshamah of the Lord?

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1(Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Here Moses recorded that God breathed into the man's nostrils, the Neshamah of life. It's the neshamah of the Almighty that gives life. It gives the ability to do anything that a person does. Without the neshamah of life man is nothing but the dust of the earth. The neshamah of the Almighty is the breath or spirit that is in man. It's not man, it's God. If God retrieves it the soul will cease to exist and the man, the body, will return to the dust.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;1
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

If He should gather His ruach and His neshamah; all flesh shall perish together.

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Perhaps @Hillsage could straighten us out on this.
You can't use "spirit" as a blanket term. More to it than that.
(from post #103)

Shrewd Manager said:

Baptised with fire, was he?

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Nope, fortunately. The baptism of fire is the baptism of God's judgment in the Lake of Fire which burns forever and ever. Paul merely mentions that he baptized Crispus in water, similar to the baptisms of Cornelius and his household and the Philippian jailer and his household.

bbbbbbb said:

Nope, fortunately. The baptism of fire is the baptism of God's judgment in the Lake of Fire which burns forever and ever. Paul merely mentions that he baptized Crispus in water, similar to the baptisms of Cornelius and his household and the Philippian jailer and his household.

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More soggius than crispus then. Maybe he dried out. But doesn't Jesus baptise with fire and the Spirit, according to John the Baptist? I hope so, because that's what I got immersed in.

Previously posted this thread.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual
Reasons why Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.
…..The Lazarus and the rich man story could be some other type of literary device but it is not a parable. The word “parable” is from the Greek word παραβολή/parabolé which means “to lay beside.” A parable explains or clarifies something unknown by comparison with something known.
All unquestioned parables include this comparison e.g. “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field…" Matthew 13:24
Jesus introduces five of His parables as such Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Mark 4:13, Mark 13:28 and Luke 8:11. Others identify 21 of Jesus’ parables as such.
…..The story of Lazarus is not introduced or identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The story of Lazarus does not have the structure of a parable. There is no comparison between something unknown/misunderstood about the kingdom of heaven and some earthly event.
All unquestioned parables refer to real type events, something which could have or has happened in this life, not something fictitious, unreasonable or impossible. Other than Lazarus and the rich man living and dying, which happens to everybody, there is nothing about the story which is or can be compared to the kingdom of heaven.
All unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, a certain shepherd, a certain widow etc. At some time in history a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. At some time in history a widow searched for and found a lost coin, etc.
The story of Lazarus names two specific people, Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person. If Abraham was never in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying.

Shrewd Manager said:

More soggius than crispus then. Maybe he dried out. But doesn't Jesus baptise with fire and the Spirit, according to John the Baptist? I hope so, because that's what I got immersed in.

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Yes, Jesus will baptize with the fire of His judgment and He does baptize his people with His Spirit. He is both Just and the Justifier of the ungodly.

Der Alte said:

Previously posted this thread.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

Reasons why Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.
…..The Lazarus and the rich man story could be some other type of literary device but it is not a parable. The word “parable” is from the Greek word παραβολή/parabolé which means “to lay beside.” A parable explains or clarifies something unknown by comparison with something known.
All unquestioned parables include this comparison e.g. “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field…" Matthew 13:24
Jesus introduces five of His parables as such Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Mark 4:13, Mark 13:28 and Luke 8:11. Others identify 21 of Jesus’ parables as such.
…..The story of Lazarus is not introduced or identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The story of Lazarus does not have the structure of a parable. There is no comparison between something unknown/misunderstood about the kingdom of heaven and some earthly event.
All unquestioned parables refer to real type events, something which could have or has happened in this life, not something fictitious, unreasonable or impossible. Other than Lazarus and the rich man living and dying, which happens to everybody, there is nothing about the story which is or can be compared to the kingdom of heaven.
All unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, a certain shepherd, a certain widow etc. At some time in history a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. At some time in history a widow searched for and found a lost coin, etc.
The story of Lazarus names two specific people, Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person. If Abraham was never in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying.

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Thank you for the on-topic post. There ought to be no doubt that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is assuredly not a parable. It does not have any aspects of that literary form.

Saint Steven said:

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

There are two kinds of dead and two kinds of alive. Physical and spiritual.
The passages you refer to say that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are PHYSICALLY dead.
The passage below says they are alive.

Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

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You say there are two kinds of alive and two kinds of dead. The Scriptures don't. Show me the word physically is any of the passages that say they died.

This whole division of physical and spiritual death was devised to try to make the immortal soul doctrine fit into the Scriptures. However, it doesn't fit. As I pointed out Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality. That means that man doesn't. Thus, no immortal soul.

Butch5 said:

You say there are two kinds of alive and two kinds of dead. The Scriptures don't. Show me the word physically is any of the passages that say they died.

This whole division of physical and spiritual death was devised to try to make the immortal soul doctrine fit into the Scriptures. However, it doesn't fit. As I pointed out Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality. That means that man doesn't. Thus, no immortal soul.

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I suggest that you study the Bible. It can hardly be clearer than

II Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Saint Steven said:

That saw cuts both ways.
In the account of the burning bush, Moses showed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are living. To God, everyone is alive.

Luke 20:37-38
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

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On the contrary. I've addressed every passage you've presented. Again, look at what you posted. In the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise. The passage is about the Resurrection. He didn't say even Moses showed that the dead live on after the body dies.

From God's perspective all live because God is the source of life. He can give life to anything He chooses to. Death is nothing to Him. However, that doesn't mean that those men are alive. As I've pointed out several times now God calls things that aren't as though they were.

You continue to argue this passage based on absolutely nothing other than your interpretation of the passage. You have no other evidence at all. Unless you can show where Scripture teaches that man can live apart from the body you have no argument.

Saint Steven said:

That is only in reference to the first man, Adam. No one else has been created that way.
Our whole being is made up of spirit, soul and body. By claiming that the soul is the physical body, you depersonalize the human being.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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You say can say that it only pertains to the first man. But again, you can't prove it. We are told plainly what a man is in that passage and what a soul is. A man, the body, and the breath of life from God together form a living soul. The words translated soul, nephesh and pshuche, are often translated life. A soul is essentially life. It's not some part of a person that lives on. Concretely, it's living being, abstractly it's life itself.