Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,655
5,767
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,441.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Doesn't matter. Once we can see examples of non-jews who had to keep the laws then it means it was not made strictly for Jews.
I am sorry but your reasoning here is simply not correct. Here is what we know Biblically:

- The Law of Moses was delivered to the people of Israel;
- Gentiles who are integrated into the community of Israel have to follow it as well.

You are making an unwarranted jump when you infer that this second fact means that the Law applies to all human beings.

Again: If I move to the United States and am therefore integrated into American society, do I have to follow US laws? Of course! But that does not mean my Canadian friends back home north of the border do!

Likewise, just because the small number of Gentiles who get integrated into the community of Israel are to follow the Law of Moses does not necessarily mean it applies to all Gentiles in the rest of the world! How is this not obvious?

In fact, it makes perfect sense that Gentiles who actually live among Jews would have to follow the Law - if they didn't, there would be a lot of strife and conflict.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,655
5,767
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,441.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God's intent was to use the nation of israel to evangelize the world so that non-jews could be saved. Through Abraham, all nations of the world were supposed to be blessed.
I certainly agree that God said He would use Israel to bless the nations. But, again, you are making an assumption if you believe that the means to achieve such blessing is to incorporate those nations under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses. And what do you mean by "evangelize the world"? I see no Biblical evidence for Israel to "evangelize". All we know, I suggest, is that God will use the Jews to bless the world. How that happens is not at all clear in the Old Testament.

If you believe God wanted Israel to follow a particular set of laws just because they were Jews then what do you think about God?
Here is a concise statement from scholar NT Wright that captures the position I am advocating:

Within the apparently negative effect of Torah, stated in Romans 5:20 and amplified in Romans 7:7-20, there lies the extraordinary positive purpose explained in Romans 8:3. God has deliberately given the Torah to be the means of concentrating the sin of humankind in one place, namely, in his people, Israel - in order that it might then be concentrated yet further, drawn together on to Israel's representative, the Messiah - in order that it might there be dealt with once and for all.

Whether you agree with me or not, this argument shows that there is at an hypothesis about why God limits the Law of Moses to the Jews.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,655
5,767
Montreal, Quebec
✟250,441.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God has a good reason for every law he has every given and its not just because of your nationality. So you believe that God commanded them to abstain from unclean foods (which modern science has shown are the worst foods for health) just to distinguish them from the gentiles? No my friend. It is because they were his people, and already distinct from all other people that he wanted them to be healthier than everybody else.
You are simply assuming the Laws about food were given for health reasons. Here is evidence that that they were given to set the nation of Israel apart:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

Are you denying that God is saying that obedience to the food laws has nothing to do with Israel being distinct from the world?

Also, many scholars argue that the Kosher food laws have nothing to do with matters of health. Again, we need to avoid bad logic. Let me concede that the kosher food laws promote health. Even if this is true, is clearly incorrect to assume that health is the reason for the law - there could be many other reasons! This is basic high-school level reasoning.

So you claimed God wanted to save non-jews. Do you agree that he intended to use Israel as the vehicle to do this?
Yes. I explain further through the NT Wright post, above.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ralliann
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟201,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I politely suggest that you are using "common sense" reasoning that, although it has a feel of reasonableness, does not align with what scripture teaches. Consider this from Romans 7:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

I suggest that a careful writer - and I think it is clear that Paul is indeed such a writer - would never say we have been "released" from a law when he really believes that we are "now enabled to follow the law".

Or to put it another way: what Biblical case do you have for the Law of Moses being still in force. Here is a case for it having been set aside:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 [m]by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Surely this "law" has been abolished is the Law of Moses which functioned to mark the Jew out from the Gentile.
the release I believe is the loosing them of the oath which is binding
clear here means innocent, guiltless etc.
An example....
Ge 24:8 And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.
Ge 24:41 Then shalt thou be clear from this my oath, when thou comest to my kindred; and if they give not thee one, thou shalt be clear from my oath.

The oath taken of the people to which they were bound.
Deut. 29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day: {enter: Heb. pass }
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

Not a covenant made with their fathers.

Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,


Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
 
  • Informative
Reactions: pinacled
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,148
623
65
Michigan
✟325,469.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You just said it yourself, teachings and doctrins of men.
Jesus did not bear the penalty of guilt we do not have. He died for our sins that God holds us accountable to. Not for some doctrines of men that we bear no guiltiness.

I know Jesus offered Himself to God for God's Purpose even unto death. He could have called on God and God would have spared Him as HE Himself said. What you said was the Law of Moses Condemned Jesus to death. This is what the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time also said.

What I asked for was the Law God gave to Moses which condemned Jesus to death.

Yes, He offered His Life to pay my death penalty. But you, and others, imply that He was guilty of Breaking the Law of Moses, and therefore the Law of God condemned HIM.

Please back up your preaching by posting the "LAW" of God which condemned HIM.

Thank You.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pinacled
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,148
623
65
Michigan
✟325,469.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Galatians 3:13...Christ redeem us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written “ cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole” Deuteronomy 21:23

There were 3 men hung on a Pole that day. What I asked for was the Law, given to Moses by God, that condemned Jesus to death?

Thank You :)
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟201,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I know Jesus offered Himself to God for God's Purpose even unto death. He could have called on God and God would have spared Him as HE Himself said. What you said was the Law of Moses Condemned Jesus to death. This is what the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time also said.

What I asked for was the Law God gave to Moses which condemned Jesus to death.

Yes, He offered His Life to pay my death penalty. But you, and others, imply that He was guilty of Breaking the Law of Moses, and therefore the Law of God condemned HIM.
No nobody is implying that. I said several times he had no sin. He bore our sin, that is what he was judged for.
So I really do not understand your complaint here?
Please back up your preaching by posting the "LAW" of God which condemned HIM.

Thank You.
Preaching? I am simply giving you an answer to your question. And I still stand by it. He died because he was Judged for all our sins, not his own.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟201,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
You are simply assuming the Laws about food were given for health reasons. Here is evidence that that they were given to set the nation of Israel apart:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

Are you denying that God is saying that obedience to the food laws has nothing to do with Israel being distinct from the world?

Also, many scholars argue that the Kosher food laws have nothing to do with matters of health. Again, we need to avoid bad logic. Let me concede that the kosher food laws promote health. Even if this is true, is clearly incorrect to assume that health is the reason for the law - there could be many other reasons! This is basic high-school level reasoning.


Yes. I explain further through the NT Wright post, above.
If it were for health reasons why not a list to distinguish unclean (poisonous) fruit or herbs man's original diet.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

pasifika

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2019
2,368
634
45
Waikato
✟163,116.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There were 3 men hung on a Pole that day. What I asked for was the Law, given to Moses by God, that condemned Jesus to death?

Thank You :)
Yes 3 men hung on a pole but only one called Christ

So who gave the law that requires sacrifice to be made?
And isn’t sacrifice for sins requires the death of an animal...

Obviously Jesus was offered as a sacrifice for the atonement of sins which required by the law given by God..Hebrews 10:8..”sacrifices and offerings, burnt offering and sin offering you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them- though they were offered in accordance with the law

 
  • Winner
Reactions: ralliann
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pinacled

walking with the Shekinah
Apr 29, 2015
3,311
1,007
United states
✟171,798.77
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
1.He was put to death for our sins.
2. He was brought to trial by Jewish leadership.
You want to point fingers?
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

He withstood it all without a word FOR US or not?
1 Corinthians 2:8
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟201,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
2 Peter 3:16

Oh yes, the last days events were difficult Peter here is writing them again a second epistle concerning those things
2 peter 3:1-3
Just like Paul had also had done the same thing in writing them concerning those things.
2 Peter 3:15
16 As also in all epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟201,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Oh yes, the last days events were difficult Peter here is writing them again a second epistle concerning those things
2 peter 3:1-3
Just like Paul had also had done the same thing in writing them concerning those things.
2 Peter 3:15
16 As also in all epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
I mean how many theories are there concerning Eschatology? 2 thes. 2:3 for example.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,148
623
65
Michigan
✟325,469.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No nobody is implying that. I said several times he had no sin. He bore our sin, that is what he was judged for.
So I really do not understand your complaint here?

Preaching? I am simply giving you an answer to your question. And I still stand by it. He died because he was Judged for all our sins, not his own.

You said "I already answered that. He was condemned by the law of Moses."

He wasn't condemned by God's Laws. He wasn't Judged either, not by God. He was tortured and murdered by self righteous religious men who told lies about Him and HIS Father for centuries.

James 5:6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Jesus offered Himself to the Father of His Own Free will. "No greater love".

Maybe you didn't mean it like it sounded, but I have a problem with folks who continue to blame God's Laws for the sins of man. I have heard it preached that God's Laws are against us. That they have a "Dark Side". That God's Laws are a burden and Yoke of Bondage He placed on the backs of those Children of Abraham, His Friend, that HE had just saved from Egypt. I have heard religious men preach that God's Laws are "Beggarly Elements". That He Burdened men with 613 Laws and if they broke just one, He slaughtered them. I have heard religious men teach that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws "to the letter", and that is why Jesus rejected them.

All these winds of doctrines are false. A continuation of the first deception recorded in the Holy Scriptures, in which Eve was convinced, by a religious voice who used some of God's Word, that God's Commandment, if followed, made her blind.

So when I heard you say that God's Laws condemned Jesus, it seemed like just another continuation of religious voices attack on the Commandments of God.

If I misunderstood your statement, I apologize.
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,148
623
65
Michigan
✟325,469.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes 3 men hung on a pole but only one called Christ

So who gave the law that requires sacrifice to be made?
And isn’t sacrifice for sins requires the death of an animal...

Obviously Jesus was offered as a sacrifice for the atonement of sins which required by the law given by God..Hebrews 10:8..”sacrifices and offerings, burnt offering and sin offering you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them- though they were offered in accordance with the law

That is a good point.

But Jesus offered His Life as a living sacrifice to God. We are saved by HIS Life, not HIS death.

Rom. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The only thing that separated Him from the others who were also crucified, was HIS Life. The very reason why HE was raised from the dead is because God's Law "DIDN'T" Condemn Him. And if we apply His Life to ours (Lintel and 2 door posts, mind and body) "Drink His Blood, Eat His Flesh", then there is no condemnation for us either.

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (Like Jesus did)

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

God's Law didn't condemn Jesus. Religious men condemned Jesus.

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

God knows the end from the beginning, so He knew what they would do to Him and had His Prophets Prophesy about it.

His Blood is His Life, not His Death.

Lev. 11:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pasifika

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2019
2,368
634
45
Waikato
✟163,116.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is a good point.

But Jesus offered His Life as a living sacrifice to God. We are saved by HIS Life, not HIS death.

Rom. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The only thing that separated Him from the others who were also crucified, was HIS Life. The very reason why HE was raised from the dead is because God's Law "DIDN'T" Condemn Him. And if we apply His Life to ours (Lintel and 2 door posts, mind and body) "Drink His Blood, Eat His Flesh", then there is no condemnation for us either.

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (Like Jesus did)

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

God's Law didn't condemn Jesus. Religious men condemned Jesus.

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

God knows the end from the beginning, so He knew what they would do to Him and had His Prophets Prophesy about it.

His Blood is His Life, not His Death.

Lev. 11:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Thank you, God offered His Son as a sin offering for the sins of the whole world..

Romans 8:3.. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so He condemn sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirements of the law be fully met in us...

2Corinthians 5:21..God made Him who had no sin to be a sin offering for us so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God...

Hebrews 10:5..Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said; “sacrifice and offering you did Not desire but a body you prepared for me...

you said we are saved by His life Not His death....

Well, You cannot separate His life and His death in regards to our salvation...we can see in that in the verse you quote
Romans 5:10...For if, while we were Gods enemy, we were reconcile to God through the death of a His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life...

so we cannot say we only need to be saved without being reconciled to the One who gives us life through His Son...

Romans 6:23...the wages of sin is death, so His death was required for our sins Not His because He has no sins...and that is one of the thing that also separate Him from those who crucified with Him..

Leviticus 4 state the a sin offering is required by God if anyone breaks any of His commands...
We all sinned the bible says, so a sin offering was necessary for reconciliation, cleansing, and the forgiveness of sins by God in whom we all sinned against...




 
Upvote 0