THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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ClementofA

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Yet here you still are thinking that the wicked get a free pass to Heaven which is not biblical

Where has any Christian universalist here said "the wicked get a free pass to Heaven"?

Do you believe you have to work your way to heaven?

Does your belief in endless annihilationism help you follow Jesus?

Why did you start this thread?

and neither do you have any scripture to show that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming?

We do: Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; Col.1:16-20; Phil.2:9-11.

Does it not concern you that you have no scripture for your teachings and this opinion is the opposite of what the scriptures teach from God's Word?

Do you think that - we - think we "have no scripture for (our) teachings"?

Do you consider your interpretation of Scripture infallible?

Can you - prove - from the context of the verses i gave above that they support your opinion of bible interpretation?

We need to challenge ourselves to what we believe

Then why don't you address the post i keep asking you to answer?

Ignoring other's points and responses is no way to win a debate in the eyes of the onlookers of this thread. Let alone continual stubborn misrepresentations of universalist beliefs.

The wicked according to the scriptures are destroyed after the second coming.

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol and later recover. So what if the wicked are "destroyed". What Love Omnipotent destroys He can restore. Jesus said, Destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up (Jn.2:19, paraphrase). King Neb's soul was so destroyed by the Saviour of all mankind that he ate grass like an animal for 7 years until God restored him by destroying his destruction. So can you not see that the destruction of which you speak is no - proof - for the endless annihilation Hitler job on anyone. And why would Love Crucified want to sadistically torment (Rev.14:11; 20:10) anyone He intended to blot out of existence for eternity? Your theology makes - no - sense!

There is no more second chances at this time dear friend.

Perhaps next time you say that you should provide a scripture that says "There is no more second chances". Maybe add with it an explanation why the Love of the Omnipotent expired like a carton of milk.

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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Shrewd Manager

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Be careful leaving prayer ratings under my posts @Shrewd Manager that is considered goading by the TOS.

Thank you kindly (for the prayer).

I often give prayer ratings where the content makes me want to praise God, and not only to pray for the poster (for whatever reason). There are as many reasons to give prayer ratings as there are reasons to pray, no?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Dr. Marvin Vincent

olethron aionion in 2Th. 1:9:
‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5).

Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Hello dear Fine. The first part of your cut and paste from another website is irrelavant to my post to you and does not effect anything from the scriptures that has been shared with you as I agree that the context of ETERNAL "aeon" here is to "DESTRUCTION" G3639: ὀλέθριος, ὀλέθριον (olethron) in 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and destruction does not happen forever as in eternal burning hell, but the destruction when it happens is eternal.

I agree that the scripture is not saying that the process of being destroyed is forever or eternal, which is the teachings of ECT which is not biblical. So the first 3/4 of your post above on aion or aionion is irrelavant to our discussion as I do not believe in eternal buring hell.

The application of the GREEK however is to context and application to the scriptures so let's start off with the word meaning before looking at the context to which it is applied.

As to the meaning and context of "aeon" (eternal) to "destruction" (olethron), the actual GREEK reads like this...

"Who the penalty shall suffer (context to the wicked and God's vengence) destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength" (a scanned image is provided below)

The meaning of destruction as shown in the Greek is that the destruction is eternal not the process with further context to God's "vengence on the wicked" *2 THESSALONIANS 1:8.

The Greek word meaning of destruction being...

BDAG GREEK meaning of "destruction" ὀλέθριος, ὀλέθριον (olethron) ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ (ὄλλυμι ‘destroy’; Hom.+; SIG 527, 82 [c. 220 B.C.]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX; PsSol 8:1; TestReub 4:6; 6:3; Philo; Jos., Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; SibOr 3, 327; 348) ① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring (hostile spirits work ἐπʼ ὀλέθρῳ τοῦ γένους τῶν ἀνθρώπων Orig., C. Cels. 8, 54, 32): ἔρχεταί τινι ὄλ. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26). αἰφνίδιος αὐτοῖς ἐφίσταται ὄλ. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3. βυθίζειν τινὰ εἰς ὄλ. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9. ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9 (s. ὀλέθριος).

To be continued...
 
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LoveGodsWord

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An interesting exegetical article on 2 Thessalonians 1:9

Some English translations of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 support the notion that unbelievers will experience eternal conscious separation from God, while other translations support that notion that God will annihilate unbelievers. These two notions are dramatically different. Supporters of each position pick specific translations of this passage to support their own position and refute the opposition. For that reason, I have spent significant effort trying to understand what Paul truly intended when he wrote this passage.

To determine which set of translations are most accurate, we must examine the original Greek source. Here is a scanned image of II Thessalonians 1:9 from Greek to English Interlinear New Testament, published by World Publishing:

7598291.png


The ability to read Greek will not be necessary to understand my analysis, but I want to show the correspondence between the Greek and the English words in this passage.

The table below presents three translations of II Thessalonians 1:9. The first is the word-for-word Greek translation take directly from the above image, the second is the NASB translation and the third is the King James translation. The NASB translation is often quoted by those who support the notion of eternal conscious separation, while the King James translation appears to support the notion of annihilation. (Note that I’ve underlined the word ‘away’ in the NASB translation.)

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To clarify the respective positions, I have written two paraphrases of this passage, one from the perspective of those who believe in eternal torment and one from those who believe in annihilation:

3146609_orig.png


By comparing those paraphrases to the actual translations, I hope it becomes clear how each side has interpreted the passage to come to their respective positions.

Now, to determine the intended meaning of the passage, two key questions must be answered:

1. When Paul said that these men would suffer 'destruction', did he mean that they would cease to exist, or did he mean that they would suffer ongoing existence in a ruined state?

2. On the day described by Paul in this passage, will God act to annihilate unbelievers and end their existence, or will he act to separate unbelievers to some other place?

I will first address the question of cessation of existence versus ruin, and then address the question of annihilation versus separation.

Destruction or Ruin?
The word translated as ‘destruction’ in this verse is OLETHROS (or OLETHRON is an alternative spelling). The basic definition is ‘ruin, destruction’. Let’s initially consider the English meaning of those two words.

‘Ruin’ tends to imply a loss of function and therefore normally applies to objects that have some function. For example, we say that a cell phone was ruined by water. In that instance, the phone continues to exists, but it no longer functions as phone. Or, we might say a shirt was ruined by a stain. In that case, the shirt continues to exist, but it ceases to function as a shirt for us because we no longer want to wear it due to the stain. In both of these instances, the object continues to exist, but no longer functions as intended.

‘Destruction’, along with the verb form ‘destroy’, tends to imply the cessation of existence. For example, we might write that the records were destroyed in the fire, and the reader would understand that the records no longer exists. Or, we might write that a person's confidence was destroyed by an incident, and the reader would understand that his confidence no longer exists. On the other hand, sometimes the word ‘destroy’ in English can mean ruin - a loss of function with continued existence. We might write that the car was destroyed in the wreck. In that case, we would understand that the car continued to exist as a mass of twisted metal, but no longer functions as a car. Therefore, our English word ‘destruction’ could be used to mean either loss of function or cessation of existence.

In that way, the Greek word OLETHROS parallels very closely the way the word ‘destruction’ is used in English – it can be used to express either loss of function or cessation of existence. Given the multiple meanings of OLETHROS, we can’t know purely by definition whether Paul intended to express the loss of function or the cessation of existence.
Even so, we can gain additional clues by examining how Paul uses that word elsewhere in Scripture.

OLETHROS is used by Paul only four other times (Note: My bible software groups Hebrews with those books written by Paul. That seems unlikely, but I think it's fair to use Hebrews as an additional example of how words were used near the time of Paul). The table below lists those instances in the left column, with my conclusion as to its meaning in the right column:

61386_orig.png


By my count, OLETHROS is used twice to express cessation of existence, once to express ruin with ongoing existence, and once in a way that is unclear. This score of 2-1-1 lends credence to the suggestion that Paul intended to communicate that those who suffered the destruction in II Thessalonians would cease to exist, but it is not conclusive.

Unfortunately, the passages above are the only passages in the entire New Testament where OLETHROS is used, so we can't refer there for other instances. But we can continue our investigation by asking this question:

Does the Bible contain passages that demonstrate the presence of God as an annihilating force?

Biblical Precedence for Annihilation Coming from the Presence of the Lord
Even though we have limited data to examine the specific word (OLETHROS) that Paul used, we can see if there are other examples in the Bible regarding this concept of annihilation in the presence of God. If we do conduct that investigation, we see multiple instances where God's presence is undoubtedly presented as a force of annihilation. Here are some examples:

Many places in Scripture express the idea that the presence of God causes the cessation of human existence. Here are some passages that discuss the destruction that comes from the presence of God:
  • Lev 10:1-2 Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.
  • Exo 33:18-23 Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!" And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion." But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."
  • Num 16:20-21 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, "Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them instantly."
  • Deu 9:3 "Know therefore today that it is the LORD your God who is crossing over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and He will subdue them before you, so that you may drive them out and destroy them quickly, just as the LORD has spoken to you.
  • Heb 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
  • Heb 12:28-29 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.
There are many more. Those passages that reference fire are especially applicable to II Thessalonians 1:9 because we are told immediately preceding this verse that, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Conversely, I know of no place in Scripture where the presence of God leaves a man alive, but in a ruined state. Are we to believe that the God who is repeatedly described as a consuming fire will, at the final judgment, be transformed into a ruining fire?

A clear precedent exists that the presence of God will totally consume unbelievers. The annihilationist's view of this passage is the view that is most consistent with other passages that describe what happens when the fire of God’s presence is directed toward men.

Separation
In my mind, the most significant difference among various translations is whether Paul intended express an action of separation in this passage, or an action of annihilation. In the NASB translation above, this notion of separation is indicated by the insertion of the word ‘away’ into their translation. What is the justification for this?

At the heart of the issue is the correct translation of the Greek word APO. APO is defined to mean ‘from, off from, away from’. In II Thessalonians 1:9, the NASB translators have translated the Greek word APO as ‘away from’. Given that ‘away from’ is one option included in the Greek to English dictionaries, it might appear that ‘away from’ is a valid translation in this instance. A deeper investigation reveals some problems with that conclusion.

APO is used in Greek almost exactly the way ‘from’ is used in English. There are many variations of what APO can mean, but it most often expresses either the idea of source or the idea of separation. You might say, ‘I received a letter from (APO) John’. In that use, APO is used to connect a letter to its source, John. Alternatively, you might say, ‘Step away from (APO) the edge.’ In that use, (APO) is used to connect the verb (step away) to the object from which separation is desired, the edge.

As an undergraduate at DePauw University, I took two semesters of Greek. That does not qualify me as an expert in Greek. However, it does give some skill in making use of Greek dictionaries and other resources. One of those resources is Dr. Carl Huffman, who was my professor for those two semesters of Greek. Dr. Huffman is a wonderful Greek scholar but is not a theologian, by his own admission. I asked him if this word APO should be translated as ‘from’ or ‘away from’ in this passage.

He did generally concur with the Greek-to-English dictionary in saying that APO should sometimes be translated as ‘away from’. Here is an example he gave:

EBOKETO MOUNOS APO ALLON
grazing alone away from the others

In this passage, a man comes upon a cow that is grazing alone, away from the other cows. The best translation of APO is ‘away from’. Why is that? Because the context demands it. The words immediately preceding APO are ‘grazing alone’ and the words immediately after are ‘the others’. That context makes it unambiguously clear that APO is intended to express separation and therefore validates the translation of APO as ‘away from’. Because of situations like this, authors of a Greek to English dictionary would need to include the possibility of translating APO as ‘away from’.

However, nothing about the word APO expresses separation on its own. APO can properly be used in situations where the context demands an understanding of separation, but the presence of APO does not bring to a passage any connotation of separation – it is only a connector.

Consider this passage from Paul in Romans 1:7
  • to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
It would be absurd to assert that Paul intended to mean, "Grace to you and peace away from God..." Nothing in the immediate vicinity of APO implies any concept of separation, so we clearly understand that God is the source of the grace and peace.

Let’s look at another example from Scripture that closely resembles II Thessalonians 1:9. The exact phrase ‘from the presence of the Lord’ that is found in II Thessalonians is also found in another book of the New Testament. In Acts 3:19, Peter says this:
  • Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from (APO) the presence of the Lord;

If the translators of the NASB were to translate this verse in the same way they translated II Thessalonions, they would translate it this way:
  • Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come away from (APO) the presence of the Lord;
Of course they didn’t do that. Why? Because there is no context expressing the idea of separation in this passage. It would be poor translating to insert the word ‘away’ into Acts 3:19. It makes much more sense to say that the presence of the Lord is the source of the refreshing.

I would like to demonstrate this even more clearly. Referring back to my undergraduate professor Dr. Huffman, he went on to say that the best way to understand what Paul meant is to look at other examples of his own writing. To properly translate passages, general examples from the language can be helpful, but specific examples from the same writer are the most conclusive.

I used software to find every instance in the NASB where Paul used the word APO. You can see those verses here. I found 105 verses (Note: my software includes ‘Hebrews’ as one of Paul’s letters) Of those 105 instances, only 5 times did the resulting English sentence include the phrase ‘away from’. That is, in 100 times out of 105 possibilities, APO is translated simply as ‘from’. Clearly, the translators of the NASB believe that APO should not be translated as ‘away from’ in the vast majority of situations.

to be continued...
 
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An interesting exegetical article on 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (Part 2)

First, let’s consider those 5 verses in Paul’s writing that contain the word APO and where the resulting NASB translation contains the phrase ‘away from’:
  • (Col 1:23) if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away (METAKINOUMENOI) from (APO) the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
    Note: the Greek verb METAKINOUMENOI means being moved away

  • (2Th 1:9) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from (APO) the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
    Note: No verb indicating separation

  • (2Th 3:6) Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away (STELLESTHAI) from (APO) every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.
    Note: the Greek verb STELLESTHAI means withdraw

  • (1Ti 6:10) For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away (APEPLANETHESAN) from (APO) the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
    Note: the Greek verb APEPLANETHESAN means were seduced

  • (Heb 3:12) Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away (APOSTENAI) from (APO) the living God.
    Note: the Greek verb_APOSTENAI means departing
In each of the examples above, except for II Thessalonians 1:9, a verb exists immediately before APO that expresses some form of separation. In those passages, it makes perfect sense to include the word ‘away' in the translation. Consider the key phrases in the four verses above, other than II Thessalonians 1:9:
  • moved away (METAKINOUMENOI) from
  • keep away (STELLESTHAI) from
  • wandered away (APEPLANETHESAN) from
  • falls away (APOSTENAI) from
When looking at those verses, one might say that APO is translated as 'away from'. However, it would seem more legitimate to say that the word 'away' actually comes from the verb and not from APO. That is, the verbs could be considered to be 'moved away' and 'keep away' and 'wandered away' and 'falls away'. Using that approach, then even in these four verse, APO is translated as just 'from' and not 'away from'. In that case, II Thessalonians 1:9 would be the only verse of Paul's writings where the NASB translators chose to translate APO as 'away from'. That should be seriously considered.

But regardless of whether you attach 'away' to the verb or to APO in those four examples above, you undoubtedly have clear context that expresses the notion of separation. That is not the case in II Thessalonians 1:9, where APO does not even follow a verb at all. That is, the phrase 'from the presence of the Lord' directly modifies the noun 'destruction'. Nothing in the context of that verse expresses any notion of separation.

I want to be totally clear on this, so please look at another set of verses. These verses contain no verb that denotes separation. In fact, these verses contain no verb at all the clearly denotes what was intended. So then, what was Paul trying to communicate in these verses? What you can see in every one of these examples is that APO expresses source in those situations where no verb, or any immediate context, brings in the notion separation:
  • (Rom 1:7) to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (1Co 1:3) Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (1Co 1:30) But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from (APO) God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
  • (2Co 1:2) Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (2Co 3:18) But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from (APO) the Lord, the Spirit.
  • (Gal 1:3) Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
  • (Gal 2:6) But from (APO) those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)--well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.
  • (Gal 4:24) This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding (APO) from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. (Note: The NASB inserted the verb 'proceeding' into this verse to make the meaning clear, but that verb was not in the original Greek)
  • (Eph 1:2) Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (Eph 6:23) Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from (APO) God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (Php 1:2) Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (Php 1:28) in no way alarmed by your opponents--which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from (APO) God.
  • (Col 1:2) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father.
  • (2Th 1:2) Grace to you and peace from (APO) God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (1Ti 1:2) To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from (APO) God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
  • (2Ti 1:2) To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from (APO) God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
  • (Tit 1:4) To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from (APO) God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
  • (Phm 1:3) Grace to you and peace from (APO) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (Heb 13:24) Greet all of your leaders and all the saints. Those from (APO) Italy greet you.

Paul was very comfortable using APO without a verb to express the notion of source. Just to be very clear about this, please read again the translation of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 from the Christian Standard Bible:
  • They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from (APO) the Lord’s presence and from (APO) his glorious strength.
When reading that verse in light of the previous verses, it becomes very easy to conclude that Paul intended to use the word APO to indicate the source of the destruction.

In fact, go one step further and remove the phrase "from the Lord's presence" from the verse, so that we can consider the second part of the phrase. (That last sentence is actually a perfect example of this current point. You'll notice that word 'remove' in that prior sentence is the key verb that expresses the notion of separation. Clear context expressing separation is always required, in addition to the word 'from', before a sentence will take on a meaning of separation.) In that case, we would have this sentence:
  • They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from his glorious strength.
It makes perfect sense to say that the source of the destruction will be the glorious strength of the Lord. As mentioned earlier, our God is described as a 'consuming fire', so the notion of destruction coming from his strength is very consistent with many other scriptures. But does it make any sense at all to say that the destruction will be away from the glorious strength of the Lord? To me, it does not.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the NASB translators chose to translate APO in II Thessalonians 1:9 in a way that was totally unique from the way they translated APO in any other of Paul’s writings. It’s as if the translators brought their own meaning with them to the passage, effectively saying, “We know Paul must have intended to express the idea of separation in this verse, so therefore we are justified for inserting the idea of separation into this verse by inserting the word ‘away’.”

Look again at the table below comparing the word-for-word Greek and the translations:

3204590_orig.png


Do you see how this verse was so significantly altered by the insertion of the word ‘away’? Insertion of the word 'away' is totally unjustified if one considers the clear and repeated habits demonstrated by Paul in his other writings.

Before moving on, let me share just one more verse that I found in my research. This comes from Hebrews. I won't delve into the argument of who wrote Hebrews, but nobody would deny that it is written in language that is contemporary with Paul. Consider this verse:
  • (Heb 7:26) For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated (κεχωρισμενος) from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
What we can see is here one example where the author truly did want to express the notion of separation. In order to make that clear, he explicitly inserted the verb κεχωρισμενος. Yet one more bit of evidence that Paul was not trying to express separation in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

After reviewing the evidence of other passages from Paul, Dr. Huffman said this:
  • So I think that you have made your case very well. It is true that outside of Paul there are some cases where apo means ‘separated from’ without a verb, but Paul's own usage is surely the best evidence for Paul. The puzzle then remains why scholars have typically translated the apo in the wrong way.
A puzzle, indeed. Just like in Acts 3:19, where the presence of the Lord was the source of the refreshing, the most obvious and straight-forward translation of this verse is that the presence of Lord is the source of the destruction.

A Different Approach
Let’s investigate even further. To do so, I want to change my approach. Up to this point, we have been starting with the words Paul used and asking asking what he meant when he used those words, as illustrated in this diagram:

1763305.png



That is a natural way to approach the problem, but is not the only way to investigate the passage. Another way to approach the problem is to ask how Paul might have expressed himself, given a certain belief, as illustrated in this diagram:

9619964.png


First, how might Paul have expressed a belief in eternal separation or torment? To answer that question, lets first consider how it might be expressed in English. We have examples from modern day English writers who believe in eternal torment. What you will consistently find among those who believe in eternal torment is the use of words like ‘never-ending torment’, ‘eternal conscious torment’ and ‘eternal separation from God’. It is unlikely that a modern-day biblical scholar would express his opinion as believing in eternal torment with the phrase “everlasting destruction”. It would be too easy for his audience to conclude that he meant “an eternally irreversible cessation of existence”.

So, the obvious question is this: If modern writers would not express eternal torment with the phrase 'eternal destruction', then why do we assume that Paul would express the concept that way? Greek words that mean ‘torment’, ‘conscious’ and ‘separation’ were available to Paul. If he wanted to express himself clearly, why didn’t he use those words? Not once in all of Paul's writings do we find the phrases ‘never-ending torment’, ‘eternal conscious torment’ or ‘eternal separation from God’. Would Paul trust that his doctrine of eternal separation would be sufficiently understood by his readers based only upon his description of ‘eternal destruction’?

We can observe how Paul expressed the concept of separation in other places. As just one example, here is 2 Corinthians 5:6-8:
  • 2Co 5:6-8 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent (EKDEMEO) from (APO) the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent (EKDEMEO) from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
This is a clear example of how Paul chose to express the idea of being absent from the Lord, and also absent from the body. He used the verb EKDEMEO. I don’t claim that this verb is the only way to express the concept of separation, but I do claim that Paul was able to clearly express what he wanted to say. Patterns exist in his writing. It is presumptuous to assume that he must have failed to be clear in II Thessalonians 1:9 and therefore we are justified to inject into his sentences words that he chose not to include.

On the other hand, what if Paul believed in annihilation? How might he have expressed himself? First, we should recognize that the words ‘annihilation’, ‘obliteration’ and ‘extinction” are Latin words and did not exist in the Greek language. Many of the English words that express cessation of existence today were not available to Paul. In fact, Professor Carl Huffman knows of no Greek word that unambiguously means annihilation. OLETHROS is one of the strongest words available in the Greek language to express the cessation of existence.

to be continued...
 
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An interesting exegetical article on 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (Part 3)

Besides the basic definition of the term OLETHROS and Paul’s use of that word in other passages, other evidence also exists to support the notion that Paul would have expressed annihilation using the word OLETHROS. Plato’s dialogue Phaedo might be the most famous Greek work on the subject of death and immortality. This dialogue recounts the day that Socrates was executed and records the conversation between Socrates and his students as he was awaiting his death.

Given the prominence of this dialogue in Greek culture, it is likely that its use of words had a lasting impact on how they were used. As a more modern example, the Declaration of Independence made famous the phrase ‘pursuit of happiness’. Not only did it make that phrase famous, but it effectively defined how that phrase was to be used by future generations. At this point in history, if any American uses the phrase ‘pursuit of happiness’ in a discussion of human rights, it would be assumed that he intended to express the meaning given that phrase in the Declaration of Independence.

The Greek culture in existence at the time of Paul undoubtedly would have been impacted by Phaedo’s use of language. I can’t claim for sure that Paul was influenced by Plato’s Phaedo, but I do know that he was highly educated and I suspect he had read it. Given that, consider these statements from the Phaedo:
  • But he might say that no one knows beforehand the particular death and the particular dissolution of the body which brings destruction (OLETHROS) to the soul, for none of us can perceive that. Now if this is the case, anyone who feels confident about death has a foolish confidence, unless he can show that the soul is altogether immortal and imperishable. Otherwise a man who is about to die must always fear that his soul will perish utterly in the impending dissolution of the body. (88)
  • And, Cebes, I believe, granted that the soul is more lasting than the body, but said that no one could know that the soul, after wearing out many bodies, did not at last perish itself upon leaving the body; and that this was death--the destruction (OLETHROS) of the soul (91)
  • You demand a proof that our soul is indestructible and immortal (ANOLETHRON)… And although we show that the soul is strong and godlike and existed before we men were born as men, all this, you say, may bear witness not to immortality, but only to the fact that the soul lasts a long while, and existed somewhere an immeasurably long time before our birth, and knew and did various things; yet it was none the more immortal for all that, but its very entrance into the human body was the beginning of its dissolution (OLETHROS) , a disease, as it were; and it lives in toil through this life and finally perishes in what we call death (95)
In each of these instances, OLETHROS is used to unequivocally expressed the cessation of existence. And that cessation of existence in these examples is applied but to the soul - the very object that we are currently considering. (One additional note. In that last passage above, I indicated Plato’s use of the word ANOLETHRON to express ‘immortality’. Not only is OLETHROS clearly used to expression the cessation of existence of the soul, but its opposite is used to express the immortality of the soul.)

Given Plato’s repeated use of OLETHROS in the Phaedo to express the cessation of existence of the soul, is it likely that Paul would have used the same term to express an ongoing existence? This seems very unlikely to me.
On the other hand, given all of the evidence I’ve laid out above, is it likely that Paul would have used the word OLETHROS to express the annihilation of the soul? Yes, I believe it is very likely.

Isaiah 2:10-22
On multiple occasions, I have read supporters of the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment refer to Isaiah 2:10-22, claiming that this passage bolsters their argument that Paul intended to express the notion of eternal separation from God in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. This is a very weak argument. In fact, referring to Isaiah 2:10-22 strengthens the case that Paul expects unbelievers to be annihilated on the day of judgment.

Here is the passage in question:
  • Isa 2:10-20 Enter the rock and hide in the dust from the terror of the LORD and from the splendor of His majesty. The proud look of man will be abased And the loftiness of man will be humbled, And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. For the LORD of hosts will have a day of reckoning Against everyone who is proud and lofty And against everyone who is lifted up, That he may be abased. And it will be against all the cedars of Lebanon that are lofty and lifted up, Against all the oaks of Bashan, Against all the lofty mountains, Against all the hills that are lifted up, Against every high tower, Against every fortified wall, Against all the ships of Tarshish And against all the beautiful craft. The pride of man will be humbled And the loftiness of men will be abased; And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day, But the idols will completely vanish. Men will go into caves of the rocks And into holes of the ground Before the terror of the LORD And the splendor of His majesty, When He arises to make the earth tremble. In that day men will cast away to the moles and the bats Their idols of silver and their idols of gold, Which they made for themselves to worship, In order to go into the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs Before the terror of the LORD and the splendor of His majesty, When He arises to make the earth tremble.
In the passage above, I’ve underlined one phrase that appears three different times. That phrase is the terror of the LORD And the splendor of His majesty. This phrase is very similar to the one Paul uses in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. In fact, I suspect most scholars agree that Paul used his phrase specifically to allude to this passage in Isaiah.

This is the essence of the argument I’ve read in reference to the above passage:
  • Since the passage above expresses clearly that men try to separate themselves from God’s presence, we must conclude that Paul was also expressing the notion of separation from God’s presence in 2 Thessalonians 1:9
I can list three distinct reasons why this is a weak argument:
  1. The passage above expresses separation through the use of the verbs “hide” and “go into”. The Greek preposition APO does not express separation on its own, which is the case we have in 2 Thessalonians 1:9
  2. The passage above clearly expresses the image of a fearful and terror-inducing God. It is absurd to propose that Paul would use this passage to represent the beauty of God's presence.
  3. The scenario described in the passage above is one where evil men are fleeing the justice of God, prior to them being apprehended. This passage says nothing about what will happen to them once they are apprehended and brought to judgment.
Let me address each one of these in detail now.

Expressing the Notion of Separation
As I’ve already detailed above, the Greek word APO (from) does not express the notion of separation on its own. I listed 104 examples in Paul’s writing where he used the word APO, and not once did he use it to express the notion of separation on its own. That’s just not the way APO works.

In this Isaiah passage, we clearly have the notion that these proud men will try to separate themselves from God’s presence. They are mortally terrified of falling into his hands, so they do all they can to hide themselves and escape his presence. The way this notion of separation is express can be seen in these three sentences:
  • Enter the rock and hide in the dust from the terror of the LORD and from the splendor of His majesty
  • Men will go into caves of the rocks and into holes of the ground Before the terror of the LORD And the splendor of His majesty
  • In order to go into the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs Before the terror of the LORD and the splendor of His majesty
In each case, it is the verb that clearly expresses the notion of separation, not the existence of the word APO (from) in the passage. It is silly to use these sentences to support the notion that APO can express separation on its own.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9, there is absolutely no verb expressing separation, nor anything else in the context that expresses a notion of separation. APO absolutely does not express separation in that verse.

Exclusion from Paradise
The passage above offers evidence that the presence of God is sometimes expressed as a fearful and terrible thing. However, other passages in Scripture clearly express the presence of God as very desirable - a beautiful, comforting and gentle thing. These expressions are not contradictory, but express the complex fullness of God, which includes both his holiness and his love. Here are just a few examples of scriptures which express the positive elements of God’s character, and I’ve underlined those nouns which apply to God :
  • Psa_36:7 How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.
  • Psa_27:4 One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, To behold the beauty of the LORD And to meditate in His temple.
  • Isa 63:7-9 I shall make mention of the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, the praises of the LORD, According to all that the LORD has granted us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has granted them according to His compassion And according to the abundance of His lovingkindnesses. For He said, "Surely, they are My people, Sons who will not deal falsely." So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
  • Act 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
The NASB version of II Thessalonians implies the positive elements of God. We know this because we are told that the unbelievers will be forced to spend eternity away from this presence. They will be forced to spend eternity away from the presence of God.

If Paul had intended to express the positive elements of God’s presence, we would expect him to make use of these same types of words. These words express those positive elements of God which stir desire in those that hear it and which would be withheld from a person that was separated from his presence.

What words did Paul use in II Thessalonians?
  • ...with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution…
  • …the glory of His power
These words don't sound much like the words in those passages which express those most desirable elements of Gods' nature. In using the word ‘power’, Paul seems generally to be concentrating on God’s ability to act. His power might conceivably be considered something to be desired, but it is far more frequently used in Scripture as something to be feared.

Clearly, this passage is not intending to express the warm, beautiful and loving elements of God. If Paul were intending to express those elements of God’s character which unbelievers would be excluded from, it is almost inconceivable that Paul would choose to reference this Isaiah passage to express those desirable elements of God.

I want to make this very clear with an illustration. Assume I have an 11-year old son. Assume also that the most wondrous and magical place that he can imagine is Disney World. I once thought something close to that.

Now, assume also that I want to motivate my son to act with wisdom and justice. As part of that motivation, I offer to take him to Disney World if he behaves well. Conversely, I warn him that he might be excluded from Disney World if he misbehaves.

In this analogy, I want to use Disney World as an analogy of the paradise that we are offered as believers in Christ. (I would never want to imply that we make it to heaven based upon our good works, but do want to set up an illustration where person might be excluded from the most wonderful place he can imagine.)

Now, I want to add one more element to this illustration. If I do a search on the phrase “tragedies at Disney World”, I can find several examples of tragedies that occurred at Disney World. (This is not intended to impugn their record of safety - no amount of effort would be enough to avoid all tragedies.) Sadly, one actual event is that an 11-year old boy child was killed after being a struck by a bus at one of the resorts.

Given that setup, imagine I said this to my son:
  • If you don’t behave, you’ll never get to go to Disney World, where that boy was struck and killed by a bus!
Obviously, that’s an absurd way to motivate my child. If I were truly wanting to emphasize the possibility of his being excluded from Disney World, the last thing I would do would be to mention a terrible thing that happened there.

What I would say is something like similar to one of these statements:
  • …where Dreams Come True
  • …where all of your friends went
  • …where you get to ride on Space Mountain

Isn’t that clear?

To be continued...
 
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An interesting exegetical article on 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (Part 4)

If Paul wanted to emphasize beauty of God’s presence, it is counterproductive for him to allude to an Old Testament passage where God is depicted as a fearful and terror-inducing agent of judgment.

Fleeing from Judgment
Clearly, this passage is describing a scenario when the Lord comes down in judgment. The images described concentrate on the majesty and terror of the Lord during this approach, and the utter fear of those who will be subject to his judgment.

However, this passage ends before we find out what happens. Essentially all this passage says is that God will approach and men will try to hide. The ultimate result is left for a later resolution.

Paul starts out in very similar manner, when he says this:
  • 2Th 1:7-8 …This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (Christian Standard Bible)
Unlike Isaiah, however, Paul does not leave it there. He goes to the end of the story, and clearly tells us what will happen to these proud men once they are apprehended:
  • 2Th 1:9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious strength. (Christian Standard Bible)
They will suffer a destruction that will never be reversed.

The supporters of eternal torment seem to assert that these passages are describing the same elements of the final judgment. To hear them tell it, the final day of judgment will be similar to God’s entrance into a room infested with cockroaches. He will flip on the great glory of his eternal light and then watch with glee as unbelievers scurry away into whatever crevices they might find in God’s great thrown room. And then, God will be content to just let them spend eternity in those hiding place, while he proceeds to party with his elect.

Obviously, I’m being a little silly with my illustration, but it’s not far from the truth of what some seem to be claiming. Isaiah describes men who find caves and holes where they try to hide from God. At the final judgment day, no hiding place will be available to them, and they will be subject to the full fury of God’s wrath – his consuming fire. The fact that would wish to hide from God tells us nothing about what their fate will actually be.

Bible Translation Errors
Let me address one other element from the context of this verse which provides significant clues as to what Paul intended. Imagine you read this sentence:
  • Tomorrow, Jim will suffer ten hours of solitary confinement
Do you find anything illogical in that sentence? I don’t. It makes perfect sense. But now consider this sentence:
  • Tomorrow, Jim will suffer 48 hours of solitary confinement.
That one doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s not possible to suffer 48 hours of anything in a single day. If we did read that sentence, we would probably conclude that there was a typo, or that it was just sloppy writing. Or maybe Jim will be sentenced to 48 hours of solitary confinement tomorrow, or Jim will begin 48 hours of solitary confinement. One of those explanations must be true, because the sentence is logically impossible as it stands.

Now, read this quote from the NASB, with a few words omitted:
  • These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord… on that day.
By looking at the II Thessalonians 1:10, the verse immediately following the one in question, we see that these events that Paul is describing will happen in one day. This statement by Paul is very similar in structure to the sentence I made up about solitary confinement. If you assume that ‘eternal destruction’ means ‘an eternal duration of ruined existence’ then you have a logical contradiction. It is not possible to suffer ‘an eternal duration of ruined existence’ in one day, but that is what the NASB translation asserts.

The translators of the NIV seem to have noticed this contradiction. (The NIV belongs to that set of translations that tends to support eternal separation from God.) You can examine the way they resolved the contradiction by reading their translation here:
  • They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
By adding the word ‘and’ plus the verb ‘shut out’, they solve the problem. Since it is logically possible to be ‘shut out’ on a single day, this translation avoids the logical inconsistency that exists in the NASB translation.

But wait a minute. Are translators supposed to insert words into their translations? Of course not. There is neither logical nor grammatical necessity for inserting any words into that passage. This insertion is an egregious error and I am dumbfounded by the fact that they chose to insert 'and shut out' into this verse.

Let me illustrate just how egregious this is. Most of you are probably aware that there were arguments in the early church about the importance of circumcision. Some argued that Christians must continue to be circumcised even after Jesus came. Imagine that some from the circumcision group reasoned this way:

We are sure that Jesus agrees with us on this. Jesus believed in the crucial importance of circumcision and considered it a necessary act of true faith. Belief and circumcision are inseparable. Therefore, we can be sure that whenever Jesus spoke of believing, he was also implying that a man must also be circumcised. Given that truth, John 3:16 should properly be translated as follows:
  • For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him and is circumcised should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There you have it! Proof from the lips of Jesus himself that circumcision is required for salvation.

Of course, this translation is absurd. Translators can’t just insert words into verses to make them line up with their own beliefs. John 3:16 might be the most famous verse in the entire Bible, so it is especially jarring when words are inserted. But my hypothetical insertion there is almost exactly the same as what was done by the translators of the NIV in translating II Thessalonians. They inserted the word ‘and’ plus a verb into the sentence and in so doing, made a dramatic alteration to the meaning of the verse. There would be almost no limit to the alteration of Scripture that would be possible if translators were willing to insert the word ‘and’ plus a verb into any passage.

As I close this essay, I want to address one more topic. I want you to get a clear glimpse of the way in which some people argue for their belief in eternal torment.

InterVarsity Press published a book entitled Two Views of Hell. In this book, Edward Fudge argues the annihilationist position and Robert Peterson argues the position for eternal torment. In this book, Dr. Peterson deals at length with II Thessalonians 1:9. As I understand it, Dr. Peterson is very knowledgeable about the Greek language. He chose to use the NIV translation for his analysis of this passage. Not only did he use the NIV, but he emphasized repeatedly that unbelievers were to be ‘shut out’ from the presence of God. In a section of this paperback book less than four pages long, Peterson refers to the phrase “and shut out” six different times.

His argument is relying extensively on the very portion of the translation that was inserted into the text.
I’m not claiming that believers in eternal torment are the only ones who employ these strategies, but I have certainly read many unsound arguments in support of this position. Don’t be persuaded to believe something just because a person who is reputed to be a biblical scholar makes an argument. Investigate closely what is being said.

Wrapping up, is it likely that Paul meant to express in II Thessalonians 1:9 his belief in the eternal conscious separation and torment of unbelievers? That conclusion is almost impossible to support, for these reasons:
  • Paul’s used OLETHROS in two other places to expresses the cessation of existence, so using it in a different way here would be strange
  • Plato's the use of the word OLETHROS to express the soul's total dissolution would have established a clear precedence for using that word. It is very like that Paul understood that precedence and relied upon it.
  • If it difficult to imagine that the consuming fire of God's presence will only ruin men at the final judgment.
  • Paul uses APO in 104 other passages and not once does it express the notion of separation on its own.
  • Nothing in the context of this passage expresses the notion of separation from God.
  • Paul's reference to Isaiah 2:10-22 only emphasizes the terrible nature of God's judgment and would be totally counterproductive as a way to illustrate the desirable qualities of God, from which unbelievers will be excluded.
  • The practice of inserting words into this passage in order to convey the notion of separation is obviously highly questionable.
Instead, the much more obvious and straight-forward conclusion should be embraced. This passage makes a strong and clear statement that unbelievers will be annihilated on the day of judgment. (Source)

.................

Dear @FineLinen you really need to get your facts right before posting that stuff in context to our discussion.

So what is the short version of all the above? As I am sure only the dedicated and interested will read it....

Well besides addressing your claims to the post by Dr Marvin which I mainly agree with and was not really relevant to my earlier post, it is to show that I can also post what I believe is scripture exegesis here in the OP from outside sources but that tends to do away with discussion and showing the same proofs from the scriptures to which I was hoping to have the OP stay.

I could have quite as easily have said in a summarised version of all the above with scripture...

"HELL IS NOT ETERNAL NEITHER IS THE PUNISHMENT OF DESTRUCTION BUT DESTRUCTION ONCE IT HAPPENS IS INDEED ETERNAL." Which is what those posts prove above.

It would have been much easier for a friendly discussion don't you think to state the above and provide a few scriptures rather than post info from another website?

The GREEK alone in the second post above proves that the DESTRUCTION is eternal not the process in context of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. Go and look at the Koine Greek scan again of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9..

"Who the penalty shall suffer (context to the wicked and God's vengence) destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength" (see below scanned image)

7598291.png


Hope this is helpful
 
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FineLinen

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"HELL IS NOT ETERNAL NEITHER IS THE PUNISHMENT OF DESTRUCTION BUT DESTRUCTION ONCE IT HAPPENS IS INDEED ETERNAL." Which is what those posts prove above.

The GREEK alone in the first post proves that the DESTRUCTION is eternal not the process in context of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. Go and look at the Koine Greek scan again of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9..

"Who the penalty shall suffer (context to the wicked and God's vengence) destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength" (see below scanned image)

7598291.png


Hope this is helpful

There are exactly 2 (two) passages of Canon using the word aidios, both referring to the Lord who is eternal. There is nothing in this universe of ours that is aidios!

Aionios is everlasting, but not a time word, rather a word defining a quality of life & judgement. St. John kept it simple.....

"This IS zoe aionios that we may know You..."

Even if God was to utterly annihilate someone, He has the power to restore as the God of UN (limited)!
 
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FineLinen

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"Instead, the much more obvious and straight-forward conclusion should be embraced. This passage makes a strong and clear statement that unbelievers will be annihilated on the day of judgment."

NONSENSE !

There is no such animals as everlasting torment or everlasting annihilation !

Our two words for today = ta pavnte

From Him the all comes, thru Him the all exists, in Him the all ends.
 
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By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

"In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him." -C.S. Lewis
 
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There are exactly 2 (two) passages of Canon using the word aidios, both referring to the Lord who is eternal. There is nothing in this universe of ours that is aidios!

Aionios is everlasting, but not a time word, rather a word defining a quality of life & judgement. St. John kept it simple.....

"This IS zoe aionios that we may know You..."

Even if God was to utterly annihilate someone, He has the power to restore as the God of UN (limited)!

You did not read the post did you dear Fine. I said the same thing. It is the DESTRUCTION that is eternal not the process. (no eternal burning) to aionos
 
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Even if God was to utterly annihilate someone, He has the power to restore as the God of UN (limited)!

True, but the problem you and your friends are facing is that you have no scripture that says that God gives eternal life to the wicked after the second coming of Jesus now do you dear friend? Yet God's Word is very clear what happens to the wicked after the second coming.
 
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By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

"In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him." -C.S. Lewis

Yet here you still are with no scripture that says that the wicked will receive everlasting life after the second coming. Something to pray about don't you think?
 
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ClementofA

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True, but the problem you and your friends are facing is that you have no scripture that says that God gives eternal life to the wicked after the second coming of Jesus now do you dear friend? Yet God's Word is very clear what happens to the wicked after the second coming.

Already addressed:


Yet here you still are thinking that the wicked get a free pass to Heaven which is not biblical

Where has any Christian universalist here said "the wicked get a free pass to Heaven"?

Do you believe you have to work your way to heaven?

Does your belief in endless annihilationism help you follow Jesus?

Why did you start this thread?

and neither do you have any scripture to show that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming?

We do: Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; Col.1:16-20; Phil.2:9-11.

Does it not concern you that you have no scripture for your teachings and this opinion is the opposite of what the scriptures teach from God's Word?

Do you think that - we - think we "have no scripture for (our) teachings"?

Do you consider your interpretation of Scripture infallible?

Can you - prove - from the context of the verses i gave above that they support your opinion of bible interpretation?

We need to challenge ourselves to what we believe

Then why don't you address the post i keep asking you to answer?

Ignoring other's points and responses is no way to win a debate in the eyes of the onlookers of this thread. Let alone continual stubborn misrepresentations of universalist beliefs.

The wicked according to the scriptures are destroyed after the second coming.

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol and later recover. So what if the wicked are "destroyed". What Love Omnipotent destroys He can restore. Jesus said, Destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up (Jn.2:19, paraphrase). King Neb's soul was so destroyed by the Saviour of all mankind that he ate grass like an animal for 7 years until God restored him by destroying his destruction. So can you not see that the destruction of which you speak is no - proof - for the endless annihilation Hitler job on anyone. And why would Love Crucified want to sadistically torment (Rev.14:11; 20:10) anyone He intended to blot out of existence for eternity? Your theology makes - no - sense!

There is no more second chances at this time dear friend.

Perhaps next time you say that you should provide a scripture that says "There is no more second chances". Maybe add with it an explanation why the Love of the Omnipotent expired like a carton of milk.

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers
 
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Hello dear Fine. The first part of your cut and paste from another website is irrelavant to my post to you and does not effect anything from the scriptures that has been shared with you as I agree that the context of ETERNAL "aeon" here is to "DESTRUCTION" G3639: ὀλέθριος, ὀλέθριον (olethron) in 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and destruction does not happen forever as in eternal burning hell, but the destruction when it happens is eternal.

I agree that the scripture is not saying that the process of being destroyed is forever or eternal, which is the teachings of ECT which is not biblical. So the first 3/4 of your post above on aion or aionion is irrelavant to our discussion as I do not believe in eternal buring hell.

The application of the GREEK however is to context and application to the scriptures so let's start off with the word meaning before looking at the context to which it is applied.

As to the meaning and context of "aeon" (eternal) to "destruction" (olethron), the actual GREEK reads like this...

"Who the penalty shall suffer (context to the wicked and God's vengence) destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength" (a scanned image is provided below)

The meaning of destruction as shown in the Greek is that the destruction is eternal not the process with further context to God's "vengence on the wicked" *2 THESSALONIANS 1:8.

The Greek word meaning of destruction being...

BDAG GREEK meaning of "destruction" ὀλέθριος, ὀλέθριον (olethron) ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ (ὄλλυμι ‘destroy’; Hom.+; SIG 527, 82 [c. 220 B.C.]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX; PsSol 8:1; TestReub 4:6; 6:3; Philo; Jos., Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; SibOr 3, 327; 348) ① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring (hostile spirits work ἐπʼ ὀλέθρῳ τοῦ γένους τῶν ἀνθρώπων Orig., C. Cels. 8, 54, 32): ἔρχεταί τινι ὄλ. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26). αἰφνίδιος αὐτοῖς ἐφίσταται ὄλ. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3. βυθίζειν τινὰ εἰς ὄλ. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9. ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9 (s. ὀλέθριος).

To be continued...

I already addressed this passage in a post to you in this thread.

Still waiting for your detailed reply:

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10
[6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU;
[7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS,
[8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST:
[9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;
[10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY.

2 Thess.1:[9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;

What's the difference between destruction and everlasting destruction?

The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

Перевод ὄλεθρος с греческого на все языки

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5). He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Here we see destruction was temporary:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)



Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


post 710 on April 30 this thread
 
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"GOD OUR SAVIOR, WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, FOR THERE IS ONE GOD." (1 Tim. 2: 3-4)

None can hinder His doing as He wills.

His will is that all should be saved.

St. Paul directs thanksgiving and prayer to be offered for all men on the express ground that God wills the salvation of all.

Gods one eternal (irresistible) purpose = He wills the salvation of all mankind.

"GOD THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE." (1 Tim. 4:10)

This passage becomes clear the moment we reflect on God's plan by which the elect - those who believe - are first saved, and then become the means, here or in the ages yet to come, of saving all men.
 
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Serious failure on the part of the Creator of all ? ?

“As an escape from the doctrine of eternal torment, I at first embraced the doctrine of annihilation for the wicked, and for a little while tried to comfort myself with the belief that this life ended all for them. But the more I thought of it, the more it seemed to me that it would be a confession of serious failure on the part of the Creator, if He could find no way out of the problem of His creation, but to annihilate the creatures whom He had created.

One day a revelation came to me that vindicated God, and settled the whole problem forever. I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that ‘as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.’

As was the first, even so was the second. The ‘all’ in one case could not in fairness mean less than the all in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease. The salvation must be as universal as the fall.

I saw this that day on the tram-car on Market Street, Philadelphia – not only thought it, or hoped it – but knew it.

It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had a questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed – somewhere and somehow God was going to make everything right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.” -Hannah W. Smith- (My unexpected discovery)
 
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What is the meaning of propitiation?

What it is not = the appeasing of an angry deity.

Our word for today is hilaskomai.

The ghastly idea of propitiating an angry deity was used by the Greeks in making the gods propitious & something to be earned first. It is foreign in the N.T. & Septuagint Scriptures!

Hilaskomai actually means reconciliation, a covering as in the words kaphar & kopher, IOW our Father Abba’s Mercy Seat.

His love & grace reaching out to enfold us into Himself.

“He is the at-one-ment for our sins & NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the whole world.”

Hilasmos = atonement

We have a Priest-Friend in the Presence of Abba. He has solved the sin problem for good, not only ours, but the sins of the whole/pas world.

Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos!
 
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"GOD OUR SAVIOR, WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, FOR THERE IS ONE GOD." (1 Tim. 2: 3-4)

Amen to that dear Fine. To bad not all will choose the gift of God's dear son to be saved.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 [6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU; [7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, [8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: [9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING (G166 αἰώνιος) DESTRUCTION (G3639 ὄλεθρος) FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER; [10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY.
HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY (G4442 πῦρ) INDIGNATION (G2205 ζῆλος) WHICH SHALL DEVOUR (G2068 ἐσθίω) THE ADVERSARIES (G5227 ὑπεναντίος)

"GOD THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE." (1 Tim. 4:10)

This passage becomes clear the moment we reflect on God's plan by which the elect - those who believe - are first saved, and then become the means, here or in the ages yet to come, of saving all men.

Indeed dear Fine. JESUS is the Saviour of all men. "especially" is emphasis to those who "believe". Too bad not all men will choose to be saved. Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word (scripture suport here linked). Those who do not believe according to the scriptures reject the gift of God's dear son and are the wicked and lost who count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God's Grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39; ROMANS 6:23. Rejecting God's Grace they reject God and His gift of salvation and eternal life and are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. (see also, *REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 21:7; HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 21:8; REVELATION 22:11-12; REVELATION 22:14-15)

Hope this helps dear friend.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Serious failure on the part of the Creator of all ? ?

“As an escape from the doctrine of eternal torment, I at first embraced the doctrine of annihilation for the wicked, and for a little while tried to comfort myself with the belief that this life ended all for them. But the more I thought of it, the more it seemed to me that it would be a confession of serious failure on the part of the Creator, if He could find no way out of the problem of His creation, but to annihilate the creatures whom He had created.

One day a revelation came to me that vindicated God, and settled the whole problem forever. I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that ‘as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.’

As was the first, even so was the second. The ‘all’ in one case could not in fairness mean less than the all in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease. The salvation must be as universal as the fall.

I saw this that day on the tram-car on Market Street, Philadelphia – not only thought it, or hoped it – but knew it.

It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had a questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed – somewhere and somehow God was going to make everything right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.” -Hannah W. Smith- (My unexpected discovery)

No failure dear friend. All I see is God's love. But no one can see this without seeing the cross which revleals God's dear son and the love he has for all mankind. No one can see God's love without seeing God's justice and judgement for sin and God's sacrifice to save the sinner. UNIVERSALISM closes the eyes so they are not opened to see God's gift of grace.

May you receive Gods Word and be blessed dear friend.
 
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