Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

ClementofA said:

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Der Alte said:

The ubiquitous quote from the high priestess of UR-ism.
Ramelli says that God will do all these things for the unrighteous, unrepentant after death.

"the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, removing every sense of evil returned to a state of soundness and purity." ​

If God is going to do all this after the unrighteous die and are punished for some period of time why doesn't God do that while they are still alive and so save them from punishment?

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Major1 said:

That is not correct now is it.

You gave YOUR opinon but that is all it was and I for one do not accept it as truth.

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ClementofA said:

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Clement said:

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Major1 said:

Butch. Thank you for your concerns. Actually you are 100% correct when you called me "Mr. Very Confident" and I thank you for doing that publicly!!!

I am completely and totally confident in the Word of God!!!!!

John 17:17......
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

The next time Jesus Comes is at The Rapture which is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.........
" Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

John 14:1-3 .......
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

THE RAPTURE CAME HAPPEN AT ANY MOMENT.

Revelation 3:3 .....
"Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."

The Bible truth is that there is NO MENTION of the Church in the Revelation.

Why will there be a Rapture??????????

1 Thessalonians 5:9 .......
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Revelation 3:10......
" Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

Now if you choose to NOT believe that the 1000 year rule of Christ then so be it. There is no reason to argue that with me as I did not write it in the Bible, I just read it.


Revelation 20:2-3
"And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time."

Revelation 20:7
"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,"

Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Revelation 20:4-5..........
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."

Now I must ask you, what other way could God have written those Scriptures that would allow you to better understand the word "ONE THOUSAND YEARS".

Second question would than have to be.....what is YOUR source of information or higher learning that has allowed YOU to change the meaning of the words "ONE THOUSAND YEARS".

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ClementofA said:

What specifically do you think was not correct?

You keep linking the Calvinist site GotQuestions. Are you a Calvinist?

"The Dark Side of Calvinism: The Calvinist Caste System (CALVARY CHAPEL ON CALVINISM) (Volume 2)"

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Calvinism-Calvinist-CALVINISM/dp/1931667888

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agapelove said:

A day is like a thousand years to the Lord. According to evolution the world was not created in 7,000 years! I have also shown you previous evidence of how the number "thousand" is used in the Bible-- to represent divine magnitude. I hope you do not also take the number 144,000 literally because in the very same chapter they are described as "numberless; a great multitude that no one could count" (Rev. 7:9). For someone who has "studied extensively" on this topic you are making the very amateur mistake of reading into Revelations LITERALLY.

You argue for a "secret rapture" but in the passage that YOU quoted Jesus tells us He will come with a "loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God." Why warn the saints about tribulation if Jesus will rapture them up from it anyway? John introduces himself in Rev 1 as the church's "brother and partner in the tribulation". Jesus did not 'rapture' the martyrs from the destruction in 70AD and he will not 'rapture' any believers before Satan is loosed at the end of the millennia. Instead he tells us to "remain steadfast under trial, suffer a little while, be patient in tribulation, endure it, be constant in prayer, rejoice in our sufferings, have peace, count it all joy, and TRUST" (James 1:12, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 12:12, John 16:33, James 1:2, Romans 5:3, Proverbs 3:5, Philippians 4:6).

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

The NT prophecies are VERY CLEAR what will take place at Jesus' coming (the end of sin, corruption, death, the resurrection, judgment, and coming of the New Heavens and New Earth), but you wish to place a 1,000 YEAR GAP (where sin and death are rampant) between his coming and the end of all things.

There are only TWO PHASES of the Kingdom of God - the present one which is spiritual (anyone can partake through faith), and the coming one which is physical (NHNE), but somehow you have twisted scripture to give us three stages of the Kingdom of God (Church Era, Millennia, New Heavens & New Earth). The "Church Era" is not even a biblical term!!! It is one that the dispensationalists MADE UP.

I am not arguing that the 1,000 reign of Christ does not exist but rather that it is not a literal future earthly reign but it is a heavenly spiritual reign that began AT HIS ASCENSION (Matthew 3:2, Psalm 110:1, Hebrews 1:3, Ephesians 1:20-21, 1 Peter 1:21, Matthew 10:7, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Corinthians 15:25-26, Matthew 28:18, James 4:12, etc etc etc) The Gospels, the Acts, AND the Epistles all affirm this, but I am sure you have heard all these arguments before already. If, despite all of that, you still think it is inappropriate to say Jesus is presently reigning as Messiah then that is really your loss. I urge you, friend, to submit to the High King in Heaven.

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Major1 said:

I am not reading anything INTO the Revelation. YOU however are rejecting the words already found in the Revlation in 7:5-8...….
"From the tribe of Judah 12, 000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12, 000, from the tribe of Gad 12, 000, 6from the tribe of Asher 12, 000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12, 000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12, 000, 7from the tribe of Simeon 12, 000, from the tribe of Levi 12, 000, from the tribe of Issachar 12, 000, 8from the tribe of Zebulun 12, 000, from the tribe of Joseph 12, 000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12, 000."

Now, if God did not mean 144,000---- 12 K from each tribe of Jews, why in the world would He have said it????

These 12 tribes are Israelites, not Jehovah Witnesses or British Israelites. Nor do these tribes refer to the church.

You probably know that Jehovah Witnesses originally claimed that the 144,000 were people of their religion. That interpretation became a problem when their numbers outgrew 144,000. They juggled their interpretation to adjust to their changing reality. They then said that there was an earthly band of 144,000, then they claimed there was an additional heavenly band. That would now allow for 288,000 people. Since their numbers have gone beyond 288,000, they now claim a third category — “the servant band.” People today who become Jehovah Witnesses can join at the servant level.

You see, when you reject the clear Word of God at first, it becomes easier and easier to do.

YES. I believe exactly what the Scriptures actually do say. There will be 144,000 converted Jewish MEN who will then spread the gospel all over the world for the next 7 years leading those Gentile who have not heard the gospel to be saved.

Jesus is NOT ruling on the earth today my friend. He is seated in heaven at the right hand of God as our intercessor! READ THE BOOK!

Satan is the prince of the power of the air today.

YES.....the 1000 year rule of Christ is literal. Again, what credentials do you posses that allow you to change the written Word of God??

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Major1 said:

I have no idea where you get your info but that web site is not a Calvin web site. It is nondenominational, and conservative and you do not like it because it does not agree with your false teaching which is exactly why I keep using it.

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1. Will not the devil and all his works be destroyed? -- (Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8)
2. Will not death, the last enemy, be swallowed up in victory and destroyed? -- (Isa. 25:6-8; 1 Cor. 15:26-54)

Major1 said:

I have no idea where you get your info but that web site is not a Calvin web site. It is nondenominational, and conservative and you do not like it because it does not agree with your false teaching which is exactly why I keep using it.

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Major1 said:

Actually I am nothing but a born again believer in Christ who believes that the Bible is the Word of God.

"Got Questions" is actually a Christian apologetics web site. It is Protestant, evangelical, theologically conservative, and non-denominational. The CEO is educated at Dallas Theological Seminary of which I am also an attendee.

The only reason you would attack it is that it and me are diputing your unbiblical opinions.

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Major1 said:

It supports Bible doctrine and if it is anything at all it would be Baptist.

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Der Alte said:

In other words you have no answer for my question.

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Der Alte said:

"the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, removing every sense of evil returned to a state of soundness and purity." ​

If Love, Ominpotent is so omnipotent why doesn't He change people's heart and minds in this life? Or is Love, Omnipotent only omnipotent after death? Love, Omionpotent must want people to sin so He can punish them when He could have prevented them from sinning in the first place.

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agapelove said:

Sir. Please show me the verse where it says Jesus will reign on Earth for 1,000 years.

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

1. Where are these thrones?
2. How can SOULS reign with Christ on earth?
3. How were the martyrs beheaded if they were supposedly raptured pre-trib?
4. What does it mean to "be made alive in Christ"?
5. What is the FIRST RESURRECTION?

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FineLinen said:

Big Guy: au contraire, you keep using it for one reason, your limited grasp of the Unlimited One requires zero expansion into Him.

"Clem" has posted 213 questions. Of course you have not bothered to even take a glance, let alone spend anytime in contemplation.

How does your powerful resource lol (Got Questions) answer the following?

1. Will not the devil and all his works be destroyed? -- (Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8)
2. Will not death, the last enemy, be swallowed up in victory and destroyed? -- (Isa. 25:6-8; 1 Cor. 15:26-54)

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ClementofA said:

We've already covered this:



So evidently you are not aware that it supports Calvinist doctrines such as, for example:

"Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – election is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith.

What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism? | GotQuestions.org


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There are plenty of Baptists who are Calvinists & i already showed you they support Calvinist doctrines. So your accusation was false.

Are you a Calvinist? Yes or no?

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Major1 said:

LOL!!!! Are you kidding me????

We have covered everything in this thread about 10 times over.

Affirming a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ is strictly a textual interpretation of Revelation 20:6,
“…but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

In this view, Jesus Christ ushers in a global theocracy from the heart of Jerusalem, ending with the final rebellion, judgment and new creation of heaven and earth.

1. That the phrase, " “and judgment was given unto them.” says to me that it is a heavenly scene.

2. Because they are believers who will have glorified bodies.

3. "Martyrs" means that they lost their lives during the Tribulation peroid. The Church is not sceen in the Revelation as it was Raptured.

4. Born again.

5. The Rapture.

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Major1 said:

1. YES. When are become BORN AGAIN we have destroyed what Satan wants to do.

2. YES. For all who call upon the Lord Jesus Christ and are born again.

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1. Will not the devil and all his works be destroyed? -- (Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8)
2. Will not death, the last enemy, be swallowed up in victory and destroyed? -- (Isa. 25:6-8; 1 Cor. 15:26-54)

Major1 said:

Read Hebrews 12:1-2 AFTER you have read Hebrews 11. If that does not help you understand, then there is nothing I can do for you. Actually this is the 2nd time I have explained this to you.

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Major1 said:

I am sorry, but that is what I believe the Scriptures tell us. A pre-tribulation rapture is the only position that allows the Scriptures', both Old and New teat. to fit perfectly together.

To deny premillennialism is to deny the consistent application of the literal historical-grammatical interpretation of the Bible. For the non-premill view fails because:
1) It takes parts of the Bible literally but not all (e.g., prophecy);
2) It takes part of the prophets literally (First Advent) but not all of the Second Advent texts;
3) It takes part of the Gospels literally, namely, Christ’s death and resurrection (Matt. 26-28) but not all of Jesus’ predictions made in the Gospels, namely, His statements about His Second Coming (Matt. 19:28; Matt. 24-25); 4);
4) It takes part of a verse literally but not the rest. When quoting Isaiah Jesus stopped in the middle of a sentence and pronounced it literally fulfilled (in His First Coming), but the rest of the verse speaks of His Second Coming which must be taken literally too (cf. Isa. 61:1-2 cf. Luke 4:18-21); 5)
5) It takes one resurrection literally but not the other (Rev. 20:5-6; John 5:28-29). But the two are listed together in the same texts. Both are said to involve people coming out of graves (Jn. 5:25-28) where dead bodies reside.
The Importance of Premillennialism – NORMAN GEISLER

What you are proposing is exactly what the Jehovah Witnesses believe. Are you aware of that????

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ClementofA said:

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Der Alte said:

Clement of Alexandria The Second Epistle of Clement. Chap. IV.
Let us, then, not only call Him Lord, for that will not save us. For He saith, “Not every one” that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall be saved, but he that worketh righteousness.”227
Chap V
Jesus said unto Peter, “The lambs have no cause after they are dead to fear232 the wolves; and in like manner, fear not ye them that kill you, and can do nothing more unto you; but fear Him who, after you are dead, has power over both soul and body to cast them into hell-fire.” (Mat_10:28; Luk_12:4, Luk_12:5)
Chap VI
For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments. For thus also saith the Scripture in Ezekiel, “If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity.” (Eze_14:14, Eze_14:20) Now, if men so eminently righteous are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children, how239 can we hope to enter into the royal residence240 of God unless we keep our baptism holy and undefiled? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found possessed of works of holiness and righteousness?
Chap VIIWhat then think ye? If one does anything unseemly in the incorruptible contest, what shall he have to bear? For of those who do not preserve the seal246 [unbroken], [the Scripture] saith, “Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.” (Isa_66:24)
Chap VIII
For as the potter, if he make a vessel, and it be distorted or broken in his hands, fashions it over again; but if he have before this cast it into the furnace of fire, can no longer find any help for it: so let us also, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil deeds we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet an opportunity of repentance. For after we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will there belong to us.
Chap XVII
This means the day of His appearing, when He will come and redeem us - each one according to his works. And the unbelievers will see His glory and might, and, when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprise, saying, “Woe to us, because Thou wast, and we knew not and believed not and obeyed not the elders (Isa_66:18) who show us plainly of our salvation.” And “their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle unto all flesh.”…
The righteous, having succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul, whenever they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in fire unquenchable, will give glory to their God and say, “There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart.”

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