Who Goes To Hell?
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Compare:
1 Cor.5: 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesusa and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord.b
1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme
Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).
For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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Same old copy/paste previously refuted, which does not specifically address my post. If I want to read and respond to the scribblings at tentmaker or any other UR website I will go there. Here I prefer to have a discussion with someone who can present his/her own thoughts without huge chunks of copy/paste.
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I believe it did address your post which was nothing but a bunch of out of context scripture texts with no point made or any comments by you.
And BTW my post was a totally new post, not some "old copy/paste".
Then perhaps instead of posting nothing but scripture verses, as you did, you will in the future take your own advice & post your own thoughts, eh?
And if you had read my post you would have realized that i did, unlike your post, present my "own thoughts".
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The final hell is the last word in criminal justice. But before people are sent there, they must first stand trial at the great white throne event depicted Rev 20:11-15; and it is going to be a spectacle of horror beyond words.
In my opinion, it's a fool who would take their chances in court with the Bible's God. His process is very thorough with no plea bargaining nor leniency for first time offenders; no mitigating circumstances; no time off for good behavior nor possibility of parole-- the scales of justice have to balance: eye for eye, tooth for tooth, bone for bone, skin for skin, injustice for injustice, abuse for abuse, burning for burning, bruise for bruise, dollar for dollar, curse for curse, etc: even every thoughtless word that men speak will be weighed in the balances; not just their serious words.
● Matt 12:36-37 . .But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every idle word they have spoken. If you cannot be adjudged innocent by your words, then by your words you will be condemned.
The Bible sometimes labels justice as recompense; which Webster's defines as: an equivalent, or a return, for something done, suffered, or given; viz: compensation.
People will even be recompensed for all the things they did in private when they thought no one was looking.
● Heb 4:12-13 . .For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Every transgression will receive a fair and equitable amount of retribution.
● Heb 2:1-3 . .We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?
Let me give you a rough idea of just how bad it's really going to be.
Supposing the penalty for a lie is 5 lashes and the accused has 200 counts of lying against them. That means that each count will receive 5 lashes, adding up to 1,000 lashes for those 200 lies. But that's only the beginning.
Suppose the penalty for using God's name in profanity is 30 lashes, and that same offender's lifetime accumulation is 500 counts of blasphemy; which isn't an unreasonable number of counts for someone who lived to be sixty or seventy. They would be given 30 lashes for each of those 500 counts; adding up to 15,000 lashes on top of the 1,000 they already received for 200 lies.
But then supposing the penalty for defamation of character is 15 lashes and that same offender, over the years-- via gossip, demeaning comments, arbitrary accusations, rumor mongering, kangaroo-court convictions, and thoughtless remarks --impugned innocent reputations a total of 85 times. They would receive 15 lashes for each count, adding up to a total of 1,275 lashes. So then, for just those three crimes alone, that one offender would be given a grand total of 17,275 lashes.
It gets worse. Offenders who knew at the time that what they were doing was wrong, will be punished much more severely than those who did so uninformed.
● Luke 12:47-48 . . And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
In reality then, long life can be a curse rather than a blessing, and for some people, it would have been far better if they had died as a child than to face God as a senior citizen. By the time the condemned are carried out to be discarded still alive into the reservoir of flaming liquid spoken of in Rev 20:11-15, they will look as though they were dragged through a field of concertina wire and then dropped into a cotton gin.
It's very likely then that many will not only have their flesh flayed open; but suffer a number of broken bones, paralysis, blindness, deafness, and loss of their capacity to speak intelligibly; because for some offenses, it takes way more than a whipping to set things right. Earthly justice demands eye for eye and tooth for tooth. Heaven only knows what Divine justice demands.
For example, lies generate repercussions, which will be taken into consideration during the punishment phase of the liar's trial; so that they will not only be punished for the act of telling lies, but also for the effects of those lies.
Same with defamation of character. One's reputation-- their good name --once tarnished, effects their quality of life for years to come. That can't be ignored and swept under the rug.
And blaspheme too. Denigrating the Bible God's name in profanity has an influence upon those who hear it; perhaps even egging them on to take up the habit of blaspheme themselves when normally they wouldn't if left on their own. Many a parent is going to pay for teaching their own children how to cuss.
Murderers may well have to pay somehow not only for the lives they take, but also for the loss of their victim's future too.
_
The final hell is the last word in criminal justice. But before people are sent there, they must first stand trial at the great white throne event depicted Rev 20:11-15; and it is going to be a spectacle of horror beyond words.
In my opinion, it's a fool who would take their chances in court with the Bible's God. His process is very thorough with no plea bargaining nor leniency for first time offenders; no mitigating circumstances; no time off for good behavior nor possibility of parole-- the scales of justice have to balance: eye for eye, tooth for tooth, bone for bone, skin for skin, injustice for injustice, abuse for abuse, burning for burning, bruise for bruise, dollar for dollar, curse for curse, etc: even every thoughtless word that men speak will be weighed in the balances; not just their serious words.
● Matt 12:36-37 . .But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every idle word they have spoken. If you cannot be adjudged innocent by your words, then by your words you will be condemned.
The Bible sometimes labels justice as recompense; which Webster's defines as: an equivalent, or a return, for something done, suffered, or given; viz: compensation.
People will even be recompensed for all the things they did in private when they thought no one was looking.
● Heb 4:12-13 . .For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Every transgression will receive a fair and equitable amount of retribution.
● Heb 2:1-3 . .We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?
Let me give you a rough idea of just how bad it's really going to be.
Supposing the penalty for a lie is 5 lashes and the accused has 200 counts of lying against them. That means that each count will receive 5 lashes, adding up to 1,000 lashes for those 200 lies. But that's only the beginning.
Suppose the penalty for using God's name in profanity is 30 lashes, and that same offender's lifetime accumulation is 500 counts of blasphemy; which isn't an unreasonable number of counts for someone who lived to be sixty or seventy. They would be given 30 lashes for each of those 500 counts; adding up to 15,000 lashes on top of the 1,000 they already received for 200 lies.
But then supposing the penalty for defamation of character is 15 lashes and that same offender, over the years-- via gossip, demeaning comments, arbitrary accusations, rumor mongering, kangaroo-court convictions, and thoughtless remarks --impugned innocent reputations a total of 85 times. They would receive 15 lashes for each count, adding up to a total of 1,275 lashes. So then, for just those three crimes alone, that one offender would be given a grand total of 17,275 lashes.
It gets worse. Offenders who knew at the time that what they were doing was wrong, will be punished much more severely than those who did so uninformed.
● Luke 12:47-48 . . And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
In reality then, long life can be a curse rather than a blessing, and for some people, it would have been far better if they had died as a child than to face God as a senior citizen. By the time the condemned are carried out to be discarded still alive into the reservoir of flaming liquid spoken of in Rev 20:11-15, they will look as though they were dragged through a field of concertina wire and then dropped into a cotton gin.
It's very likely then that many will not only have their flesh flayed open; but suffer a number of broken bones, paralysis, blindness, deafness, and loss of their capacity to speak intelligibly; because for some offenses, it takes way more than a whipping to set things right. Earthly justice demands eye for eye and tooth for tooth. Heaven only knows what Divine justice demands.
For example, lies generate repercussions, which will be taken into consideration during the punishment phase of the liar's trial; so that they will not only be punished for the act of telling lies, but also for the effects of those lies.
Same with defamation of character. One's reputation-- their good name --once tarnished, effects their quality of life for years to come. That can't be ignored and swept under the rug.
And blaspheme too. Denigrating the Bible God's name in profanity has an influence upon those who hear it; perhaps even egging them on to take up the habit of blaspheme themselves when normally they wouldn't if left on their own. Many a parent is going to pay for teaching their own children how to cuss.
Murderers may well have to pay somehow not only for the lives they take, but also for the loss of their victim's future too.
_
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There is a big difference between quoting scripture, lexicons, grammars etc as I do and copy/pasting canned arguments from "scholars." Unlike you I do not quote big chunks of unsupported opinions from "scholars."ClementofA said:
e.g.
Why affirm belief in Hell?
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There is a big difference between quoting scripture, lexicons, scholars, ECFs, etc, as I do and you copy/pasting from the Jewish Encyclopedia & other opinions of men - including Jewish myths - that you call "irrefutable".
"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)
Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
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The ordeal that Christ endured on the cross was so brief that it looks like child's play in comparison to the misery of souls in hell. His suffering barely lasted six hours (cf. Mark 15:25, Matt 27:46-50) not even one whole day. People in hell go day, after day, after day, after day, after day, infinitum.
FAQ: But if Christ suffered only six hours, how can he possibly atone for people facing an eternity in Hell?
A: It wasn't his torture that atoned for humanity's sins; it was the loss of his life that did the trick. Christ didn't have to go to the flames himself in order to rescue people from flames; no, he only had to die in accordance with the law of sin and death.
● Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death
Individual human lives are of such low value that the most that anybody could hope to die for is just one sin. In most cases; that leaves a pretty large balance to atone for. In contrast; the value of the life of God's son is such that his death can atone for an infinite number of everybody's sins.
● 1Pet 1:18-20 . . For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.
Peter called the blood of Christ two things: a ransom and precious, meaning it's like rare jewels and metals; very pricey. Nobody else's life is nearly as valuable as Christ's life. Peter would never call regular human life rare and pricey. Ordinary human lives are wholesale: they're cheap as the grass (Isa 40:6-7, 1Pet 1:24) just a dime a dozen and quite useless for redemption purposes.
Christ's life is the only life God will accept for multiple sins: and the alternative is infinite punishment because no amount of limited punishment can ever equal the value of Christ's blood because not only is a life like Christ's rare, but his is the only one like it in existence. (cf. Rom 3:9-20, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22, 1John 3:9)
Serial sinners are up a creek with no paddle because they have but two lives to forfeit for sin-- the life they have now, and the one they'll have later at their resurrection; but unfortunately, one of those lives is ear-marked for Adam's sin so they can't use it to atone for any of their own sins.
And when they're resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; that'll be their last life because according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. And since the Bible's ratio is one life per one sin, then serial sinners will come up short and never have sufficient lives to atone for a lifetime's accumulation of sins.
The dungeons of hell can be compared to a debtor's prison.
● Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
The reason that hell is a debtor's prison is because the only payment for one's sins that God will accept is death. Well; it's death for each sin. So if somebody has say, 200 sins to answer for, they'll only be able to pay for one because according to Dan 12:2 & John 5:28-29 there is but one resurrection allotted per person; not 200.
If absolute justice could be satisfied with torture, then hell's inmates could look forward to a release date. But alas; such isn't to happen because the only "coinage" the Bible's God is in a position to accept in lieu of their own lives is His son's life.
Bottom line: Christ's crucifixion is the final option. Those who refuse to take advantage of it, will cross over to the other side in poverty; with literally no way in hell to pay their debts to God; thus they'll be stuck there.
_
The ordeal that Christ endured on the cross was so brief that it looks like child's play in comparison to the misery of souls in hell. His suffering barely lasted six hours (cf. Mark 15:25, Matt 27:46-50) not even one whole day. People in hell go day, after day, after day, after day, after day, infinitum.
FAQ: But if Christ suffered only six hours, how can he possibly atone for people facing an eternity in Hell?
A: It wasn't his torture that atoned for humanity's sins; it was the loss of his life that did the trick. Christ didn't have to go to the flames himself in order to rescue people from flames; no, he only had to die in accordance with the law of sin and death.
● Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death
Individual human lives are of such low value that the most that anybody could hope to die for is just one sin. In most cases; that leaves a pretty large balance to atone for. In contrast; the value of the life of God's son is such that his death can atone for an infinite number of everybody's sins.
● 1Pet 1:18-20 . . For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.
Peter called the blood of Christ two things: a ransom and precious, meaning it's like rare jewels and metals; very pricey. Nobody else's life is nearly as valuable as Christ's life. Peter would never call regular human life rare and pricey. Ordinary human lives are wholesale: they're cheap as the grass (Isa 40:6-7, 1Pet 1:24) just a dime a dozen and quite useless for redemption purposes.
Christ's life is the only life God will accept for multiple sins: and the alternative is infinite punishment because no amount of limited punishment can ever equal the value of Christ's blood because not only is a life like Christ's rare, but his is the only one like it in existence. (cf. Rom 3:9-20, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22, 1John 3:9)
Serial sinners are up a creek with no paddle because they have but two lives to forfeit for sin-- the life they have now, and the one they'll have later at their resurrection; but unfortunately, one of those lives is ear-marked for Adam's sin so they can't use it to atone for any of their own sins.
And when they're resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; that'll be their last life because according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. And since the Bible's ratio is one life per one sin, then serial sinners will come up short and never have sufficient lives to atone for a lifetime's accumulation of sins.
The dungeons of hell can be compared to a debtor's prison.
● Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
The reason that hell is a debtor's prison is because the only payment for one's sins that God will accept is death. Well; it's death for each sin. So if somebody has say, 200 sins to answer for, they'll only be able to pay for one because according to Dan 12:2 & John 5:28-29 there is but one resurrection allotted per person; not 200.
If absolute justice could be satisfied with torture, then hell's inmates could look forward to a release date. But alas; such isn't to happen because the only "coinage" the Bible's God is in a position to accept in lieu of their own lives is His son's life.
Bottom line: Christ's crucifixion is the final option. Those who refuse to take advantage of it, will cross over to the other side in poverty; with literally no way in hell to pay their debts to God; thus they'll be stuck there.
_
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I believe in the One who succeeds from start to finish !
I Believe
I believe in “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began.” -Acts 3:21-
I believe that the “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” -Luke 2:10
I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.” -John 1:13-
I believe
I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” -Hebr. 1:2-
I believe that “no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him.” -John 6:44
I believe “God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him.” -John 17:2-
I believe
I believe the Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” -John 13:3-
I believe that Jesus Christ “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” -John 1:9
I believe that “just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men.” -Romans 5:18
I believe one mans sin “brought condemnation for all mankind.” -Rom. 5:19-
I believe one mans righteousness brings “right relationship with God, and new life for everyone.” -Romans 5:19-
I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.
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I Believe.FineLinen said:
That anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture out-of-context and ignoring other verses. The JWs do it. The LDS do it. The UPCI do it. The OP do it. The WWCG do it. The INC do it. etc.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Was Jesus lying when He said "not everyone ...shall enter into the kingdom of heaven?"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
When Jesus said "I never knew you" did He mean "Someday I will know you?"
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You forgot one: The endless tortures club does it.
You know, the Holy Crusades, torturing heretics by Inquisitionists, slavery, burning people to death by fire, etc.
That explains their 100's of denominations all in disagreement with each other.
Who are the less than 1% that are right, if any.
None. Nada. Zilch. 0%.
*******************************************
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).
BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently those there are, for there own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.
May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.
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Heb.8:11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
There's no mention of "repent before death" there. What happens to babies, children & teens who die in unrepentance and never heard the gospel?
Regarding the word "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":
"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..."
Mark 9 Benson Commentary
"Philo...uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful."
Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment
Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."?
Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to. "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless torments it's next to nothing.
In that light, Mt.7:21-23 is more favorable to universalism than endless punishment.
Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom. Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever? Of course not.
The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.
Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).
Mt.7:21 Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the *one* doing the will of My Father in the heavens.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
What is "that day" (Mt.7:22) referring to? The day of Christ's return? Not final destiny.
Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.
Mt.7:21 Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the *one* doing the will of My Father in the heavens.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
What is "that day" (Mt.7:22) referring to? Possibly "the kingdom of the heavens" (v.21) itself as the millennial (1000 year) age kingdom of Christ? Peter says 1000 years (a millennium) is as a "day" to God (2 Pet.3:8) & also speaks of the "day of the age" (2 Pet.3:18):
Young's Literal Translation
2 Pet.3:18) and increase ye in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; to him is the glory both now, and to the day of the age! Amen.
Some other remarks from Matthew's gospel are significant in this regard:
Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."
Why affirm belief in Hell?
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.
Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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I forgot nothing. I'll tell you what if/when you get this part right we might be able to have a reasoned discussion but I doubt this will ever happen.ClementofA said:
You tell me which of these 11 verses I am quoting out-of-context? If you think these verses are out-of-context prove it from the words of Jesus alone. The words of Jesus take precedence over anything the disciples wrote later.
If you like I can quote these verses from the literal EOB translation. Oh wait I forgot the only "literal" version UR-ites will accept are the so-called "literal" versions which support UR.
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," [3X- Mark 9:43-48]
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” [Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50]
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," [3X- Mark 9:43-48]
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” [Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50]
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
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Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. "It doesn't say etc. etc. etc. so it can't mean never." What did Jesus' immediate audience understand when He said "Depart from me. I never knew you?" Did they think "Don't worry we are all going to be redeemed by and by?"ClementofA said:
Here is something you might appreciate from Clement of Alexandria.
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 30-100] The Second Epistle. Chap. IV.
Let us, then, not only call Him Lord, for that will not save us. For He saith, “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall be saved, but he that worketh righteousness.”227 Wherefore, brethren, let us confess Him by our works, by loving one another, by not committing adultery, or speaking evil of one another, or cherishing envy; but by being continent, compassionate, and good. We ought also to sympathize with one another, and not be avaricious.
Chap V
Jesus said unto Peter, “The lambs have no cause after they are dead to fear232 the wolves; and in like manner, fear not ye them that kill you, and can do nothing more unto you; but fear Him who, after you are dead, has power over both soul and body to cast them into hell-fire.” (Mat_10:28; Luk_12:4, Luk_12:5)
Chap VI
For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments. For thus also saith the Scripture in Ezekiel, “If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity.” (Eze_14:14, Eze_14:20) Now, if men so eminently righteous are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children, how 239 can we hope to enter into the royal residence240 of God unless we keep our baptism holy and undefiled? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found possessed of works of holiness and righteousness?
Chap VII
What then think ye? If one does anything unseemly in the incorruptible contest, what shall he have to bear? For of those who do not preserve the seal 246 [unbroken], [the Scripture] saith, “Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.” (Isa_66:24)
Chap VIII
For as the potter, if he make a vessel, and it be distorted or broken in his hands, fashions it over again; but if he have before this cast it into the furnace of fire, can no longer find any help for it: so let us also, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil deeds we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet an opportunity of repentance. For after we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will there belong to us.
Chap XVII
This means the day of His appearing, when He will come and redeem us - each one according to his works. And the unbelievers will see His glory and might, and, when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprise, saying, “Woe to us, because Thou wast, and we knew not and believed not and obeyed not the elders (Isa_66:18) who show us plainly of our salvation.” And “their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle unto all flesh.”…
The righteous, having succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul, whenever they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in fire unquenchable, will give glory to their God and say, “There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart.”
Let us, then, not only call Him Lord, for that will not save us. For He saith, “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall be saved, but he that worketh righteousness.”227 Wherefore, brethren, let us confess Him by our works, by loving one another, by not committing adultery, or speaking evil of one another, or cherishing envy; but by being continent, compassionate, and good. We ought also to sympathize with one another, and not be avaricious.
Chap V
Jesus said unto Peter, “The lambs have no cause after they are dead to fear232 the wolves; and in like manner, fear not ye them that kill you, and can do nothing more unto you; but fear Him who, after you are dead, has power over both soul and body to cast them into hell-fire.” (Mat_10:28; Luk_12:4, Luk_12:5)
Chap VI
For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments. For thus also saith the Scripture in Ezekiel, “If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity.” (Eze_14:14, Eze_14:20) Now, if men so eminently righteous are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children, how 239 can we hope to enter into the royal residence240 of God unless we keep our baptism holy and undefiled? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found possessed of works of holiness and righteousness?
Chap VII
What then think ye? If one does anything unseemly in the incorruptible contest, what shall he have to bear? For of those who do not preserve the seal 246 [unbroken], [the Scripture] saith, “Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.” (Isa_66:24)
Chap VIII
For as the potter, if he make a vessel, and it be distorted or broken in his hands, fashions it over again; but if he have before this cast it into the furnace of fire, can no longer find any help for it: so let us also, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil deeds we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet an opportunity of repentance. For after we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will there belong to us.
Chap XVII
This means the day of His appearing, when He will come and redeem us - each one according to his works. And the unbelievers will see His glory and might, and, when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprise, saying, “Woe to us, because Thou wast, and we knew not and believed not and obeyed not the elders (Isa_66:18) who show us plainly of our salvation.” And “their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle unto all flesh.”…
The righteous, having succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul, whenever they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in fire unquenchable, will give glory to their God and say, “There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart.”
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Do you consider yourself to be "irrefutable" like these Jewish sources you repeatedly claim are "irrefutable":
I've addressed those to you many times. Let's consider one, for example:
In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:
"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Your entire post has been addressed before:
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).
BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently those there are, for there own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.
May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
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Strawman argument in quotes which i never stated & you invented from the imagination of your own mind.
Before chapter 7 comes chapter 1:
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who conspired to destroy Christ.
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.
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ClementofA said:
Rubbish! You didn't say those exact words but you said the same thing
"Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."
Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. So because Jesus didn't say all this when He said "I never knew you" that to you means someday those He said "I never knew you" will be saved regardless?Where does this say "Jesus will save all mankind even the unrighteous after death?
Are those who openly reject(ed) Jesus still considered His people?
Luke 19:26-27
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Then of course we have.26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Matthew 7:21-22
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
You would have us believe that verse 21 does not say 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;"
But instead means, "everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven righteous and unrighteous alike."
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Only in your imagination of the fake quote of me you posted. Which BTW you failed to link to any post of mine with the context of my actual quote, so who knows what the context said since you purposely left it out. As you do again here:
Where did that say anyone will NEVER be saved, but sadisticlly tortured throughout endless eons?
It's incredibly - lame - for a Jesus you think will monstrously fry people for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...
If that were His belief, why is it entirely absent from Scripture? Why is Scripture instead - full - of lame warnings like the above, ALL of which are perfectly harmonious with the many passages that support universalism. By quoting Lk.19:26-27 you only shoot your own dogma in the foot...yet again.
Got anymore - lame - ones you want to post - to add to the lists of those you already have?
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.
Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?
Did you miss verse 22 of the context which is speaking of what will happen on a certain "day", not eternal destinies? Nothing there states they cannot be saved at some point in the future beyond that "day".
By the same kind of logic you would have us believe that no one will be saved because all have been unrighteous & 1 Cor.6:9 says:
"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"
Remember this:
It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:
1 Cor 6:9-11
"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
As a commentator says:
"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"
"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."
So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.
Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
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