Submission and obedience.

a-lily-of-peace · May 26, 2020

That is true, Nabal and Abigail got different outcomes, and hers actually shows submission:

And it came to pass about ten days after, that Jehovah smote Nabal, so that he died.

And when David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, Blessed be Jehovah, that hath pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal, and hath kept back his servant from evil: and the evil-doing of Nabal hath Jehovah returned upon his own head.

And David sent and spake concerning Abigail, to take her to him to wife. And when the servants of David were come to Abigail to Carmel, they spake unto her, saying, David hath sent us unto thee, to take thee to him to wife. And she arose, and bowed herself with her face to the earth, and said, Behold, thy handmaid is a servant to wash the feet of the servants of my lord. And Abigail hasted, and arose, and rode upon an ass, with five damsels of hers that followed her; and she went after the messengers of David, and became his wife.

(1 Samuel 25:38-42, ASV)

a-lily-of-peace · May 26, 2020

But since I said this wasn’t an easy topic, this is not a husband/wife issue but relevant to the idea of being obedient to an unrighteous order:

And Naaman said, If not, yet, I pray thee, let there be given to thy servant two mules’ burden of earth; for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt-offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto Jehovah. In this thing Jehovah pardon thy servant: when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, Jehovah pardon thy servant in this thing. And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way. (2 Kings 5:17-19, ASV)

The law forbids bowing to idols, but Elisha tells this (gentile, pagan) man to go in peace after asking forgiveness for his future sins which he knows he is going to commit when he goes back to his people.

Submission to God’s will requires discernment of God’s will, and as a prophet, Elisha telling the man to go in peace speaks to the idea that God judges the hearts of people who are in bad situations when they cry out to him.

And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward: not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God; who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

(2 Corinthians 3:4-6, ASV)

lovelife34 · May 26, 2020

Thir7ySev3n said:
This was addressed above. Additionally, discipline is for those who are loved (Revelation 3:19).

Let's just be real. You can call me names if you want, but it doesn't make sense why you are so bothered with me telling you that I don't operate in relationships by isolating/alienating people. Notice how, in our exchanges, I never once insulted you or called you names. I guess you need to work on your fruits of the spirit.

Name-calling is very immature and not Christ-like, at all. I talked about narcississtic people existing in the world, I never called YOU one. I talked about those actions sounding manipulative/coercive but I never characterized YOU as those traits. But, if the shoe fits, tie those shoelaces up, and wear it!

I use verbal communication to discuss things with people. You can ignore your wife and cancel dates if you want. I don't know how much more I have to say to make you understand this. You can do whatever you want with your own wife.

Which verse does God command every husband to isolate and alienate his wife if she doesn't behave the way she wants him to? Which verse does God command husbands to cancel dates? Which verse does God command husbands to stop doing nice things for his wife?

"
Zach and Amanda (not their real names) were happily married and attending a growing church on the east coast. They started a family and got involved in ministry. Things were going well for this young Christian couple. But then Zach took a major spiritual detour.

He swallowed the Red Pill. At first Amanda noticed her husband was developing odd attitudes about women. He would talk about how "all women" are highly emotional and how they want to manipulate men. Then Zach began to play mind games with his wife: ignoring her, blaming her for everything or cutting off sexual contact for days to teach her a lesson.
Then he started demanding total submission from Amanda. He began quoting 1 Peter 3:6, which says that Sarah called her husband Abraham "lord." Meanwhile he would sometimes call his wife stupid if they argued.

"It was definitely mental and psychological abuse," Amanda says. "His love was conditional. He would say, 'You need to follow me completely, and then I will give you what you need.'"

Finally, Amanda couldn't take it anymore. She began to fear that Zach might abuse her physically. "I was constantly crying. I was miserable and depressed," she told me this week in an interview. Although Amanda is not ready to give up her marriage, and she hopes for restoration, her trust in Zach is shattered, and she has started seeing a counselor."

Hmm, sounds so familiar. I tried to find the Bible verses on canceling dates and isolation, I couldn't. Please direct me to those verses.

Traffic laws, and other laws are not made to make us feel ashamed. The reason why you don't drive on a red light is because you don't want to get killed, or kill someone else by crashing into them. It's not about making someone feel bad, it's about life and death, and safety. Laws that prevent homicide, for example, are not made to make us ashamed. It's about life and death. There are some laws that penalize people for shoplifting. It's about justice, not about shame. It's not manipulation. You don't fundamentally understand what manipulation is, that's okay.

And again, your logical leaps don't make any sense. So because I said that I communicate verbally instead of isolating/ignoring people, I don't trust God? "Relational withdrawal" is pop psychology, fyi. xD It's not in the Bible.

It's okay for people to not agree with you, it's okay for people to have dissenting opinions.

I'm going to say it again, maybe you'll understand it this time (God-willing). You can do whatever you want to your wife. You can ignore her, isolate her, alienate her, demand things of her. Go ahead. It's not my problem. I don't operate in that way.

Let me say it again, because I think you're finding it hard to understand me. You...can...do...anything...you...want....to...your....wife.

One more time....you can do anything you want to your wife. Lord give me strength. xD What I'm saying is honestly so simple. Lots of Christian people communicate verbally when they have issues in their marriage. What I'm saying is so simple. It's not sinful in any way. Many marriages break down because of a lack of communication (or so I hear/read). You're trying to make me seem like I'm sinful because I'm advocating for something so simple/basic as verbal communication between spouses. God bless you.

lovelife34 · May 26, 2020

solid_core said:
He must know some good girl to make the steps for, first

True, but you're assuming all girls are 'bad' until proven otherwise, not the other way around. xD

lovelife34 · May 26, 2020

Thir7ySev3n said:
As

This was addressed above. Additionally, discipline is for those who are loved (Revelation 3:19).

Wow, I just reread what you wrote...You said I called the Bible manipulation and secular ideology wisdom...wow. Quote me saying these exact words.... Oh wait, what? I never said that? You're putting words in my mouth? Oh okay.

This is how we end this. Simple and sweet. When you give me the exact Bible verses that instruct a man to ignore his wife and cancel dates to get what he wants, then I will agree that you use biblical doctrine. IF there are no Bible verses that instruct husbands to ignore wives and cancel dates, then we can conclude that you are PERVERTING the Word of God for your own selfish desires. Blasphemy is a sin. God hates sin.

My point is that you're arbitrarily choosing to do whatever you want. There are NO Bible verses on ignoring your wife or canceling a date or emotionally withdrawing to get what you want. None. Not in the Old Testament, not in the New Testament...nowhere.

EXCERPT
"
If by "turns his back", you mean that he ignores them, neglects them, or even refuses to have anything to do with them (but where his material support for them is not at issue), the Bible frequently likens the relationship of a man to his family (as both a husband and father) to the relationship of God to His people with respect to His love and care for them. If the man refuses to fulfill those roles, he is failing to provide the model that God intended for a husband and father to carry out within the family (Ephesians 5:25-33).

The Bible also refers to the relationship between a husband and wife as "one flesh" (Genesis 2:24). This unique closeness that God intended for a husband and wife to have is broken when either spouse becomes indifferent to the other, or ignores them.
April 02 2016 • 0 responses • Vote Up • Share • Report

" Hmmm, so it seems that your approach isn't biblical. Communicating verbally is biblical. It's not a sin.

But let me spew some stuff out for you.
Colossians 3:19 ESV / 55 helpful votes
Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.
1 Peter 3:7 ESV / 54 helpful votes
Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
Ephesians 5:25 ESV / 30 helpful votes
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Proverbs 18:22 ESV / 19 helpful votes
He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord.
Ephesians 4:31-32 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Matthew 7:12 ESV / 5 helpful votes
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Paidiske · May 26, 2020

Tolworth John said:
But in every organisation whether a marriage a business partnership there has to be someone who has the final say. That is the man.

People often say this, but it's simply not true. There are other models of decision making than giving one person "the final say" by default. For example, a couple might agree that they won't make any major decision until they both agree about it. On a scale larger than a single couple, I understand a version of that approach is commonly used by the Society of Friends.

Aussie Pete · May 26, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
To me both a carpet and $5000 are *different than* the loss of life that would have been the outcome in the example I gave.

You judge that the wife was in the wrong for what she did, but scripture seems to disagree with you:

Now the name of the man was Nabal; and the name of his wife Abigail; and the woman was of good understanding, and of a beautiful countenance: but the man was churlish and evil in his doings; and he was of the house of Caleb. (1 Samuel 25:3, ASV)

And you’re implying that you’re a better judge of righteousness than King David who said:

And David said to Abigail, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, who sent thee this day to meet me: and blessed be thy discretion, and blessed be thou, that hast kept me this day from bloodguiltiness, and from avenging myself with mine own hand. (1 Samuel 25:32-33, ASV)

You say she isn’t answerable to God but David praises God for sending her so at least from David’s perspective this didn’t happen because of her own ingenuity and initiative but because God put her in a situation where she answered correctly.

Some people will try to to wriggle out of this as best they can....... The principle does not apply to wickedness. I've said this already, several times. But no, someone has to find fault with God's word and find an excuse to disobey. Take it up with God. I did not make the rules.

a-lily-of-peace · May 26, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Some people will try to to wriggle out of this as best they can....... The principle does not apply to wickedness. I've said this already, several times. But no, someone has to find fault with God's word and find an excuse to disobey. Take it up with God. I did not make the rules.

I did give it to God and instantly felt the essence of Luke 6:28 come to me so I know he wants me to be kind to you.

You say the principle doesn’t apply to wickedness but you still judged Abigail to be in the wrong. That’s a very unorthodox interpretation of the story. In fact, last night I ended up hearing a recorded sermon from a legitimately conservative “cover your heads in church” preacher who judged it to be an example of why men shouldn’t be too proud to listen to women when even King David was grateful to Abigail for her actions which prevented him from taking so many lives.

All of that considered I’m actually completely fine with letting God judge whether your judgement was right or wrong because I know the answer is already there, and that if any of that nastiness you just said does apply to me, that he will continue to perfect and purify my heart so I can let go of any attachment to the mind of the world and “debating” and that.

And now I hope you do have peace, that your pain is healed.

Shalom.

Aussie Pete · May 27, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
I did give it to God and instantly felt the essence of Luke 6:28 come to me so I know he wants me to be kind to you.

You say the principle doesn’t apply to wickedness but you still judged Abigail to be in the wrong. That’s a very unorthodox interpretation of the story. In fact, last night I ended up hearing a recorded sermon from a legitimately conservative “cover your heads in church” preacher who judged it to be an example of why men shouldn’t be too proud to listen to women when even King David was grateful to Abigail for her actions which prevented him from taking so many lives.

All of that considered I’m actually completely fine with letting God judge whether your judgement was right or wrong because I know the answer is already there, and that if any of that nastiness you just said does apply to me, that he will continue to perfect and purify my heart so I can let go of any attachment to the mind of the world and “debating” and that.

And now I hope you do have peace, that your pain is healed.

Shalom.

Where do you get your understanding from? I said NOTHING about Abigail. She stopped her husband getting murdered. Great. GOD took care of Nabal, not Abigail. Mrs Moses rebuked him (Moses) for not having the boys circumcised. Good. Submission does not mean spiritual, mental, emotional or physical suicide.

a-lily-of-peace · May 27, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Where do you get your understanding from? I said NOTHING about Abigail. She stopped her husband getting murdered. Great. GOD took care of Nabal, not Abigail. Mrs Moses rebuked him (Moses) for not having the boys circumcised. Good. Submission does not mean spiritual, mental, emotional or physical suicide.

This is what I said:

“It’s not hard to offer hypothetical examples of self denial over trivial things, but what if the husband refuses to spend his money to give charitably, the wife rejects his decision, goes behind his back to give a large amount according to her own judgement of what’s right, and starts bad mouthing him while doing it?

At least in 1 Samuel 25, the husband dies within a fortnight and the wife ends up marrying King David.”

And this was your reply:

“She's in the wrong. She is showing no respect. She is not answerable to God, he is. If she has her own income, fine, let her do with it as she pleases. But she has no right to give what is not hers. I'm not sure new carpet is trivial. It cost me $5,000!”

(bold added for emphasis)

LovebirdsFlying · May 27, 2020

Paidiske said:
I don't think say in financial decisions for a household should depend on equality of earnings. Even spouses who don't earn well can be very badly affected by unwise financial decisions!

I wanted to revisit this with a few thoughts:

1.) How many men have uttered some variation on this line? "I make the decisions because I pay the bills around here!" My father and my first husband both often said it even though, ironically, both of them were financially unstable and frequently out of work.

The first time my weekly paycheck came out to more than my husband's, I jokingly said it to him. He knew I was joking, and laughed with me. In truth, for a long time I was too disabled to work. This meant not merely being unable to earn a paycheck, but even being limited in what I could do around the house. (I used to draw disability, but that stopped when we got married, because my husband's income disqualified me.) For so long I felt bad about not carrying what I saw as my share of the load, given that he not only supported me financially, but then he also had to come home and do the chores I couldn't do. My greatest regret was not being able to help him pay the bills he often stressed over. Now I can. Praise the Lord Almighty.

2.) How many men (including my father) have uttered the above line, while simultaneously *forbidding* his wife to get a paying job and earn her own money? Even when my father was out of a job himself, my mother was not allowed to get one, because a woman's place was at home!

As for my first husband, he didn't outright forbid me to work, but he did make sure we lived in the middle of Podunk, USA, with no businesses within walking distance and no public transportation. Then he would neither teach me to drive a car, nor pay for lessons. So, in effect, he stopped me from being able to get a job. This kept me nice and dependent on him, so I would have a harder time leaving him when he started getting drunk and hitting me.

You can bet that to both of those men, the word "submit" meant, "I run this ship, woman, and don't you forget it. You'd better do everything I say, or else."

I take it nobody here would say that this is what Biblical submission is all about? Because they both thought it was.

Paidiske · May 27, 2020

This feels like a good time to revisit this diagram representing various dimensions of abuse in the home:

Thir7ySev3n · May 27, 2020

lovelife34 said:
Let's just be real. You can call me names if you want, but it doesn't make sense why you are so bothered with me telling you that I don't operate in relationships by isolating/alienating people. Notice how, in our exchanges, I never once insulted you or called you names. I guess you need to work on your fruits of the spirit. Name-calling is very immature and not Christ-like, at all. I talked about narcississtic people existing in the world, I never called YOU one. I talked about those actions sounding manipulative/coercive but I never characterized YOU as those traits. But, if the shoe fits, tie those shoelaces up, and wear it!

I use verbal communication to discuss things with people. You can ignore your wife and cancel dates if you want. I don't know how much more I have to say to make you understand this. You can do whatever you want with your own wife.

Which verse does God command every husband to isolate and alienate his wife if she doesn't behave the way she wants him to? Which verse does God command husbands to cancel dates? Which verse does God command husbands to stop doing nice things for his wife?

"
Zach and Amanda (not their real names) were happily married and attending a growing church on the east coast. They started a family and got involved in ministry. Things were going well for this young Christian couple. But then Zach took a major spiritual detour.

He swallowed the Red Pill. At first Amanda noticed her husband was developing odd attitudes about women. He would talk about how "all women" are highly emotional and how they want to manipulate men. Then Zach began to play mind games with his wife: ignoring her, blaming her for everything or cutting off sexual contact for days to teach her a lesson.
Then he started demanding total submission from Amanda. He began quoting 1 Peter 3:6, which says that Sarah called her husband Abraham "lord." Meanwhile he would sometimes call his wife stupid if they argued.

"It was definitely mental and psychological abuse," Amanda says. "His love was conditional. He would say, 'You need to follow me completely, and then I will give you what you need.'"

Finally, Amanda couldn't take it anymore. She began to fear that Zach might abuse her physically. "I was constantly crying. I was miserable and depressed," she told me this week in an interview. Although Amanda is not ready to give up her marriage, and she hopes for restoration, her trust in Zach is shattered, and she has started seeing a counselor."

Hmm, sounds so familiar. I tried to find the Bible verses on canceling dates and isolation, I couldn't. Please direct me to those verses.

Traffic laws, and other laws are not made to make us feel ashamed. The reason why you don't drive on a red light is because you don't want to get killed, or kill someone else by crashing into them. It's not about making someone feel bad, it's about life and death, and safety. Laws that prevent homicide, for example, are not made to make us ashamed. It's about life and death. There are some laws that penalize people for shoplifting. It's about justice, not about shame. It's not manipulation. You don't fundamentally understand what manipulation is, that's okay.

And again, your logical leaps don't make any sense. So because I said that I communicate verbally instead of isolating/ignoring people, I don't trust God? "Relational withdrawal" is pop psychology, fyi. xD It's not in the Bible.

It's okay for people to not agree with you, it's okay for people to have dissenting opinions.

I'm going to say it again, maybe you'll understand it this time (God-willing). You can do whatever you want to your wife. You can ignore her, isolate her, alienate her, demand things of her. Go ahead. It's not my problem. I don't operate in that way.

Let me say it again, because I think you're finding it hard to understand me. You...can...do...anything...you...want....to...your....wife.

One more time....you can do anything you want to your wife. Lord give me strength. xD What I'm saying is honestly so simple. Lots of Christian people communicate verbally when they have issues in their marriage. What I'm saying is so simple. It's not sinful in any way. Many marriages break down because of a lack of communication (or so I hear/read). You're trying to make me seem like I'm sinful because I'm advocating for something so simple/basic as verbal communication between spouses. God bless you.

I'm not sure why you are repeating your point about not being concerned with how I interact with my wife. It is irrelevant because I am talking about neither you nor me, but practical ways that every husband needs to behave to image God to His wife accurately (answering biblically the question you first asked about practical examples of submission). It is also irrelevant what you would do in your circumstances, as you are a woman and don't have the authority to discipline your husband. That is God's job as He is the husband's head (1 Corinthians 11:3). What the Bible says is so simple, Lord give you strength.

God compares Himself as a husband with a bride (His people) in both the OT and NT. Christ says He still disciplines His church in the NT because He loves them (Revelation 3:19). So if men are supposed to image the love of Christ, what are some examples of how God disciplines His bride? The Bible is full of examples of God withdrawing Himself, His blessing, ignoring prayers and making His people long to restore His presence (to list a few out of over 100: Zechariah 7:13, Jeremiah 11:14, Ezekiel 5:11, Lamentations 3:44, Psalms 13:1, Psalms 30:7, Psalms 51:11, Psalms 88:14, Revelation 2:5).

Of course sins against a flesh and blood husband are going to be of a different sort than those towards God (such as building temples, offering prayers to other "gods", seeking the help of wicked nations, fasting hypocritically, etc.). As such, the carnal disciplines and consequences will be different. So while God can withdraw to the point you end up destroyed and in slavery for 70 years in His anger (Jeremiah 25), the husband's withdrawals are merely human in representation and would instead be an extent of his communications and non-essential provisions, or withdrawing stewardships, etc.

To repeat as a final note about laws and disciplines, they are all manipulation, because manipulation is altering something from its natural state. If someone intends to do or say anything, and you perform some action to prevent or discourage it, you have manipulated their natural course by means of coercion. The moment you even discipline a child in a way that alters their behaviour (temporarily or permanently) from its natural course, you have manipulated their mind. You are just abusing the word to mean anything which coerces in a way you deem unacceptable. If this is not what you mean, then you are clanging cymbals complaining about manipulation.

Also, you are mismatching your responses with what I say, so I'd take a second glance while you're writing to make sure you aren't trying to put a square peg through a circle hole. I never made the equivalence between "not ignoring people = not trusting God." I said not trusting God to provide for you when a husband fails miserably is not trusting God, according to Christ (1 Peter 3:6, Matthew 6:33).

Thir7ySev3n · May 27, 2020

Wow, I just reread what you wrote...You said I called the Bible manipulation and secular ideology wisdom...wow. Quote me saying these exact words.... Oh wait, what? I never said that? You're putting words in my mouth? Oh okay.

This is how we end this. Simple and sweet. When you give me the exact Bible verses that instruct a man to ignore his wife and cancel dates to get what he wants, then I will agree that you use biblical doctrine. IF there are no Bible verses that instruct husbands to ignore wives and cancel dates, then we can conclude that you are PERVERTING the Word of God for your own selfish desires. Blasphemy is a sin. God hates sin.

My point is that you're arbitrarily choosing to do whatever you want. There are NO Bible verses on ignoring your wife or canceling a date or emotionally withdrawing to get what you want. None. Not in the Old Testament, not in the New Testament...nowhere.

EXCERPT
"
If by "turns his back", you mean that he ignores them, neglects them, or even refuses to have anything to do with them (but where his material support for them is not at issue), the Bible frequently likens the relationship of a man to his family (as both a husband and father) to the relationship of God to His people with respect to His love and care for them. If the man refuses to fulfill those roles, he is failing to provide the model that God intended for a husband and father to carry out within the family (Ephesians 5:25-33).

The Bible also refers to the relationship between a husband and wife as "one flesh" (Genesis 2:24). This unique closeness that God intended for a husband and wife to have is broken when either spouse becomes indifferent to the other, or ignores them.
April 02 2016 • 0 responses • Vote Up • Share • Report

" Hmmm, so it seems that your approach isn't biblical. Communicating verbally is biblical. It's not a sin.

But let me spew some stuff out for you.
Colossians 3:19 ESV / 55 helpful votes
Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.
1 Peter 3:7 ESV / 54 helpful votes
Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
Ephesians 5:25 ESV / 30 helpful votes
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Proverbs 18:22 ESV / 19 helpful votes
He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord.
Ephesians 4:31-32 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Matthew 7:12 ESV / 5 helpful votes
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

You don't have to say the exact words any more than Jesus has to say "I am God, worship me!" verbatim to have been communicating that. You respond to biblical quotes repeatedly by saying you will not change according to them, but your mind clearly is predisposed to believing secular sciences falsely so-called and has changed according to them (or you would not be employing them as arguments while resisting explicit Scripture in context).

The husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. Christ says He disciplines those He loves (Revelation 3:19). Therefore, a husband who loves his wife will discipline her the way Christ does. Using examples from the OT and NT, God withdraws Himself, answers to prayer, blessings and stewardships in response to unrepentatnt rebellion (as aforementioned, to list a few out of over 100: Zechariah 7:13, Jeremiah 11:14, Ezekiel 5:11, Lamentations 3:44, Psalms 13:1, Psalms 30:7, Psalms 51:11, Psalms 88:14, Revelation 2:5).

If you really want, I can collect for you every verse about God withdrawing Himself, ignoring His people, removing blessings, withdrawing stewardships, and relate that back to a husband loving His wife as Christ loved the church, which includes discipline, but you'd have a lot to read and probably would ignore all of it.

Thir7ySev3n · May 27, 2020

lovelife34 said:
But let me spew some stuff out for you.
Colossians 3:19 ESV / 55 helpful votes
Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.
1 Peter 3:7 ESV / 54 helpful votes
Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
Ephesians 5:25 ESV / 30 helpful votes
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Proverbs 18:22 ESV / 19 helpful votes
He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord.
Ephesians 4:31-32 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Matthew 7:12 ESV / 5 helpful votes
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

And alas, finally something pertaining to fundamental reality from the eternal Creator of the universe.

I agree completely and already live out all of these (though obviously imperfectly), as I am happily obligated to. You would do well to do the same with your obligations as a woman. I understand that I must never be bitter, even under physical and "emotional" abuse (real or perceived). I understand that my love must never fail, and only adultery legitimates divorce. I understand that a wife is a good thing (even if she isn't perfect). And I understand husbands should be compassionate and remember the wife is weaker.

Finally, I love that Christ rules and reigns over me, and commands me according to His will and not my own. I love that He humiliates me in pride, and exalts me in humility, and that He disciplines me when I am slow to learn. I shall be to my wife as He is to me and as I would desire Him to be to me, loving my neighbour as myself.

LovebirdsFlying · May 27, 2020

I should mention that the husband I now have is the reason I've come this far. Every bit of the progress in recovery I have made is because he helped. He'll say to give the glory to God, and that I'm the one who did the work of climbing out of the pit. Those things are true, but he's the one who threw down that rope when God sent him to me. At any point he could have decided I wasn't climbing fast enough, and he could have cut the rope and walked away. But he didn't. He stuck with me until I finally recovered psychologically enough to no longer need medication or therapy, and physically enough to no longer need a cane. He bought me a used car and paid for driving lessons. Now I not only have a job, I can drive myself to it every day. Just like any other adult human being in reasonably good health.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is how a husband loves his wife. He truly does want the best for me. Does he deserve my respect as a result? Oh, yes.

Does he discipline me? I suppose you could say so. When we went out to eat, I used to always pay attention to what he ordered, and then make sure my order was less expensive than his. I didn't want him spending more money on me than he did on himself. When he caught on to this, he started making me order first so I'd have no choice but to get what I liked. And, as previously mentioned, he has taught me about work ethic, about sticking with things until they're accomplished, and about wise spending habits. He leads by example.

Easy to submit to a man like that. Much easier than to one who simply barks orders and expects unquestioning obedience.

lovelife34 · May 27, 2020

Thir7ySev3n said:
I'm not sure why you are repeating your point about not being concerned with how I interact with my wife. It is irrelevant because I am talking about neither you nor me, but practical ways that every husband needs to behave to image God to His wife accurately (answering biblically the question you first asked about practical examples of submission). It is also irrelevant what you would do in your circumstances, as you are a woman and don't have the authority to discipline your husband. That is God's job as He is the husband's head (1 Corinthians 11:3). What the Bible says is so simple, Lord give you strength.

God compares Himself as a husband with a bride (His people) in both the OT and NT. Christ says He still disciplines His church in the NT because He loves them (Revelation 3:19). So if men are supposed to image the love of Christ, what are some examples of how God disciplines His bride? The Bible is full of examples of God withdrawing Himself, His blessing, ignoring prayers and making His people long to restore His presence (to list a few out of over 100: Zechariah 7:13, Jeremiah 11:14, Ezekiel 5:11, Lamentations 3:44, Psalms 13:1, Psalms 30:7, Psalms 51:11, Psalms 88:14, Revelation 2:5).

Of course sins against a flesh and blood husband are going to be of a different sort than those towards God (such as building temples, offering prayers to other "gods", seeking the help of wicked nations, fasting hypocritically, etc.). As such, the carnal disciplines and consequences will be different. So while God can withdraw to the point you end up destroyed and in slavery for 70 years in His anger (Jeremiah 25), the husband's withdrawals are merely human in representation and would instead be an extent of his communications and non-essential provisions, or withdrawing stewardships, etc.

To repeat as a final note about laws and disciplines, they are all manipulation, because manipulation is altering something from its natural state. If someone intends to do or say anything, and you perform some action to prevent or discourage it, you have manipulated their natural course by means of coercion. The moment you even discipline a child in a way that alters their behaviour (temporarily or permanently) from its natural course, you have manipulated their mind. You are just abusing the word to mean anything which coerces in a way you deem unacceptable. If this is not what you mean, then you are clanging cymbals complaining about manipulation.

Also, you are mismatching your responses with what I say, so I'd take a second glance while you're writing to make sure you aren't trying to put a square peg through a circle hole. I never made the equivalence between "not ignoring people = not trusting God." I said not trusting God to provide for you when a husband fails miserably is not trusting God, according to Christ (1 Peter 3:6, Matthew 6:33).

I had to repeat it several times for you to understand. And we're back to square one. Show me the Bible verses that God instructs husbands to ignore their wives and cancel dates! I'm still waiting! The truth is, those ideas came from your flesh, and/or a Red Pill site. That's my point. God did not tell any husband to do that. It is your own pride that won't allow you to admit that God did not instruct you to ignore your wife.

You ignored the excerpt I posted earlier, which directly goes against your 'relational withdrawal' "
If by "turns his back", you mean that he ignores them, neglects them, or even refuses to have anything to do with them (but where his material support for them is not at issue), the Bible frequently likens the relationship of a man to his family (as both a husband and father) to the relationship of God to His people with respect to His love and care for them. If the man refuses to fulfill those roles, he is failing to provide the model that God intended for a husband and father to carry out within the family (Ephesians 5:25-33).

The Bible also refers to the relationship between a husband and wife as "one flesh" (Genesis 2:24). This unique closeness that God intended for a husband and wife to have is broken when either spouse becomes indifferent to the other, or ignores them."
Where did you hear the term 'relational withdrawal?' I searched it up and an article about infant abuse comes up.

Traffic laws and other laws are not manipulation, but we can agree to disagree.

lovelife34 · May 27, 2020

Thir7ySev3n said:
And alas, finally something pertaining to fundamental reality from the eternal Creator of the universe.

I agree completely and already live out all of these (though obviously imperfectly), as I am happily obligated to. You would do well to do the same with your obligations as a woman. I understand that I must never be bitter, even under physical and "emotional" abuse (real or perceived). I understand that my love must never fail, and only adultery legitimates divorce. I understand that a wife is a good thing (even if she isn't perfect). And I understand husbands should be compassionate and remember the wife is weaker.

Finally, I love that Christ rules and reigns over me, and commands me according to His will and not my own. I love that He humiliates me in pride, and exalts me in humility, and that He disciplines me when I am slow to learn. I shall be to my wife as He is to me and as I would desire Him to be to me, loving my neighbour as myself.

"You would do well to do the same with your obligations as a woman." Oh, so even though I say you can do whatever you want to your wife, you're here telling me what's good for me.... intriguing... tbh, I know what will work. You win. I give up. God commanded all husbands to ignore/emotionally withdraw from their wives to get what they want. It's in the Bible. In the Book of Thir7ySev3n, chapter 3, verse 7.....

lovelife34 · May 27, 2020

Paidiske said:
This feels like a good time to revisit this diagram representing various dimensions of abuse in the home:

View attachment 277730

Wow, this is extremely helpful! Thank you for posting this.

Thir7ySev3n · May 27, 2020

lovelife34 said:
I had to repeat it several times for you to understand. And we're back to square one. Show me the Bible verses that God instructs husbands to ignore their wives and cancel dates! I'm still waiting! The truth is, those ideas came from your flesh, and/or a Red Pill site. That's my point. God did not tell any husband to do that. It is your own pride that won't allow you to admit that God did not instruct you to ignore your wife.

You ignored the excerpt I posted earlier, which directly goes against your 'relational withdrawal' "
If by "turns his back", you mean that he ignores them, neglects them, or even refuses to have anything to do with them (but where his material support for them is not at issue), the Bible frequently likens the relationship of a man to his family (as both a husband and father) to the relationship of God to His people with respect to His love and care for them. If the man refuses to fulfill those roles, he is failing to provide the model that God intended for a husband and father to carry out within the family (Ephesians 5:25-33).

The Bible also refers to the relationship between a husband and wife as "one flesh" (Genesis 2:24). This unique closeness that God intended for a husband and wife to have is broken when either spouse becomes indifferent to the other, or ignores them."
Where did you hear the term 'relational withdrawal?' I searched it up and an article about infant abuse comes up.

Traffic laws and other laws are not manipulation, but we can agree to disagree.

1. God on many occasions withdraws Himself and His blessings and ignores His bride/church for a time.
2. God is perfect love (1 John 4:8), thus this can not be unloving discipline.
3. Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30) and the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8). The God of the OT and NT is the same.
4. A man is designed and assigned to image God/Christ, representing Him to his wife (Ephesians 5:22-29, 1 Corinthians 11:3-9).
5. Christ disciplines those He loves (Revelation 3:19) and this discipline has included temporary withdrawals to draw us back to proper union (verses listed several times above, et al.).
6. Therefore, a man aptly represents God be practicing such discipline.

lovelife34 said:
"You would do well to do the same with your obligations as a woman." Oh, so even though I say you can do whatever you want to your wife, you're here telling me what's good for me.... intriguing... tbh, I know what will work. You win. I give up. God commanded all husbands to ignore/emotionally withdraw from their wives to get what they want. It's in the Bible. In the Book of Thir7ySev3n, chapter 3, verse 7.....

While this is amusing, you have been misled if some particular person here has convinced you pretending to agree with me has any value to myself. I'm concerned about propagating God's doctrines relentlessly for any spectator of the conversation who would believe God's word on account of hearing/seeing it, because this is what we are commanded to do and warned will not be endured (2 timothy 4:2-3).

As I said, this is not about you or myself, but upholding Scripture for God's people as a whole (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and remaining unspotted by the world (James 1:27, Colossians 2:8) because this is what Christ finds beautiful (Ephesians 5:27).

Submission and obedience.

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My husband drew this cartoon of me.

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Psalm 139

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My husband drew this cartoon of me.

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