Did You Really Not Know That Christ Must Be Obeyed? --Yes, You!

GenemZ · May 27, 2020

Religiot said:
Brother,
Satan hates us too much, to alleviate even the slightest affliction--he's not in the business of providing anything good, not even for a while.

Satan will come as an angel of light. he can speak to you like he is a concerned friend. For example.. In the Greek he did that to Jesus in Matthew 4:3

"The tempter came to him and said,
“If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

In the Greek Satan said that in a manner like he was very concerned for Jesus in his starving state. He spoke like a friend would. Jesus saw through it. But it was the approach Satan took to try to get Jesus to restore himself to his powers of being Deity as to disqualify Jesus being a substitute for us on the Cross. For only as a man could Jesus qualify to die for all men.

Likewise... Satan will use his powers to create an illusion of doing good for men as long as it takes care of his need to keep believers away from sound teaching. That's what the Matthew 7:21-23 false teachers accomplish wholesale. They teach false doctrine flying everywhere to impress simple minded believers who get sucked in.

His only desire is to kill us, or harm us, anyway that he can, so much so, that if it wasn't for God limiting his actions in the world...

Yes. that Satan's ultimate desire. Can you trap an animal by offering it a treat? Allow it to take the treat and bring back more with him next time? Satan is no fool. He knows that things that appear like good deeds makes for great bait. It all depends on what approach is needed. He is the master deceiver and can fool anyone not desiring sound doctrine.

Satan is not limited as you make him to be. Mafia bosses have given great sums of money to charities to alleviate suffering as a means to gain favor of men. Yet, they would not hesitate to murder you if you gave them reason to. Satan does not have such a knee jerk personality as you make him to be. He can deceive by giving the appearance of doing good things at times. Obviously, it would be an effective approach in deceiving you. You would assume it could not be Satan if he tells you nice sounding things. That is why its imperative to keep on growing in sound doctrinal teachings. For without objective truth in our hearts our feelings will become as a snare.

I am not not angry with you, nor have any negative feelings for you. Its for some of the things you think as truth that I may. We all need a great deal of teachings that we have no idea even exist. In time, if God sees us as truly seeking His heart? We will find what God wants us to know to stay free.

I am the first to admit we all make mistakes. Its so easy to do. For God's ways and thoughts are not our way of thinking. Many assume that God feels and thinks the same way we do concerning certain issues. And, all the while not yet knowing the Truth needed to have our own way of thinking transformed to His.

Certain older believers may seem mature to young ones. Its because over the years the older ones learned how to make themselves comfortable with their own wrong thinking. They never sought out sound doctrine with strong desire. For they eventually assumed they were right because God feels just like they do on a matter. Show them something that reveals they believe error? They will grab onto verses without any real understanding and start tossing them at another as to chase them off with a food fight.

So be it....

Hammster · May 27, 2020

Religiot said:
Foreknowledge just means to know before, and it is an intrinsic part of omniscience: the following will show that foreknowledge is one of the ways God chooses to see things, and is the way He predestined us:

"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." Psalms 139:14-16

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." --Jeremiah 1:5

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." --1 Peter 1:1-2

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" --Romans 8:28-31

You are always so close.

The problem is that you are assuming your conclusion. Not one of these passages says anything about Him choosing based on foreseen faith.

Let’s look at each passage.

Psalm 139

Great passage on God’s Omniscience. And on His providence. But nothing about Him choosing David, or anyone, on foreseeing anything about them.

Jeremiah 1:5

God knew Jeremiah before He created him. This suggests a love God had for Jeremiah. It does not say that he was chosen because of foreseeing anything about him.

1 Peter 1

This would probably be your strongest argument. The only problem is that it never says that God chooses his elect based on foreseeing anything about them.

Romans 8:28-30

Here’s your problem with this one. Only those who are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are called. So His foreknowledge can’t have anything to do with foreseeing anything about them because the calling changes everything. Those called are justified. Let me see if I can explain further.

Let’s say that it’s faith that God sees since you are discussing the faith/works connection. Only those called are the ones who have faith, and we know that because they are justified (Romans 4). So the only faith He could foresee is the faith that comes from His calling (Romans 10). He’s not calling those who won’t have faith. That’s not in the passage. So how can He base His calling on foreseen faith when it’s the calling itself that leads to faith? He can’t.

You will need to find some other passages to support your view because these don’t work.

Dave L · May 27, 2020

Religiot said:
Are they free to get out, tho?

No. We are slaves of Christ and do only what he predestined us to do.

Religiot · May 27, 2020

Dave L said:
No. We are slaves of Christ and do only what he predestined us to do.

Actually that would make us robots of Christ.

Hammster · May 27, 2020

Religiot said:
Actually that would make us robots of Christ.

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
— Romans 6:16-18

I’m good with being a robot.

Religiot · May 27, 2020

Hammster said:
Romans 8:28-30

Here’s your problem with this one. Only those who are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are called. So His foreknowledge can’t have anything to do with foreseeing anything about them because the calling changes everything. Those called are justified. Let me see if I can explain further.

Let’s say that it’s faith that God sees since you are discussing the faith/works connection. Only those called are the ones who have faith, and we know that because they are justified (Romans 4). So the only faith He could foresee is the faith that comes from His calling (Romans 10). He’s not calling those who won’t have faith. That’s not in the passage. So how can He base His calling on foreseen faith when it’s the calling itself that leads to faith? He can’t.

I'm sorry, brother, but on this, you are just plain wrong:

"And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." --Matthew 22:1-14

"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last." --Luke 13:23-30

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." --Matthew 7:13-14

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." --Matthew 20:16

Hammster · May 27, 2020

Religiot said:
I'm sorry, brother, but on this, you are just plain wrong:

"And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." --Matthew 22:1-14

"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last." --Luke 13:23-30

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." --Matthew 7:13-14

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." --Matthew 20:16

What exactly am I wrong on?

Religiot · May 27, 2020

Hammster said:
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
— Romans 6:16-18

I’m good with being a robot.

Robots cannot obey, because they are without free will: obedience denotes choice, and robots are without it, for they are merely prescribed actions by programming, and so the actions of a robot are, in-fact, the actions of the programmer, whether they be good or bad, the programmer is the cause of all of the robots actions. Humans, on the other hand, can obey, for they are in the image of God, and thus, have free will, and are, thereby, responsible for all of their actions, once they've entered the age of accountability.

Most teachers, today, see people as just another animal, in the strictest sense, and thus argue that humans are, fundamentally, without free will.

Also, a few, but a rapidly growing number of teachers, are now teaching, that humans may in-fact be mere robots, or, mere projections in a simulated environment, simply acting out our programming, like in the movie 'The Matrix'...

My point in mentioning these, is to show that there is a pattern, a very old pattern (amongst secular philosophers, anyway), that man is not responsible for his actions, because he is without free will.

I find that this philosophy contradicts the bible, directly.

Religiot · May 27, 2020

Hammster said:
What exactly am I wrong on?

Well, I should've used the word 'that' instead of 'this', but I don't think my typo was enough to confuse what I meant, that you were wrong on what you said about the 'call' causing the 'faith'.

Hammster · May 27, 2020

Religiot said:
Robots cannot obey, because they are without free will: obedience denotes choice, and robots are without it, for they are merely prescribed actions by programming, and so the actions of a robot are, in-fact, the actions of the programmer, whether they be good or bad, the programmer is the cause of all of the robots actions. Humans, on the other hand, can obey, for they are in the image of God, and thus, have free will, and are, thereby, responsible for all of their actions, once they've entered the age of accountability.

Most teachers, today, see people as just another animal, in the strictest sense, and thus argue that humans are, fundamentally, without free will.

Also, a few, but a rapidly growing number of teachers, are now teaching, that humans may in-fact be mere robots, or, mere projections in a simulated environment, simply acting out our programming, like in the movie 'The Matrix'...

My point in mentioning these, is to show that there is a pattern, a very old pattern (amongst secular philosophers, anyway), that man is not responsible for his actions, because he is without free will.

I find that this philosophy contradicts the bible, directly.

My point was that you equated slavery and robots. The Bible says we are slaves.

Hammster · May 27, 2020

Religiot said:
Well, I should've used the word 'that' instead of 'this', but I don't think my typo was enough to confuse what I meant, that you were wrong on what you said about the 'call' causing the 'faith'.

I noticed that you didn’t address the actual text. Those who are called are justified.

bbbbbbb · May 27, 2020

Hammster said:
I noticed that you didn’t address the actual text. Those who are called are justified.

And how are they justified. It seems one answer is that they were justified according to their works which were foreknown before the foundation of the earth which cause God to elect them to salvation. Those who would not, or could not, meet God's standard of righteous deeds were also foreknown, but not elected because He knew that they would fail to meet His standards.

The fatal flaw in this argument is the idea that works of righteousness could, or would, ever justify anyone and that people are capable of living utterly sinless lives. The facts are clearly stated in Ephesians 1 and 2. All of us were dead in our transgressions and sins, but God, being rich in mercy made us alive in Christ. Hallelujah!

GenemZ · May 27, 2020

Hammster said:
You are always so close.

The problem is that you are assuming your conclusion. Not one of these passages says anything about Him choosing based on foreseen faith.

Let’s look at each passage.

Psalm 139

Great passage on God’s Omniscience. And on His providence. But nothing about Him choosing David, or anyone, on foreseeing anything about them.

Jeremiah 1:5

God knew Jeremiah before He created him. This suggests a love God had for Jeremiah. It does not say that he was chosen because of foreseeing anything about him.

1 Peter 1

This would probably be your strongest argument. The only problem is that it never says that God chooses his elect based on foreseeing anything about them.

Romans 8:28-30

Here’s your problem with this one. Only those who are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are called. So His foreknowledge can’t have anything to do with foreseeing anything about them because the calling changes everything. Those called are justified. Let me see if I can explain further.

Let’s say that it’s faith that God sees since you are discussing the faith/works connection. Only those called are the ones who have faith, and we know that because they are justified (Romans 4). So the only faith He could foresee is the faith that comes from His calling (Romans 10). He’s not calling those who won’t have faith. That’s not in the passage. So how can He base His calling on foreseen faith when it’s the calling itself that leads to faith? He can’t.

You will need to find some other passages to support your view because these don’t work.

We were chosen IN Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world. Ephesians 1:4

I ask? Where was Eve before the bone and flesh was removed from Adam's side?

The woman was IN Adam. Hidden in Adam.

We are the Bride of Christ. No?

That means we are going to be bone of His bone and flesh of His Glorious body.

We are now hid IN Him! Chosen before the foundations of the world to be His Bride.

Was Moses chosen to be the Bride? No... He is not part of the Bride. Neither were any OT saints. They were chosen for another purpose and will inherit the New Earth in Eternity. Our home is our Husband's home. Heaven!

God in His omniscience knows who would freely believe in Him. He does not make anyone to believe as our Calvinist friends try to make us believe. Its out from all He knows will believe, that He chose our purpose and functions when He was to bring us into regeneration.We were chosen before the foundations of the earth to become the Bride of Christ. Sharing in the same glorious heavenly body type. Just like the woman and Adam were of the same body substance.

God did not choose us to believe. But, rather. Chose what we are to become because He knew we would believe. God could have chosen David to be born during the Church age, thus making David destined for being the Bride of Christ. But that is not how God sovereignly chose for David,

God has predestined those whom He chose IN Christ to be born during the Church age. To become the Bride of Christ when they believed. To become bone of His bone and to have the same kind of glorious body as the Lord now is manifested in.

Balance and perspective is what we need to stabilize.

grace and peace!

Hammster · May 27, 2020

genez said:
We were chosen IN Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world. Ephesians 1:4

I ask? Where was Eve before the bone and flesh was removed from Adam's side?

The woman was IN Adam.

We are the Bride of Christ. No?

We are going to be bone of His bone and flesh of His Glorious body.

We are now IN Him! Chosen before the foundations of the world to be His Bride.

Was Moses chosen? No... He is not part of the Bride. Neither were any OT saints. They will inherit the New Earth in Eternity. Our home is our Husband's home. Heaven!

God in His omniscience knows who would freely believe in Him. Its out from all He knows will believe, that He chose our purpose and functions when He was to bring us into regeneration.

He did not choose us to believe. But, rather. Chose what we are to become because He knew we would believe. God could have chosen David to be born during the Church age, thus making David destined for being the Bride of Christ. But, God has only predestined those whom He chose IN Christ to be born during the Church age. To become the Bride of Christ. To become bone of His bone and to have the same kind of glorious body as the Lord now is manifested in.

Balance and perspective is what we need to stabilize.

grace and peace!

How does He know we will believe?

GenemZ · May 27, 2020

Hammster said:
How does He know we will believe?

He already sees you resurrected and in Heaven. Omniscience bothers us all at first.

How God made us free to believe before creating us I will need to try to explain later.
I have doctor's appointment I need to make ready for now....

bbbbbbb · May 27, 2020

Hammster said:
How does He know we will believe?

Is there anything God does not know?

Hammster · May 27, 2020

genez said:
He already sees you resurrected and in Heaven. Omniscience bothers us all at first.

How God made us free to believe before creating us I will need to try to explain later.
I have doctor's appointment I need to make ready for now....

How did we get there?

Hammster · May 27, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
Is there anything God does not know?

No. But how He knows is the issue.

bbbbbbb · May 27, 2020

Hammster said:
No. But how He knows is the issue.

I will not deny that how He knows is an interesting issue and one that has absorbed much attention from theologians for centuries, but i personally see it as a dead end which only results in various speculations.

Hammster · May 27, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
I will not deny that how He knows is an interesting issue and one that has absorbed much attention from theologians for centuries, but i personally see it as a dead end which only results in various speculations.

I disagree. But that happens.

Did You Really Not Know That Christ Must Be Obeyed? --Yes, You!

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