The Olivet Discourse

sovereigngrace said:

Your promotion of the validity of old covenant arrangement, including the continued animal sacrifices and priesthood is animal sacrifices, after the cross is troubling, wrong and erroneous.

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I've posted nothing about validity (or animal sacrifices).

mkgal1 said:

Matthew 24:34 ~ Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

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Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The verse above kills what you are attempting to imply, if He cast out devils during His earthly ministry.

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keras said:

Because the conditions and results of the New Covenant have yet to happen. Jeremiah 31:30-34, Hebrews 8:8-12

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How can you ignore the word "now" in the scripture found below?
When was His blood shed to bring in the New Covenant?

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

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Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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BABerean2 said:

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The verse above kills what you are attempting to imply, if He cast out devils during His earthly ministry.

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Things were more nuanced than that, I believe. Yes....the Kingdom of God (spiritually) was in their midst. But the Temple was still standing.....the priests were still attending to their duties.....the religious leaders still had political power, so there was a struggle of power (not that God was struggling - but Jesus' and His disciples teaching about something new coming and that the old would disappear caused conflict) from the time when Jesus began teaching until the destruction. The conflict was over who truly had authority. Jesus proved He did in 70 AD.

The Messianic time clock had begun when John the Baptist announced that "the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world had come".

The religious leaders seemed to believe that murdering Jesus would be the answer to their problems with Him. But as you know....death couldn't hold Him.

mkgal1 said:

Things were more nuanced than that, I believe. Yes....the Kingdom of God (spiritually) was in their midst. But the Temple was still standing.....the priests were still attending to their duties.....the religious leaders still had political power, so there was a struggle of power (not that God was struggling - but Jesus' and His disciples teaching about something new coming and that the old would disappear caused conflict) from the time when Jesus began teaching until the destruction over who truly had authority. Jesus proved He did in 70 AD.

The Messianic time clock had begun when John the Baptist announced that "the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world had come".

The religious leaders seemed to believe that murdering Jesus would be the answer to their problems with Him. But as you know....death couldn't hold Him.

John 11:48 ~ If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”​

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You are advocating humanism. This is a man-centered theology. God introduced the new covenant with Christ’s sacrifice. The continuing slaughter of innocent animals was ignorance at best and gross rebellion at worst. It was a charade. It was a religious circus. The new perfect eternal covenant had now arrived and abrogated the old. It was now dead.

What difference did it make that the blind “priests were still attending to their duties” and the wicked “religious leaders still had political power”? They were haters of Christ and totally responsible for their rejection of Christ and His death. Their system was redundant. There was now a better covenant in place. The old was replaced by the new.

Hebrews 7:11-12 tells us before AD70, “If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

Can you not see this? The priesthood was changed with Christ's coming and one final sacrifice for sin. And having been changed there was a change triggered in the law (“there is made of necessity a change also of the law”). Whilst the written law is still active, the whole old covenant ceremonial system was superseded by a new better covenant.

The Greek word for “changed” here is metatithemi which actually means transferred or exchanged. This shows that old temporal imperfect priesthood has been exchanged for the new perfect eternal priesthood in Christ. The deficient shadow and type has been replaced by Israel’s eternal high priest the Messiah and will never again be changed, undone or rivalled by a parallel priesthood. It is an eternal transfer of influence. Christ will not (or cannot) share this office with another, neither can He hand the baton over to others. He holds it firm and alone as of right and by way of an everlasting oath. Those that purport to steal this sacred title enter into the dangerous arena of heresy.

mkgal1 said:

I've posted nothing about validity (or animal sacrifices).

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So what were their purpose after the cross?

mkgal1 said:

Things were more nuanced than that, I believe. Yes....the Kingdom of God (spiritually) was in their midst. But the Temple was still standing.....the priests were still attending to their duties.....the religious leaders still had political power, so there was a struggle of power (not that God was struggling - but Jesus' and His disciples teaching about something new coming and that the old would disappear caused conflict) from the time when Jesus began teaching until the destruction over who truly had authority. Jesus proved He did in 70 AD.

The Messianic time clock had begun when John the Baptist announced that "the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world had come".

The religious leaders seemed to believe that murdering Jesus would be the answer to their problems with Him. But as you know....death couldn't hold Him.

John 11:48 ~ If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”​

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The old covenant was only a temporal conditional imperfect signpost, shadow and type of the new covenant – the substance, fulfillment and the reality. There is not one single teaching from Christ, Paul, Peter or any of the New Testament writers that remotely suggests the Old Testament land promises, offices, ordinances or traditions lasted any longer than the cross. There is no instruction on the Jews being brought back to the land.

The old covenant was merely “a shadow of good things to come” (Hebrews 10:1). Hebrews 9:24 describes them as, “figures of the true.”

The new covenant is “the very image” (Hebrews 10:1), it is “a better and an enduring substance” (Hebrews 10:34).

Hebrews 10:1-2 confirms that the ceremonial law served only as a forward pointer. It was never designed to be a backward remembrance of Christ’s perfect sacrifice on the cross, as you propose. It was merely a shadow that was aiming toward the impending arrival of the final sacrifice for sin.

sovereigngrace said:

Not so. You have zero Scripture to support that.

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Then Which Coming is this?
Matthew 21:40-45
Are we still waiting for it, or has it happened, and If you say it's is past then WHEN did it happen?
When did the Lord of the Vineyard Come and destroy the wicked Vinedresssers?

parousia70 said:

Which Coming is this?
Matthew 21:40-45
Are we still waiting for it, or has it happened, and If you say it's is past then WHEN did it happen?
When did the Lord of the Vineyard Come and destroy the wicked Vinedresssers?

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Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

There are two parts to the parable. There are the wicked husbandmen that represent apostate Judaism. There are the righteous husbandmen that represent the New Testament Church. I believe the parable symbolically links the judgment of the wicked servants to Israel’s ongoing intra-Advent judgment, including AD70.

The letting out God’s vineyard to “other husbandmen” relates to the Gospel reaching out to the nations. It is talking about the period following Christ's defeat of sin, death and Satan, which included when He appeared unto the disciples for 40 days and prepared then for their empowerment at Pentecost to fulfill the great commission.

The vineyard owner is the Father, not Jesus! The Father intervened immediately with the earthquake and the ripping of the curtain in two. This was the start of the fulfilment! The culminating judgment fulfilment will be when He banishes them to the lake of fire on judgment day.

That prediction in Matthew 21:33-41 relates to God the Father pouring out His wrath upon Christ-rejecting Israel (in vengeance on those who rejected and killed His Son) throughout the intra-Advent, right up to (and including) Christ's coming and the final judgement.

sovereigngrace said:

The vineyard owner is the Father, not Jesus!

That prediction in Matthew 21:33-41 relates to God the Father pouring out His wrath upon Christ-rejecting Israel (in vengeance on those who rejected and killed His Son) throughout the intra-Advent, right up to (and including) Christ's coming and the final judgement.

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If what you say is true, HOW did the Father COME and Destroy them? What did His Coming look like?
What evidence do you have that the father did indeed COME and destroy them?
Who saw God the Father "Come" and do that?
And Who is the Chief Corner Stone that Fell on them and Ground them to dust, and what did that look like??
Were the Chief Priests wrong in understanding that Jesus' parable spoke of THEM?

And Who is the Chief Corner Stone that Fell on them and Ground them to dust, and what did that look like??

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Jesus said in Matthew 21:42-46: “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.”

This is not merely talking about physical judgment in AD70. This is talking about the spiritual consequences of rejecting Christ. It is speaking about the eternal life that is found in Christ, and the eternal punishment that results from rejecting Him. The kingdom was being taken off natural Israel and given to the largely Gentile NT Church. The cross was the pivotal moment for all this.

1 Peter 2:5-10: “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter describes the Church as “a chosen generation” (or a chosen race) and “an holy nation.” He related this to all believers, irrespective of natural race. This shows us the spiritual nature of the Israeli designation in the New Testament.

Peter does not relate Zion to the natural Jews or to the physical nation of Israel. Quite the opposite! Zion is shown in the New Testament to embrace the Church of Jesus Christ – the elect, who are called a “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.” Like Jesus teaching in Matthew 21:42-46, this nation, which is here spoken of, is shown to be no ordinary earthly temporal carnal nation. No, but a holy spiritual eternal invisible one. It is a spiritual nation that is positional seated in heavenly places.

Christ is an offense to the wicked, but precious to those who embrace Him.

parousia70 said:

If what you say is true, HOW did the Father COME and Destroy them? What did His Coming look like?
What evidence do you have that the father did indeed COME and destroy them?
Who saw God the Father "Come" and do that?

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No man has seen the Father, but the Son.

John 1:18 records: “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Jesus said in John 5:37: “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”

Jesus testified in John 6:46: “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.”

1 John 4:12 teaches: “No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.”

We see that through the various judgments of Father throughout the OT. But many have seen Christ. When He comes again every eye shall see Him.

Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Acts 1:10 says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

sovereigngrace said:

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return. How did He go?

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

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Every Eye didn't see Him Go.

How can His return be in Like Manner?

He handed out no rewards or punishment at His ascension.

How can His return be in like manner?

parousia70 said:

Every Eye didn't see Him Go.

How can His return be in Like Manner?

He handed out no rewards or punishment at His ascension.

How can His return be in like manner?

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Please read my posts before responding. It saves me repeating myself.

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

sovereigngrace said:

You are advocating humanism

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Again.....God's grace and long-suffering is what you are calling humanism? It seems to me that it's His character to be patient and merciful. To me, that's a large part of the entire plot from Genesis to Revelation.

mkgal1 said:

Again.....God's grace and long-suffering is what you are calling humanism? It seems to me to be His character to be patient and merciful. To me, that's a large part of the entire plot from Genesis to Revelation.

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That has absolutely nothing to do with justifying the veracity and efficacy of the old covenant arrangement. God was in no way pandering to the wicked rebellious Jewish religious leaders. He gave the Jews 40 years to repent before destroying the temple, but that did not in any way legitimize their rebellious ongoing trust in the abolished ceremonial sacrifice system. The cross had rendered it all obsolete and dead.

sovereigngrace said:

How did He go?

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Acts 1:9 ~ And having said these things, they beholding, He was lifted up, and a cloud hid Him from their eyes.

sovereigngrace said:

That has absolutely nothing to do with justifying the veracity and efficacy of the old covenant arrangement. God was in no way pandering to the wicked rebellious Jewish religious leaders. He gave the Jews 40 years to repent before destroying the temple, but that did not in any way legitimize their rebellious ongoing trust in the abolished ceremonial sacrifice system. The cross had rendered it all obsolete and dead.

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I never posted anything about legitimizing their rebellion (or "pandering" to them). The Cross rendered it all obsolete - yes - but it was in the process of disappearing. These words of Jesus were not fulfilled in 30 AD. They were (incredibly so) fulfilled in 70 AD:


Proving Jesus' earlier claim:

mkgal1 said:

I never posted anything about legitimizing their rebellion (or "pandering" to them). The Cross rendered it all obsolete - yes - but it was in the process of disappearing. These words of Jesus were not fulfilled in 30 AD. They were (incredibly so) fulfilled in 70 AD:

Matthew 24:2; Mark 13:2; Luke 21:6 - Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." ... ...​

Proving Jesus' earlier claim:

Matthew 12:6 - But I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.​

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If it was obsolete and decaying during that period as the Bible says why are you defending it as being alive and active?

Hebrews 8:13: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete). Now that which decayeth (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete) and waxeth old (gerasko) is ready to vanish away.”

Even though a corpse may look asleep it is lifeless. All you have is rotting flesh. Decomposition has set in immediately. It is gradually decaying, and will ultimately vanish away. But that entity has no further earthly use. Its time is up.

There cannot be 2 covenants ongoing at the one time. That is absurd! One superseded the other. There cannot be 2 competing priesthoods. One replaced the other.

sovereigngrace said:

These is no contradiction between the inspired writers. It is your understanding of what they teach that is a contradiction.

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I am in agreement that scripture is not contradictory.

But this doesn't address that Peter stated the end of the all things was "at hand". Obviously that wasn't the physical earth.

sovereigngrace said:

Does sin continue today?

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Yes

Did Christ put away sin at the cross and is Daniel 9:26 fulfilled?

sovereigngrace said:

Does death continue today?

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Physical : Yes
Spiritual: No for the believer

sovereigngrace said:

Does crying continue today?

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Yes

Does God wipe away our tears currently or only in the future?

Are tears of Joy allowed in heaven?

sovereigngrace said:

Does pain continue today?

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Yes

Does God heal our pain?

sovereigngrace said:

Does sorrow continue today?

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Yes

Did Christ bare our sorrows and grief on the cross?

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.

Does the good news turn your sorrows to Joy?

sovereigngrace said:

Does the curse continue today?

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Which curse?

sovereigngrace said:

Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?

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No, as the ministry of death is no longer in place.

sovereigngrace said:

Do people still marry today?

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Yes, on earth.

No, in heaven.

sovereigngrace said:

When does incorruption arrive?

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When our earthly tent is destroyed

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

2 Corinthians 5:1 1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens

sovereigngrace said:

Is "the bondage of corruption" removed from the creature and creation at the moment?

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Which moment?

sovereigngrace said:

Do you believe that sin, corruption, death and Satan continue on forever?

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No.

sovereigngrace said:

The very use of “heaven and earth,” without any attached qualification, allows us to understand this as a universal event.

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Not necessarily

sovereigngrace said:

The repeated literal meaning of the two Greek words when combined together supports this conclusion

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Not in all cases.

sovereigngrace said:

This is reinforced by the fact the recipients being warned are not merely the residents of the city of Jerusalem, as Preterists argue, but a global audience. As Luke 21:35 states: “For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” This could not be clearer! Only the bias observer would (or could) argue otherwise.

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Not necessarily.

From Strong's in regards to the greek word for earth:

" a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region; simply, when it is plain from the context what land is meant, as that of the Jews: Luke 4:25; Luke 21:23;"

sovereigngrace said:

When talking about the removal of the current “heaven and earth,” the 5 major similar texts, describing regeneration of both at the coming of the Lord, use the same Greek word parerchomai indicating the ‘passing away’ of the current corrupt natural arrangement we are experiencing now and its replacement with a brand new incorrupt creation.

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It's interesting that you can believe when a person is released from the letter of the law, and born again, they are a new creation, but when the earth was released from the bondage of the law, its not new.