Submission and obedience.

lovelife34

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"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:17)
Everything I said doesn't come down to pop psychology. LOL. If YOU want to emotionally withdraw from your marriage by interacting less with your wife, cancelling dates, and not doing nice things for her, you have God-given free will to do that. No one is stopping you. :D You have a God-given right to do that stuff. I don't operate in that manner. I communicate verbally, with my words.

Of course the Bible doesn't include the words 'narcissist' and 'controlling.' It doesn't mean they don't exist. There are controlling people in the world. There are narcissists in the world. Narcissists have very specific traits: delusions of grandeur, being faultless/blameless, a distorted view of self, and display narcissistic control.

"The narcissistic personality manifests itself in the narcissist's behavior. He (or she) will seek to dominate every individual and every group with which he interacts. The narcissistic personality and its obsessive desire for control is not about control just for control's sake, but an essential defense against the risk of receiving a narcissistic injury; a blow to the ego or self-esteem.

The narcissist lives in fear of losing control. He sees other people in his environment - at home, at work, friends, relatives and neighbors - as extensions to himself. He sees himself at the center of the world, the controller, an idol to be adored and admired; in his mind this makes it acceptable for him to abuse others - he continually trys to rearrange the 'significant others' in his life to look towards him, and admire him."

You can call them whatever you want, but these people exist, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Psychology is not insignificant. For example, there are many Christian people who were physically or sexually abused as children/adults. These people suffer psychological damage...

It's not insignificant. Your premise is that secular things are insignificant. So why do you obey the law? Why do you obey traffic rules? These things are secular, yet very significant. You claim that secular things are insignificant and talk about pop psychology. So explain why there are murderers in the world, people who shoot down schools and public buildings? They are sociopaths/psychopaths. They have specific traits that have been studied for years.

Again, it's clear to me that you're being led by your flesh. You made this personal when it was never personal. You can quote Bible verses til Kingdom come, it doesn't change anything. I said I don't operate in the whole manipulation/coercion stratosphere. You have a GOD-GIVEN RIGHT to manipulate your wife as you see fit. If spending less time with your wife makes her do what you want to do, then do it. Did I once tell you to stop? Did I once tell you not to do that? I said I don't do that. If I want to talk to my future husband about issues, then I will. God gave me a mouth. I can communicate verbally with someone instead of playing these immature games with them. Marriage isn't about playing games to me. If you want to play games with your wife, then play!

Honestly, it's a waste of time to engage with someone like you. You just spew out Bible verses. You just created a bunch of strawmans. Nothing of what I said is relevant to those verses. Think logically for a second. Get out of your overemotionalism and hypersensitivity.

First I asked a very valid question, what is the point of a man to get married, if he still will ultimately make the final decisions? It's better for men to stay single and have complete autonomy, and not even waste time listening to opinions they don't care about. (You completely ignored this.)

Secondly, I asked why a husband wouldn't verbally communicate with his wife, instead of resorting to manipulative tactics. (You completely ignored this.)

Third, I talked about why it would make sense to give stewardship of finances to a man if he was financially impulsive. (You completely ignored this.) So basically, you would condone a financially impulsive man driving his family into bankruptcy and homelessness, because he's the 'head of the house." And somehow, God would provide, right?

I'm a very reasonable person, but it's impossible to reason with an irrational person. Spewing out random, irrelevant Bible verses doesn't do anything. The Bible talks about sacrificial love, so you're trying to assert that, even though you're supposed to sacrificially love your wife, that when she doesn't behave the way you want her to, you will emotionally withdraw and isolate her? That is self-serving love, not sacrificial love. It's very simple.
 
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Aussie Pete

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I understand, but my understanding comes from being a victim of DV and the church forbidding divorce because of it. also a christian told me today we have to suffer in life and that means suffering abuse.
I've not found your post re examples of submission. It's not hard. Woman decides the home needs new carpet. Husband says no, it's not the right time and we can't afford it. Woman has choices. Accept husband's decision without dissent. Accept husband's decision but make him pay for it. Reject husband's decision and spend money they don't have on a new carpet. You can figure out which response is submission.

Having been in the situation, I know it's not fun to have to say no at times. That's the cost of responsibility. If the husband caves in, God holds him responsible for the consequences.
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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I've not found your post re examples of submission. It's not hard. Woman decides the home needs new carpet. Husband says no, it's not the right time and we can't afford it. Woman has choices. Accept husband's decision without dissent. Accept husband's decision but make him pay for it. Reject husband's decision and spend money they don't have on a new carpet. You can figure out which response is submission.

Having been in the situation, I know it's not fun to have to say no at times. That's the cost of responsibility. If the husband caves in, God holds him responsible for the consequences.
It’s not hard to offer hypothetical examples of self denial over trivial things, but what if the husband refuses to spend his money to give charitably, the wife rejects his decision, goes behind his back to give a large amount according to her own judgement of what’s right, and starts bad mouthing him while doing it?

At least in 1 Samuel 25, the husband dies within a fortnight and the wife ends up marrying King David.
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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That is no part of a Christian marriage.
The husband is to love his wife with the same sort of set set sacrif love Jesus has for the church.
Any man who is seeking to love his wife that way cannot punish her for his failures or even for her failures.

Punishment is not part of a husband and wife relationship in a Christian marriage.
I wasn’t saying anything about one human punishing another human though, but rather exploring the difference between one passage where an unrighteous man’s entire household was punished for what he did compared to the passage where an unbelieving man and children would be sanctified through the wife.

It seems to me that for those two passages to reconcile there’s something in the fact that the wife and children stood by his side when he was destroyed, especially compared to the other passage about Abigail.

It’s not an easy topic and not one I have any answer for. In that I’m grateful for the ability to simply say I don’t know and may God guide everyone to walk in his Way.
 
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I've not found your post re examples of submission. It's not hard. Woman decides the home needs new carpet. Husband says no, it's not the right time and we can't afford it. Woman has choices. Accept husband's decision without dissent. Accept husband's decision but make him pay for it. Reject husband's decision and spend money they don't have on a new carpet. You can figure out which response is submission.

Having been in the situation, I know it's not fun to have to say no at times. That's the cost of responsibility. If the husband caves in, God holds him responsible for the consequences.
A similar situation arose in our house. I was miffed by my husband's quick decision, but we talked it out and settled it without an argument.

In our case it's a refrigerator, not carpeting. Ours is 18 years old and falling apart in several places. The ice maker no longer functions. Part of the door shelves are held on with duct tape. One of the hanging shelves won't hang right because a hook is broken off. The two vegetable crispers are sitting on the bottom rather than sliding out from underneath the lowest shelf like the drawers they're supposed to be, because the moving parts are missing too.

When I merely mentioned the possibility of getting a new refrigerator, my husband replied with an immediate and very blunt, "No." His philosophy is, as long as it's still cooling food down, it's good to go.

I waited a few minutes to calm down before pointing out that I'm bringing in a paycheck too. In fact, my earnings equal his.* Therefore it should be an "us" decision, not solely a "he" decision. I should have just as much say in the matter as he does. He agreed with that, but then he logically pointed a few things the house needs more than a new refrigerator. Finally it occurred to him to actually ask me what I thought. I answered that I never was suggesting we just run right out tomorrow and buy one, but I do believe we should start saving for one. At this point I think he would have been willing to go ahead and buy one, but I did acknowledge that he had good reasons for wanting to put it off. In the future, it might be a good idea to lead off with those good reasons, rather than just "no" and nothing else.

So, now we're saving for a refrigerator.

I wouldn't question my level of submission here. I stated my case without being disrespectful of him, and convinced him to listen to me, whereupon we came to a solution we both agreed on.


Note: The "my earnings equal his" statement was true at the time. Now the virus has him furloughed, and he's actually making more money on unemployment than he would be making at work. I, on the other hand, have returned to work, but with not as many hours available. I never did draw unemployment, because I work for the federal government and was drawing "covid pay" from them while our office was closed. So, he's back to out-earning me again. Which is fine. But I still think I should have *some* say in the matter.
 
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Paidiske

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I don't think say in financial decisions for a household should depend on equality of earnings. Even spouses who don't earn well can be very badly affected by unwise financial decisions!
 
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Agreed. I'm blessed that my husband is a wise financial manager. He's taught me a lot, which has come in handy after I started working. Honestly, I would have been miffed at that flat "no" even if I still didn't have an income. But the fact is that I do. He shouldn't be telling me that I couldn't use my own earnings to buy a refrigerator, if I wanted to.
 
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Everything I said doesn't come down to pop psychology. LOL. If YOU want to emotionally withdraw from your marriage by interacting less with your wife, cancelling dates, and not doing nice things for her, you have God-given free will to do that. No one is stopping you. :D You have a God-given right to do that stuff. I don't operate in that manner. I communicate verbally, with my words.

Of course the Bible doesn't include the words 'narcissist' and 'controlling.' It doesn't mean they don't exist. There are controlling people in the world. There are narcissists in the world. Narcissists have very specific traits: delusions of grandeur, being faultless/blameless, a distorted view of self, and display narcissistic control.

"The narcissistic personality manifests itself in the narcissist's behavior. He (or she) will seek to dominate every individual and every group with which he interacts. The narcissistic personality and its obsessive desire for control is not about control just for control's sake, but an essential defense against the risk of receiving a narcissistic injury; a blow to the ego or self-esteem.

The narcissist lives in fear of losing control. He sees other people in his environment - at home, at work, friends, relatives and neighbors - as extensions to himself. He sees himself at the center of the world, the controller, an idol to be adored and admired; in his mind this makes it acceptable for him to abuse others - he continually trys to rearrange the 'significant others' in his life to look towards him, and admire him."

You can call them whatever you want, but these people exist, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Psychology is not insignificant. For example, there are many Christian people who were physically or sexually abused as children/adults. These people suffer psychological damage...

As previously noted, from the biblical perspective, the unsubmissive woman is the narcissist because she thinks she is above the mind of Christ (Philippians 2:5-8). The unsubmissive woman is controlling of things God has not given her control of (Ephesians 5:22-33, 1 Peter 3:1-6) and manipulative of God's words.

There is no person more narcissistic than one who thinks they are above God, more controlling than one who has to control things God didn't give them dominion over, and more manipulative than one who manipulates the words of God. What's funny is rebellious women love to think this is husbands who apply explicit Scripture, when it is actually all women who don't think they have to live by it.

It's not insignificant. Your premise is that secular things are insignificant. So why do you obey the law? Why do you obey traffic rules? These things are secular, yet very significant. You claim that secular things are insignificant and talk about pop psychology. So explain why there are murderers in the world, people who shoot down schools and public buildings? They are sociopaths/psychopaths. They have specific traits that have been studied for years.

There is a world of difference between what governs where my car can drive and what governs my mind. The roads are Caesars and can be rendered unto Caesar; marriage and my mind are God's and will be rendered unto God (Luke 20:25). Every thought will be taken captive to Christ and every opposition to it will be torn down (2 Corinthians 10:4-5).

Again, it's clear to me that you're being led by your flesh. You made this personal when it was never personal. You can quote Bible verses til Kingdom come, it doesn't change anything. I said I don't operate in the whole manipulation/coercion stratosphere.

And this right here reveals why you will never stop being narcissistic and manipulative.

"You can quote Bible verses til Kingdom come, it doesn't change anything."

So you are wise in your own eyes and not subject to Scripture, of which the Proverbs says there is more hope for a fool (Proverbs 26:12). If you're a Christian, Scriptural truth should have ultimate power of your mind. But instead you substitute that power for another and say you're free. You call the Bible manipulation yet secular ideology wisdom. Christ says freedom is in His doctrine (John 8:31-32), and that those who reject those He sent (like Peter and Paul) reject Him (Luke 10:16).

Honestly, it's a waste of time to engage with someone like you. You just spew out Bible verses. You just created a bunch of strawmans. Nothing of what I said is relevant to those verses. Think logically for a second. Get out of your overemotionalism and hypersensitivity.

Isn't it ironic (but should it not be expected?) that the ones quickest to used the words "narcissist" and "manipulative" should be the most manipulative? You will find the same way you are unimpressed by Scripture is the manner with which I regard these ad hominem tactics. Claiming an appeal to emotions would be logically consistent if there was an appeal to emotions. Follow closely: An appeal to Scripture is an appeal to Scripture; an appeal to intuition is an appeal to intuition; an appeal to the sciences is an appeal to the sciences; an appeal to emotion is an appeal to emotion.

Did you notice a pattern? A is A. My argument is Scriptural doctrine. Unless you think a physical copies of the Bible are constituted worldwide by my emotions (an incredible thought), it can not be an appeal to emotions.

And yes, if you don't accept Scripture you are most assuredly wasting your time engaging with me, because explicit doctrine will trump anything else you are trusting in and my mind is entirely subject to the word of God because I would rather trust in the Lord than princes (Psalms 118:8-9), and regard flesh as of no account (Isaiah 2:22). That will never change.

First I asked a very valid question, what is the point of a man to get married, if he still will ultimately make the final decisions? It's better for men to stay single and have complete autonomy, and not even waste time listening to opinions they don't care about. (You completely ignored this.)

I did answer it. To tell the story of Christ and image Him and His church, the greatest opportunity and privilege on earth. It's only our degenerate world (in general) that can't perceive the beauty and glory of this over the worthless notion the world is trying to supplant God's purposes with.

Secondly, I asked why a husband wouldn't verbally communicate with his wife, instead of resorting to manipulative tactics. (You completely ignored this.)

This too was already answered, you just didn't like the answer. All discipline, just and unjust, is manipulative. Laws are manipulative. Trying to make a person feel badly about their behaviour to discourage it is manipulation. Spanking, grounding, jailing, fining, scolding, withholding; these are all meant to coerce a desired change in behaviour, and thus they manipulate the subject.

For just or unjust reasons, anything which coerces a person against their inclinations is, by definition, manipulation. Even getting a person to not be manipulative by physical or emotional forces is manipulating the situation and the person's behaviour. The question is not if it is manipulative, but what is being manipulated, by whom and why.

Third, I talked about why it would make sense to give stewardship of finances to a man if he was financially impulsive. (You completely ignored this.) So basically, you would condone a financially impulsive man driving his family into bankruptcy and homelessness, because he's the 'head of the house." And somehow, God would provide, right?

You don't trust God, this is your most basic problem. Yes, the Bible says that even if they do not obey the word, women who submit and aren't afraid because they trust God behave in a holy manner (1 Peter 3:1-6). God will always provide if you seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness (Matthew 6:33).

I'm a very reasonable person, but it's impossible to reason with an irrational person. Spewing out random, irrelevant Bible verses doesn't do anything. The Bible talks about sacrificial love, so you're trying to assert that, even though you're supposed to sacrificially love your wife, that when she doesn't behave the way you want her to, you will emotionally withdraw and isolate her? That is self-serving love, not sacrificial love. It's very simple.

This was addressed above. Additionally, discipline is for those who are loved (Revelation 3:19).
 
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Tolworth John

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The wife is under the husbands covering, meaning if his interpretation of Jesus teachings are twisted or compromised and his wife follows them out of obedience she will not be judged for that (but the husband will be judged on this)Just like how the husband is under Jesus covering, meaning covered by Jesus interpretation of the word of God.

Marriage is not a partnership in the sense that you both discuss and compromise about how to follow the word of God or what it means. Jesus is one with God through submission and the husband and wife become one through the wife's submission to the husbands interpretation,even if she does not agree with it but accepts it. Just like the husband must follow Jesus interpretation even if he does not agree he must accept it. But Mark 4:20 the good soil are he who hears the word of God and accepts it.

Sorry being male does not give you or me a supernatural understanding of scripture.
A man's ideas about God or what the Bible says are just as likely to be total nonsense as any other persons and a woman's ideas are just as likely to be correct.

So there is no covering or submission to a man's view but an open discussion and mural submission.
 
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Tolworth John

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I wasn’t saying anything about one human punishing another human though, but rather exploring the difference between one passage where an unrighteous man’s entire household was punished for what he did compared to the passage where an unbelieving man and children would be sanctified through the wife.

It seems to me that for those two passages to reconcile there’s something in the fact that the wife and children stood by his side when he was destroyed, especially compared to the other passage about Abigail.

It’s not an easy topic and not one I have any answer for. In that I’m grateful for the ability to simply say I don’t know and may God guide everyone to walk in his Way.

Oriental andcmiddle eastern culture put the family way above the value or rightscof an individual.
Often if one family member offended a community, the whole family would suffer.

In the N T each individual is responsible for his/her sins and there is no corporate family guilt.

This has to be kept in mind when studying Of law.
 
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Paidiske

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Oh a sudden change of view. Nothing has changed in what I've been saying.

What I was saying is that where Scripture uses the word "head," you have put a whole lot of meaning on that that isn't spelled out in Scripture at all. Scripture doesn't say, men should make decisions, men are responsible for success or failure, women aren't accountable. In many ways, Scripture says very different things to that!
 
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Aussie Pete

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A similar situation arose in our house. I was miffed by my husband's quick decision, but we talked it out and settled it without an argument.

In our case it's a refrigerator, not carpeting. Ours is 18 years old and falling apart in several places. The ice maker no longer functions. Part of the door shelves are held on with duct tape. One of the hanging shelves won't hang right because a hook is broken off. The two vegetable crispers are sitting on the bottom rather than sliding out from underneath the lowest shelf like the drawers they're supposed to be, because the moving parts are missing too.

When I merely mentioned the possibility of getting a new refrigerator, my husband replied with an immediate and very blunt, "No." His philosophy is, as long as it's still cooling food down, it's good to go.

I waited a few minutes to calm down before pointing out that I'm bringing in a paycheck too. In fact, my earnings equal his.* Therefore it should be an "us" decision, not solely a "he" decision. I should have just as much say in the matter as he does. He agreed with that, but then he logically pointed a few things the house needs more than a new refrigerator. Finally it occurred to him to actually ask me what I thought. I answered that I never was suggesting we just run right out tomorrow and buy one, but I do believe we should start saving for one. At this point I think he would have been willing to go ahead and buy one, but I did acknowledge that he had good reasons for wanting to put it off. In the future, it might be a good idea to lead off with those good reasons, rather than just "no" and nothing else.

So, now we're saving for a refrigerator.

I wouldn't question my level of submission here. I stated my case without being disrespectful of him, and convinced him to listen to me, whereupon we came to a solution we both agreed on.


Note: The "my earnings equal his" statement was true at the time. Now the virus has him furloughed, and he's actually making more money on unemployment than he would be making at work. I, on the other hand, have returned to work, but with not as many hours available. I never did draw unemployment, because I work for the federal government and was drawing "covid pay" from them while our office was closed. So, he's back to out-earning me again. Which is fine. But I still think I should have *some* say in the matter.
Being reasonable is the other side of the coin. And communication for sure. Husbands are supposed to love their wives and do what is best for the family. That includes a new refrigerator rather than new golf clubs. Selfishness is not love. The reality is that few men have been correctly brought up to be proper husbands. I suggest that all married couples (or intending) should listen to Mark Gungor. He nails the issues in marriage in a way that is direct and hilarious, a great combination.
 
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It’s not hard to offer hypothetical examples of self denial over trivial things, but what if the husband refuses to spend his money to give charitably, the wife rejects his decision, goes behind his back to give a large amount according to her own judgement of what’s right, and starts bad mouthing him while doing it?

At least in 1 Samuel 25, the husband dies within a fortnight and the wife ends up marrying King David.
She's in the wrong. She is showing no respect. She is not answerable to God, he is. If she has her own income, fine, let her do with it as she pleases. But she has no right to give what is not hers. I'm not sure new carpet is trivial. It cost me $5,000!
 
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Tolworth John

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What I was saying is that where Scripture uses the word "head," you have put a whole lot of meaning on that that isn't spelled out in Scripture at all. Scripture doesn't say, men should make decisions, men are responsible for success or failure, women aren't accountable. In many ways, Scripture says very different things to that!

I said the man takes the responcibility, that is not the same as making the decision despite what the wife has to say.
As I said in the bit you praised marriage is a partnership sometimes the husband will be right other times he'll be wrong. But in every organisation whether a marriage a business partnership there has to be someone who has the final say. That is the man.
It doesn't confer infalability or the right to run rough shod over his wife or children.
 
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What I was saying is that where Scripture uses the word "head," you have put a whole lot of meaning on that that isn't spelled out in Scripture at all. Scripture doesn't say, men should make decisions, men are responsible for success or failure, women aren't accountable. In many ways, Scripture says very different things to that!

My Big Fat Greek Wedding says the same :)

96e5ca51b5b0d82bb180faec0c3cb2f7.jpg
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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She's in the wrong. She is showing no respect. She is not answerable to God, he is. If she has her own income, fine, let her do with it as she pleases. But she has no right to give what is not hers. I'm not sure new carpet is trivial. It cost me $5,000!
To me both a carpet and $5000 are *different than* the loss of life that would have been the outcome in the example I gave.

You judge that the wife was in the wrong for what she did, but scripture seems to disagree with you:

Now the name of the man was Nabal; and the name of his wife Abigail; and the woman was of good understanding, and of a beautiful countenance: but the man was churlish and evil in his doings; and he was of the house of Caleb. (1 Samuel 25:3, ASV)

And you’re implying that you’re a better judge of righteousness than King David who said:

And David said to Abigail, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel, who sent thee this day to meet me: and blessed be thy discretion, and blessed be thou, that hast kept me this day from bloodguiltiness, and from avenging myself with mine own hand. (1 Samuel 25:32-33, ASV)

You say she isn’t answerable to God but David praises God for sending her so at least from David’s perspective this didn’t happen because of her own ingenuity and initiative but because God put her in a situation where she answered correctly.
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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Also I’m sorry for actually saying that was trivial because I’m not judging taking care of your own house to make sure you have carpet as a bad thing since I know I haven’t taken a vow of poverty and it’s something that I’m sure we all are dealing with, whether we have the “right” to buy things when people are starving to death, or at least having a sense of wrongness yet still waging war against the flesh.

Which is probably another very long topic of discussion that isn’t on this one, but still, I am sorry for acting judgemental about the triviality of money when I still have money and things.
 
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My husband drew this cartoon of me.
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Let’s not forget Sapphira who certainly submitted to her husband in every sense of the word. She went along with his lie even behind his back, not knowing he was already dead. “You’re not accountable to God, Sapphira. We know you were only following your husband’s lead.” Is that how it played out? Nope. Women are and should be accountable for themselves.
 
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