Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Major1 · May 25, 2020

ClementofA said:
I'm still awaiting a comprehensive response to this:

Did you read the right verse:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Those words are not added to Mt.1:21:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

BTW the book of Matthew is the first book of the NT, Revelation being the last. In the very first chapter of the first book of the NT, God declares the end from the beginning:

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa.46:10)

And then He saved the "worst of sinners" whom He sent to both Jews & Gentiles, for Love Omnipotent desires to save all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6). All would include people like Pharoah, Judas, Hitler, etc.

"Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

Conclusion: All will be saved."

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

Sorry, Rom 11:26 says no such thing.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

There are those creatures "under the earth", i.e. the wicked dead (e.g. Hitler) in their graves & demons in "hell" worshipping the Lamb. Which is a reference to the one who takes away the sin of the world (i.e. the cosmos, the universe, Jn.1:29).

The only other NT reference to "creature" in the context of salvation is this:

Js.1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 By his own choice, he gave us birth by the word of truth so that we would be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

We, the believers, are merely the "firstfruits" of salvation which will be obtained by all His creatures.

Those believers at that time were just the firstfruits of the harvest of salvation "of his creatures".

Isa.45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"You forget that evangelicals claim that God is omnipotent, infinitely patient, and all-wise, but upon further consideration they actually believe God lacks all 3 qualities. Once people reject Him in this life, God doesn't know how to give them another chance after death. Why not? Because He is just not resourceful enough to give them this new opportunity. You see, Clement, when Jesus preaches to the wicked "spirits -in "prison" (= Hell--1 Peter 3:19; 4:6), Jesus never considered the possibility that some of them might respond, and so, He forgot to give the altar call! And when, Christ anticipates every knee on earth, in heaven, and in Hell bowing after death and confessing Him as Lord, He's sorta stuck with all those lost souls in heaven {Philippians 2:9-11). What Paul doesn't tell you here is that there is a trap door under all these lost souls. So after Jesus gets the worship and confession of His Lordship, He sneakily pulls the lever and all those lost souls fall screaming back to Hell." LOL.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

...continued next post...

You are wasting your time my friend. Your long posts are pedantic and twisted.

Major1 · May 25, 2020

ClementofA said:
In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages. It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

NO! It is also important to know that the answer to your post is "No." The belief in universalism was NOT widespread at all in the first three centuries of the early church, nor has it ever been a widely held belief. It is, however, a belief that has been gaining ground for the past 100 years as we have grown more and more liberal as we leave the Word of God.

If universalism had been commonly believed and taught in the early church the Reformation leaders have talked about it.

ClementofA · May 25, 2020

Major1 said:
The belief in universalism was NOT widespread at all in the first three centuries of the early church, nor has it ever been a widely held belief. It is, however, a belief that has been gaining ground for the past 100 years as we have grown more and more liberal as we leave the Word of God.

If universalism had been commonly believed and taught in the early church the Reformation leaders have talked about it.

Thus sayeth you. That's your stated opinion with nothing backing any of it up. I can state an opinion also: you're wrong! However beyond you, i offer evidence to back up my claims (see below).

As to the Reformation leaders, who knows what they spoke among themselves or thought except Love Omnipotent the Omniscient. Certainly not you. They were also rather busy battling the RCC & attacking & killing one another.

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

FineLinen · May 25, 2020

Major1 said:
NO! It is also important to know that the answer to your post is "No." The belief in universalism was NOT widespread at all in the first three centuries of the early church, nor has it ever been a widely held belief. It is, however, a belief that has been gaining ground for the past 100 years as we have grown more and more liberal as we leave the Word of God.

If universalism had been commonly believed and taught in the early church the Reformation leaders have talked about it.

The Beautiful Heresy

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

The First 500 Years

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

The Earliest Creeds 5

II Early Christianity a Cheerful Religion 17

III Origin of Endless Punishment 36

IV Doctrines of Mitigation and Reserve 53

V Two Kindred Topics 61

VI The Apostles' Immediate Successors 70

VII The Gnostic Sects

The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church

The History of Universalism (Part Two) | Christian Universalist Association

Der Alte · May 25, 2020

ClementofA said:
In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages. It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):...

It would be most helpful if you would link to specific posts. I, for one, do not intend to search through an entire thread trying to figure out which, if any, post you were referring to. To do that, right click on the post number in he upper right corner of the post and click "Copy Link Address." Then paste it in the post you want it.

Butch5 · May 25, 2020

Major1 said:
Yes. The Spirit and soul goes to be with the Lord at death.

Luke 23:43...….
"“Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.”

Stephen prayed in Acts 7:59....
“Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”.

He did not seek to postpone death or to fight it off. His murderers held no fear for him. He remembered the words of Jesus in Luke 12:4....
“Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do”.

2 Corth 12: 1-4...……..
"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth How that He was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter ".

According to Gen 2:7 man was created out of the dust. He was inanimate. Then God breathed His breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. From this we see that a living soul consists of the man and the breath/spirit of God. So, we have two things forming a third. We are told that when a man dies, the breath/spirit of God returns to Him. The body returns to the dust. Since the breath/spirit of God left the body the soul no longer exists. The breath/spirit is something of God and the man returns to the dust. There is nothing left to live on after death.

Butch5 · May 25, 2020

Major1 said:
Now, if what you think is true and the body/soul/spirit all die at death, then what in the world do we do with all the Scriptures that explain the Rapture where we are caught up in the air to be with God forever in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".

How do you explain the 2nd death in Rev. 20:11-14. IF the body and soul is dead than that would mean hell is the grave which is exactly the opposite of Rev. 20:11-14.

You see, in what I have studied, also for a very long time, there will be TWO Resurrections. One is for the Saints of all the ages and the second is in Revelation 20 which 1007 years after Armageddon when the LOST will be resurrected to be judged at the Great WHite Thrown of Christ.

I agree with two resurrections. I don't agree with a pretrib rapture. I didn't say they are all dead. The breath or spirit is something of God, it doesn't die. The soul ceases to exist and the body returns to dust. However, God will raise them again. They will be judged and dealt with.

In Mathew 24 Jesus describes a great tribulation and says after this that the Son of Man will appear in the sky with His angels and will gather His elect.

Der Alte · May 25, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
II Early Christianity a Cheerful Religion

FineLinen said:
17

I clicked on this link and saw something written 120+ years ago. I scrolled down several clicks and I observed a lot of "This guy said this. That guy said that. And some other guy said something else." One thing that I did not see was any specific work by anyone identified. It is easy to say certain ECFs believed UR but it doesn't mean a thing unless a specific writing by that person is identified, title, chapter, section etc.

Butch5 · May 25, 2020

Major1 said:
Paul describing their lives is YOU opinion. That is what YOU want it to say.

You have completely ignored the CONTEXT of Hebrews 11. Paul lists ALL the saints who have died in the faith of God. ALL persisted in their lives but what happened to every single person he listed in chapter 11.....THEY ALL DIED.

Then consider the 1st word in chapter 12....."WHEREFORE, SEEING WE ALSO ARE COMPASSED ABOUT WITH SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES...…….".

You just can not miss the fact that those who died in faith are in heaven looking at us here run our race of life.

I'm sorry but you're imposing that on the text. Where does Paul say they are in Heaven looking down on us. You just posted that Paul said they all died. How do dead people look at others. Again, you're coming to the text with the idea that man can live apart from the body, but you haven't established that from the Scriptures. Nowhere does Paul say these witnesses are alive. He actually, plainly, states the opposite, they all died. Please explain why you would claim these are alive after Paul just stated that they are dead.

agapelove · May 25, 2020

Major1 said:
Thanks for your concern but I am well educated on this subject.

I am sorry and perplexed that you understand that there is only one judgment. The Scriptures I posted for you clearly show that there will be TWO judgments separated by 1007 years.

Your scriptures are the furthest thing from clear and PLEASE show me which scripture you are referring to that states there will be two future comings of Christ separated by 1,007 years?! I can't seem to find that number!

Major1 said:
Not that you folks with the Universalist agenda care about what the Bible actually does say, however I will ask you to one more consider Revelation 20:2-3...…..
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."
Here we see that Satan is bound and in hell FOR 1000 YEARS.

Then AFTER 1000 YEARS he is loosened. The point is that 1000 years have gone by and then in verse 11 we see that after Satan has temped the population on earth there is a JUDGMENT for the lost of the eart plus the ones who had already died of all the ages of time......
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

So what happens to all the lost in verse 14......
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Do you actually believe that the Born again saints of God are going to go through THAT Judgment?????

Before you answer, read carefully Rev. 20:6...…….
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

If there is a FIRST Resurrection does that not tell you that there will be a SECOND?

If you do.....where are they found in Rev. 20????

Oh we care very much about what the Bible says. Do you think I am being forced to sit here and discuss Scripture with you? The number '1,000' is used figuratively all throughout the Bible (Genesis 24:60, Exodus 20:6, Deuteronomy 1:11, Deuteronomy 32:30, Hebrew 12:22), not sure why you think it is being used literally in Rev 20 or why, matter of fact, you interpret anything literally in Revelations.

Yes sir I believe in a first resurrection! And His name is Jesus Christ! Blessed and Holy are those who share in the first resurrection (Jesus Christ), for the second death has no power over them! This does not mean that the saints get their own reward ceremony at a different time under a different judgment seat. It just means they will NOT be HURT by the final judgment because they have been resurrected (WITH CHRIST) unto LIFE, while the REST OF THE DEAD will be resurrected UNTO JUDGMENT.

Major1 said:
If "MY" premillennial" view is wrong then I am very glad to know that I am in some really good company!!!!

I have studied extensively all the views of the end of this age. I am very confident that the "Premillennial" view is the only one available which allows ALL the Scriptures to fit completely within the Word of God's teaching.

Since you reject it then may the Lord bless you and give you peace and joy in the dangerous days as I am not going to argue with you over this.

Premil is an INSULT to Christ's CURRENT priesthood at the RIGHT HAND OF GOD (Ephesians 1:20-23). "I am not going to argue with you over this" is code for "I refuse to look at Scriptures that challenge my doctrine". Suit yourself Mr. Very Confident. But remember the words of God: "These are the ones I look on with favor: those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word."

ClementofA · May 25, 2020

Der Alte said:
It would be most helpful if you would link to specific posts. I, for one, do not intend to search through an entire thread trying to figure out which, if any, post you were referring to. To do that, right click on the post number in he upper right corner of the post and click "Copy Link Address." Then paste it in the post you want it.

It would be helpful if you would link posts that you are quoting. Instead of often removing the link. Since you removed the link, i don't know which post of mine you are quoting. Either leave the link in or say what thread & post number in it the quote is from.

ClementofA · May 25, 2020

Major1 said:
The belief in universalism was NOT widespread at all in the first three centuries of the early church, nor has it ever been a widely held belief.

For what it's worth (quite a bit IMO) the overwhelming majority of Bible believing Christians also don't see it your way, according to the scriptures.

(A.) That's debatable. For example, both the RC & EO allow one to hope for universalism, though many don't just hope but believe it in spite of their church's position. Moreover many more would accept universalism if they weren't entirely ignorant of its positions, or were fully informed of the view. BTW, many others have rejected endless torments in favor of endless annihilation.

(B.) It may have been true through the dark & middle ages when few people had bibles of their own & wouldn't have been able to read them if they did & to speak otherwise would have meant punishment or death. Not a point that is in favor of anti-universalism.

(C.) In the early church, when they could read the Scriptures in their original languages, rather than English language KJV pro Endless Infernalism club mistranslated clones, there were, at times at least, many (or perhaps a majority) who rejected endless punishment:

(1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

"It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.

(2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

"...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

(Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

(3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).

(4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

Jerome says:

"I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

"This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

"The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

"Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

" "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

Major1 · May 26, 2020

ClementofA said:
(A.) That's debatable. For example, both the RC & EO allow one to hope for universalism, though many don't just hope but believe it in spite of their church's position. Moreover many more would accept universalism if they weren't entirely ignorant of its positions, or were fully informed of the view. BTW, many others have rejected endless torments in favor of endless annihilation.

(B.) It may have been true through the dark & middle ages when few people had bibles of their own & wouldn't have been able to read them if they did & to speak otherwise would have meant punishment or death. Not a point that is in favor of anti-universalism.

(C.) In the early church, when they could read the Scriptures in their original languages, rather than English language KJV pro Endless Infernalism club mistranslated clones, there were, at times at least, many (or perhaps a majority) who rejected endless punishment:

(1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

"It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.

(2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

"...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

(Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

(3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).

(4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

Jerome says:

"I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

"This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

"The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

"Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

" "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

Not so!
The Universalist false teaching runs counter to the teaching of the Bible that "all who call upon the name of the Lord" will be united to Christ and eternally saved, not all people in general.

Jesus clearly and correctly taught that those who reject him as Saviour will spend eternity in hell in toprments after they die:

You are more than welcome to post comments from anyone you believe agrees with your agenda but none of them, including you can change what is found in the Word of God.

Major1 · May 26, 2020

Butch5 said:
I'm sorry but you're imposing that on the text. Where does Paul say they are in Heaven looking down on us. You just posted that Paul said they all died. How do dead people look at others. Again, you're coming to the text with the idea that man can live apart from the body, but you haven't established that from the Scriptures. Nowhere does Paul say these witnesses are alive. He actually, plainly, states the opposite, they all died. Please explain why you would claim these are alive after Paul just stated that they are dead.

Read Hebrews 12:1-2 AFTER you have read Hebrews 11. If that does not help you understand, then there is nothing I can do for you. Actually this is the 2nd time I have explained this to you.

FineLinen · May 26, 2020

Major1 said:
Not so!
The Universalist false teaching runs counter to the teaching of the Bible that "all who call upon the name of the Lord" will be united to Christ and eternally saved, not all people in general.

Jesus clearly and correctly taught that those who reject him as Saviour will spend eternity in hell in toprments after they die:

Matthew 10:28

Matthew 23:33

Matthew 25:46

Luke 16:23

John 3:36

You are more than welcome to post comments from anyone you believe agrees with your agenda but none of them, including you can change what is found in the Word of God.

That is exciting information Big Guy.

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

"Will have" = thelo

"He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,"

Potentate = Sovereign authority = exousia =

Ability & strength to do as He pleases.

Our God is not the ultimate gambler. He Is the One who does as He pleases with the ability & strength to do it.

He is not the God of good wishes.

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

Major1 · May 26, 2020

Butch5 said:
I agree with two resurrections. I don't agree with a pretrib rapture. I didn't say they are all dead. The breath or spirit is something of God, it doesn't die. The soul ceases to exist and the body returns to dust. However, God will raise them again. They will be judged and dealt with.

In Mathew 24 Jesus describes a great tribulation and says after this that the Son of Man will appear in the sky with His angels and will gather His elect.

I am sorry, but that is what I believe the Scriptures tell us. A pre-tribulation rapture is the only position that allows the Scriptures', both Old and New teat. to fit perfectly together.

To deny premillennialism is to deny the consistent application of the literal historical-grammatical interpretation of the Bible. For the non-premill view fails because:
1) It takes parts of the Bible literally but not all (e.g., prophecy);
2) It takes part of the prophets literally (First Advent) but not all of the Second Advent texts;
3) It takes part of the Gospels literally, namely, Christ’s death and resurrection (Matt. 26-28) but not all of Jesus’ predictions made in the Gospels, namely, His statements about His Second Coming (Matt. 19:28; Matt. 24-25); 4);
4) It takes part of a verse literally but not the rest. When quoting Isaiah Jesus stopped in the middle of a sentence and pronounced it literally fulfilled (in His First Coming), but the rest of the verse speaks of His Second Coming which must be taken literally too (cf. Isa. 61:1-2 cf. Luke 4:18-21); 5)
5) It takes one resurrection literally but not the other (Rev. 20:5-6; John 5:28-29). But the two are listed together in the same texts. Both are said to involve people coming out of graves (Jn. 5:25-28) where dead bodies reside.
The Importance of Premillennialism – NORMAN GEISLER

What you are proposing is exactly what the Jehovah Witnesses believe. Are you aware of that????

Major1 · May 26, 2020

FineLinen said:
That is exciting information Big Guy.

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

"Will have" = thelo

"He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,"

Potentate = Sovereign authority = exousia =

Ability & strength to do as He pleases.

Our God is not the ultimate gambler. He Is the One who does as He pleases with the ability & strength to do it.

He is not the God of good wishes.

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

Where and when did I say........"HE WON'T SAVE IF YOU DIDN'T ASK HIM".

You are correct in your comment of...........
“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

Romans 10:13.....
" For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. "

Romans 10:13.....
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved."

May I ask you what do you think I have been saying all of this time??????

ClementofA · May 26, 2020

Major1 said:
Not so!
The Universalist false teaching runs counter to the teaching of the Bible that "all who call upon the name of the Lord" will be united to Christ and eternally saved, not all people in general.

Jesus clearly and correctly taught that those who reject him as Saviour will spend eternity in hell in toprments after they die:

Matthew 10:28

Matthew 23:33

Matthew 25:46

Luke 16:23

John 3:36

You are more than welcome to post comments from anyone you believe agrees with your agenda but none of them, including you can change what is found in the Word of God.

All that has been answered before & i'd be happy to repeat it for anyone who is open minded & interested in a sincere honest objective consideration of universalism. Or do a search of the forum where you will find many threads & posts addressing verses such as those repeatedly from a universalist perspective.

But now for something new:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).

BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently those there are, for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

Major1 · May 26, 2020

agapelove said:
Your scriptures are the furthest thing from clear and PLEASE show me which scripture you are referring to that states there will be two future comings of Christ separated by 1,007 years?! I can't seem to find that number!

Oh we care very much about what the Bible says. Do you think I am being forced to sit here and discuss Scripture with you? The number '1,000' is used figuratively all throughout the Bible (Genesis 24:60, Exodus 20:6, Deuteronomy 1:11, Deuteronomy 32:30, Hebrew 12:22), not sure why you think it is being used literally in Rev 20 or why, matter of fact, you interpret anything literally in Revelations.

Yes sir I believe in a first resurrection! And His name is Jesus Christ! Blessed and Holy are those who share in the first resurrection (Jesus Christ), for the second death has no power over them! This does not mean that the saints get their own reward ceremony at a different time under a different judgment seat. It just means they will NOT be HURT by the final judgment because they have been resurrected (WITH CHRIST) unto LIFE, while the REST OF THE DEAD will be resurrected UNTO JUDGMENT.

Premil is an INSULT to Christ's CURRENT priesthood at the RIGHT HAND OF GOD (Ephesians 1:20-23). "I am not going to argue with you over this" is code for "I refuse to look at Scriptures that challenge my doctrine". Suit yourself Mr. Very Confident. But remember the words of God: "These are the ones I look on with favor: those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word."

Butch. Thank you for your concerns. Actually you are 100% correct when you called me "Mr. Very Confident" and I thank you for doing that publicly!!!

I am completely and totally confident in the Word of God!!!!!

John 17:17......
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

The next time Jesus Comes is at The Rapture which is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.........
" Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

John 14:1-3 .......
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

THE RAPTURE CAME HAPPEN AT ANY MOMENT.

Revelation 3:3 .....
"Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."

The Bible truth is that there is NO MENTION of the Church in the Revelation.

Why will there be a Rapture??????????

1 Thessalonians 5:9 .......
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Revelation 3:10......
" Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

Now if you choose to NOT believe that the 1000 year rule of Christ then so be it. There is no reason to argue that with me as I did not write it in the Bible, I just read it.

Revelation 20:2-3
"And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time."

Revelation 20:7
"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,"

Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Revelation 20:4-5..........
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."

Now I must ask you, what other way could God have written those Scriptures that would allow you to better understand the word "ONE THOUSAND YEARS".

Second question would than have to be.....what is YOUR source of information or higher learning that has allowed YOU to change the meaning of the words "ONE THOUSAND YEARS".

Major1 · May 26, 2020

ClementofA said:
All that has been answered before & i'd be happy to repeat it for anyone who is open minded & interested in a sincere honest objective consideration of universalism. Or do a search of the forum where you will find many threads & posts addressing verses such as those repeatedly from a universalist perspective.

But now for something new:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).

BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently those there are, for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

That is not correct now is it.

You gave YOUR opinon but that is all it was and I for one do not accept it as truth.

Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

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