Purveyor of Confusion

miknik5 · May 25, 2020

agapelove said:
Okay Kylie.

Feel free to argue with thin air. I am not “changing my mind” about anything because I’ve made it clear from the beginning what I think.

“When my case went to court, the Judge threw the book at me.”

Context is important, ma’am. The judge does not literally throw the book at me. It’s exactly the sort of thing I’d expect from humans who isolate texts and make erroneous judgments. You believe the Bible cannot be trusted because of others just like you.

That was a great example...

cvanwey · May 25, 2020

agapelove said:
God says “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.” (Exodus 33:20) The definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

There exists evidence of things I haven't 'seen', and I still believe... Many claimed countries, air, other galaxies, black holes, the existence of claimed people I've never met, my great great great grand parents, insect species, atoms, gravity, etc... The question becomes, why do I believe these unseen things exist, and not God?

agapelove said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "reveal His presence". Are you expecting an angel, a supernatural miracle, words in the sky? I personally have never been contacted this way.

I have no expectations. I just feel that I have never been provided with His presence.

agapelove said:
We meet God in the quiet spaces of our lives, not through "catalysts".

Sounds like a rather impotent God then really?

If you are going to bring forth OT verse, how about Genesis 3:9–19, Genesis 4:9–15, Genesis 6:13, Genesis 7:1, Genesis 8:15, Genesis 9:1-8, and Genesis 18? And what about Paul, in the NT? What about the many anecdotal 'amazing' stories, told here on CF alone? What about the countless of other claims, made by Christians in general, regarding God's 'contact' or 'presentation'?

agapelove said:
You do not have to have something dramatic or tragic happen to you to have a change of heart. I previously told you how I have personally encountered God in my life-- in moments of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (John 4:24, Galatians 5:22-23). I am sure you have had your fair share of these experiences. When you start to see God in those places then you will be able to say God is everywhere. This is how God reveals Himself for now.

You know this because????????

Also, I'm skeptical that basic human emotion, for which we all feel, can be successfully attributed to God? Maybe we just experience emotions. Furthermore, if I have to squint, tilt my head, and really really concentrate or think about it, maybe I can then successfully 'justify' almost anything

There exists many things in life, for which I have no choice but to acknowledge as existing, whether I want them to or not; whether I prepare myself for them, or not.

So again, when you state God is not playing hide-and-seek, I beg to differ. With me, He seems to be...

agapelove said:
Exodus 33:23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

God is preparing creation to be ready to stand in the full presence of God, but we are not yet ready. I will pray for you but I hope that you will allow yourself to open your heart up to God again. I hope that your time here on CF is not for nothing.

This makes no sense. What about still-borns, infants, small children, the ones whom never hear of Jesus, the mentally handicapped, humans with Down's syndrome, earnest and heart-felt death bed confessions/conversions, etc. They cannot, or did not, 'prepare' before their deaths.

And furthermore, what exactly are they 'preparing' for? Once you cross the threshold, from earth to heaven, you are no longer you anyways... All humans will perpetually sin, until natural death. In heaven, you apparently have no more desire for sin; you are perpetually happy and filled with bliss. Otherwise, why call it 'heaven'?

agapelove said:
I have never disagreed with you on that point, so not sure why you keep bringing it up. You are not the only one who struggles with the mysteries of God! Who are you to demand things from Him? "And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:23)" Sure, three decades is a long time but the Israelites wandered the desert for FORTY and before that they were enslaved for 430. Maybe God's plan is to make you the most patient person in the world!

A. Then God will not hold it against me for being a skeptic.
B. I do not need to prepare for God's contact; for as the Bible also states "and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
C. And again, why prepare? See above...

agapelove said:
I do not know what Mormons believe, but I believe we receive a variety of rewards in the next life. The Bible depicts different "Heavenly Crowns" each believer can adorn (James 1:12, 1 Corinthians 9:25, 2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:19).

Then maybe you should see about checking into it. Maybe you do not know what you've been missing

And second of all, heaven then also looks to resemble the military; earned ranks, metals of valor... Except, in heaven, you wear them forever?

agapelove said:
A God that will save all? That God sounds more 'loving' than the one you may have been taught! I have faith that EVERYTHING God does is out of love-- even when he withholds information! There are a lot of questionable things God has done... yet He says "I know the plans I have for you! Plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future! (Jeremiah 29:11)" Why ask me what I would do? God knows INFINITELY more than me.

Because my dialogue with God is rather lacking....

I get responses from you.

And in regards to your response, if grace is bestowed upon all, I guess you will ultimately see every human in heaven anyways. If not sooner, than later... Maybe just with less 'badges' of honor? And since eternity is a long time, in the grand scheme of things, I guess it really makes no difference. Hence, why should anyone care what the Bible says? Just live your life. If THIS version of God truly exists, He's going to take you, 'purify' you where applicable, and then you will end up in the same realm as all the ones whom spent their entire life's on earth following a specific creed or code.

But I again ask you, for which you already acknowledged and concurred; but I have to bring it up again, as it is relevant here.... Millions and millions of Christians believe hell is eternal. God does not even want to correct them. And yet, many state they speak to God directly. You would think, in some of those conversations, God might reveal to them, that all are saved (eventually). And that hell is not eternal for the humans whom inhabit this specific realm.

But as you stated, 'God works in mysterious ways.'

And furthermore, what 'loving God' would put such humans through such a process, if they are going to ultimately end up where He wants them anyways?

And further still, what sort of 'loving God', would set back, and watch it all happen, knowing with infallible certainty, exactly the way it was going to go down? In the end, they all end up in heaven anyways. What does the human gain, after being in heaven? Do humans sit around, and compare stories of what God put them through before they got there?

agapelove said:
What can we really do for you if you have already decided to stand firm in your disbelief? You say you want a catalyst yet you've shut up all contact with God. It looks like for the past 36 pages people have tried to offer you evidence... now it is YOUR JOB to follow the evidence. All I've been hearing from you is "Nope, too confusing, doesn't make sense, not worth my time, I give up, I don't have a choice." Maybe you think you cannot choose what you believe but you CAN make CHOICES that AFFECT your beliefs.

I really hope you know, just because you have stopped trying does not mean God did too. Prayers to you.

Please look at my responses in a differing light

- What can you do for me? In this thread, demonstrate/affirm the conflict within the Bible. You have already fulfilled this request. And I thank you for this....

- By catalyst, I'm stating I searched for God for decades. Not once do I feel I received anything for which I could not just as well chalk up to standard naturalist daily phenomenon.

- What 'evidence' specifically have I been given, and should follow, for God?

- The title of the thread demonstrates how we have absolutely no unity among the believers AND non-believers. When you read the pages of the Bible, we have a multitude of 'confirmed' renditions. You are a testament to this; and a contributor.

And no, belief is not a choice

Otherwise, simply WILL yourself to believe the opposite of something you currently truly belief, without reason.

cvanwey · May 25, 2020

miknik5 said:
And as I said, and repeat, the FOUNDATION is sufficient...and anyone who has their feet on THE FOUNDATION it is sufficient to them...

And I ASK again... Probably three times now... How many denominations are there?

And further still, if truth is universal, shouldn't there at least exist majority agreement?

Kylie · May 25, 2020

miknik5 said:
And as I said, and repeat, the FOUNDATION is sufficient...and anyone who has their feet on THE FOUNDATION it is sufficient to them...

Repeating the same flawed claim won't make it valid.

Kylie · May 25, 2020

miknik5 said:
Deuteronomy 18 is sufficient....and THE NT fulfills this...

Remember, the people said we do not want to hear the VOICE of GOD,lest we die...and asked Moses to speak for HIM and they would listen to Moses...

GOD said,in Deuteronomy 18, they have spoken well what they have spoken and declares:

I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

Why do you think that I will be convinced by having you quote a book I don't believe?

Kylie · May 25, 2020

agapelove said:
Okay Kylie.

Feel free to argue with thin air. I am not “changing my mind” about anything because I’ve made it clear from the beginning what I think.

“When my case went to court, the Judge threw the book at me.”

Context is important, ma’am. The judge does not literally throw the book at me. It’s exactly the sort of thing I’d expect from humans who isolate texts and make erroneous judgments. You believe the Bible cannot be trusted because of others just like you.

So it just comes down to your interpretation?

agapelove · May 25, 2020

cvanwey said:
There exists evidence of things I haven't 'seen', and I still believe... Many claimed countries, air, other galaxies, black holes, the existence of claimed people I've never met, my great great great grand parents, insect species, atoms, gravity, etc... The question becomes, why do I believe these unseen things exist, and not God?

Sir you cannot compare your faith in God to your faith in Australia or your great great grandmother. Several hundred years ago a man saw an apple fall and decided to call it gravity. Then the world said "Okay sure", accepted it as reality, and came up with formulas and equations to better understand it. Truth is we know NOTHING ABOUT GRAVITY STILL, only how to think about it.

cvanwey said:
Sounds like a rather impotent God then really?

God is not a stone-hearted king sitting far far away on his giant throne in outer space. Was God impotent when he chose to manifest Himself as a low-class carpenter from Nazareth? The Jews thought so! They were expecting a MESSIAH. Was God impotent when he allowed this low-class carpenter to be spat on, kicked, pierced, and CRUCIFIED? They sure thought so! (Matthew 27:42)

The root of your disappointment is your expectations of a fantasy Messiah showing up when really God is found in the least expected places of your life-- outside of prayer, outside of church, outside of Christian Forums!

cvanwey said:
You know this because????????

Because that is where I found him, brother! I remember feeling crushed after church every week because everyone else was hands raised, on their knees, eyes closed looking like they had been POSSESSED by the Holy Spirit. I said "Why not me too, God?" I surrendered my expectations of what God was suppose to feel and look like and I started seeing Him clearly in my mother's love, in the innocence of children, in music, sunsets, laughter, friendships, kindness from strangers. I don't know your life but I really hope you don't have to squint, tilt your head, or really concentrate, to think of similar experiences.

cvanwey said:
This makes no sense. What about still-borns, infants, small children, the ones whom never hear of Jesus, the mentally handicapped, humans with Down's syndrome, earnest and heart-felt death bed confessions/conversions, etc. They cannot, or did not, 'prepare' before their deaths.

And furthermore, what exactly are they 'preparing' for? Once you cross the threshold, from earth to heaven, you are no longer you anyways... All humans will perpetually sin, until natural death. In heaven, you apparently have no more desire for sin; you are perpetually happy and filled with bliss. Otherwise, why call it 'heaven'?

Not sure where you conjured up this argument. What was it that I said gave you the impression God has something against still-borns, infants, children, mentally handicapped, etc etc??? Quite the opposite.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. -- Matthew 5:3-10

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. -- Matthew 20:16

The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' -- Matthew 25:40

cvanwey said:
A. Then God will not hold it against me for being a skeptic.

cvanwey said:
B. I do not need to prepare for God's contact; for as the Bible also states "and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
C. And again, why prepare? See above...

A. He will not. I hope you are living your best life as a skeptic.
B. No one can force you to. Like you said, I cannot force you to love someone. Likewise nothing could force me to love and listen to my mother when I was a teenager. It was only years later that I realized the depth of her affection, which then began to transform me. I will probably never fully know the depth of her affection until I have children of my own one day.
C. If I could go back to my teenage self and say "STOP. LOVE YOURSELF AND LOVE YOUR MOM." I totally would, would have saved myself a lot of heartbreak.

cvanwey said:
And second of all, heaven then also looks to resemble the military; earned ranks, metals of valor... Except, in heaven, you wear them forever?

I do not know what Heaven will be like, cvanwey. Why don't you stop creating disappointment for yourself by dropping the expectations.

cvanwey said:
And in regards to your response, if grace is bestowed upon all, I guess you will ultimately see every human in heaven anyways. If not sooner, than later... Maybe just with less 'badges' of honor? And since eternity is a long time, in the grand scheme of things, I guess it really makes no difference. Hence, why should anyone care what the Bible says? Just live your life. If THIS version of God truly exists, He's going to take you, 'purify' you where applicable, and then you will end up in the same realm as all the ones whom spent their entire life's on earth following a specific creed or code.

Yes cvanwey, live your life... to the fullest! That is really what God wants (John 10:10).

cvanwey said:
But I again ask you, for which you already acknowledged and concurred; but I have to bring it up again, as it is relevant here.... Millions and millions of Christians believe hell is eternal. God does not even want to correct them. And yet, many state they speak to God directly. You would think, in some of those conversations, God might reveal to them, that all are saved (eventually). And that hell is not eternal for the humans whom inhabit this specific realm.

cvanwey said:
But as you stated, 'God works in mysterious ways.'

And furthermore, what 'loving God' would put such humans through such a process, if they are going to ultimately end up where He wants them anyways?

And further still, what sort of 'loving God', would set back, and watch it all happen, knowing with infallible certainty, exactly the way it was going to go down? In the end, they all end up in heaven anyways. What does the human gain, after being in heaven? Do humans sit around, and compare stories of what God put them through before they got there?

Yes, God truly does work in mysterious ways!

The idea of hell is detestable to me so God chose to speak to me in a different language. There are some that find the idea of 'everyone's in' to be detestable so God speaks their language. The Father knows each child's language. In the end, when we are all grown up in Heaven, we will all sit around laughing about how immature we all were.

cvanwey said:
Please look at my responses in a differing light

- What can you do for me? In this thread, demonstrate/affirm the conflict within the Bible. You have already fulfilled this request. And I thank you for this....

- By catalyst, I'm stating I searched for God for decades. Not once do I feel I received anything for which I could not just as well chalk up to standard naturalist daily phenomenon.

- What 'evidence' specifically have I been given, and should follow, for God?

- The title of the thread demonstrates how we have absolutely no unity among the believers AND non-believers. When you read the pages of the Bible, we have a multitude of 'confirmed' renditions. You are a testament to this; and a contributor.

And no, belief is not a choice Otherwise, simply WILL yourself to believe the opposite of something you currently truly belief, without reason.

You -past tense- searched for God or are you still searching for God? I am happy to do my part in discipling others and I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted your responses, but if this is going to continue as an argument of whether God is confusing or not then I believe I've submitted. God being confusing is not a reason for you to not try. Gravity is confusing but I don't reject the idea of it.

agapelove · May 25, 2020

Kylie said:
So it just comes down to your interpretation?

Huh?

It comes down to context, ma'am. I've said that three times now.

Kylie · May 25, 2020

agapelove said:
Huh?

It comes down to context, ma'am. I've said that three times now.

Then why do so many people have so many different interpretations of the Bible?

agapelove · May 25, 2020

Kylie said:
Then why do so many people have so many different interpretations of the Bible?

Because many people do not know how to read context as you have just proved.

dcalling · May 25, 2020

cvanwey said:
Sounds like you do not have much desire to address it You skipped right over it, and I provided the post number for you. It's #620. If you care not to find it, I'm not going to do your work for you.

I won't do your work for you either

cvanwey said:
If prayers are only answered, according to His will, then petitionary/intercessory prayer just might be meaningless? Which again, may suggest contradiction to the many verses I listed prior.

Furthermore, you missed another point. Apparently, God could not respond to the request at all, or, He could tell you no... However, if He never furnishes reason(s) why, then is this really a 'caring', 'loving', and human interacting God to begin with - (Psalm 145:9-13; Psalm 145:17)?

What prayers should a human expect for Him to answer, if He is going to deny genuine request(s) for clarification in verse?

I have question regarding this as well, so won't pretend I am an expert on this.

cvanwey said:
If the answer is yes, the answer is yes. It builds upon my point(s) And furthermore, we have many other claims form the Bible, along with countless anecdotal claims regarding answers from God.

See above

Or in my case, never. Even when others request upon my behalf.

No. You switched to another argument. But it's okay

don't think so but fine

cvanwey said:
We just went backwards like 200 posts again. You are arguing the 'no true Scotsman fallacy' again.

"In this form of faulty reasoning one's belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn't apply to a supposedly 'true' example. This kind of post-rationalization is a way of avoiding valid criticisms of one's argument."

If a YEC believes in a literal translation, later majors in science, later sees conflict, curses God for deceiving him/her, later denouces Christianity, later reads another book explaining how evolution and the Bible can ajoin, believes in God again, and asks for forgiveness, of course this human was a Christian prior. Why?.....

The YEC was a literalist. They likely spent much time shutting their ears to opposing claims, for which they think are 'from the devil.' However, when enough evidence was presented to cause him/her to no longer believe it is literal, and hence, rebuke their believed upon God, and later, denounce the concept of God, this does not mean his/her prior belief was not 'strong.' It just means, in light of the new evidence, (s)he has no choice but to be honest with themselves.

It is not a true scotsman fallacy, as I showed you again and again

. someone who curses God is definitely not a real Christian, as a real one loves God beyond anything else in this world.

So in your example, YEC or OEC, does not matter if he/she takes the Bible literally, if he/she cursed God, he/she is not a real Christian. In my example, when Bohr argues against Einstein, even when Einstein win, he still has faith in his own argument, and even after Einstein was supposedly disprove by experiments, others continued to have faith in Einstein and might have hope to debunk the other side.

Kylie · May 25, 2020

agapelove said:
Because many people do not know how to read context as you have just proved.

Oh, but you've got it right and everyone else has it wrong. Despite the fact that they are just as sure that they've got it right as you are.

Kylie · May 25, 2020

dcalling said:
I won't do your work for you either

They literally just gave you the post number...

It is not a true scotsman fallacy, as I showed you again and again . someone who curses God is definitely not a real Christian, as a real one loves God beyond anything else in this world.

So in your example, YEC or OEC, does not matter if he/she takes the Bible literally, if he/she cursed God, he/she is not a real Christian. In my example, when Bohr argues against Einstein, even when Einstein win, he still has faith in his own argument, and even after Einstein was supposedly disprove by experiments, others continued to have faith in Einstein and might have hope to debunk the other side.

That is literally a perfect example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

agapelove · May 25, 2020

Kylie said:
Oh, but you've got it right and everyone else has it wrong. Despite the fact that they are just as sure that they've got it right as you are.

You love to put words into people's mouths don't you? Welcome to the conversation. Feel free to ask @cvanwey I have never once claimed I've "got it right". I even warned him to take any answers from me with a grain of salt!

There will be times where I fail to see the context, and the same goes for you and the next person, because we ALL have blindspots.

Kylie · May 25, 2020

agapelove said:
You love to put words into people's mouths don't you? Welcome to the conversation. Feel free to ask @cvanwey I have never once claimed I've "got it right". I even warned him to take any answers from me with a grain of salt!

There will be times where I fail to see the context, and the same goes for you and the next person, because we ALL have blindspots.

So you aren't claiming that you've got it right, but you ARE claiming that I've got it wrong.

agapelove · May 26, 2020

Kylie said:
So you aren't claiming that you've got it right, but you ARE claiming that I've got it wrong.

Feel free to get a second opinion, or a third, and maybe a fourth.

Let me know what they say.

Kylie · May 26, 2020

agapelove said:
Feel free to get a second opinion, or a third, and maybe a fourth.

Let me know what they say.

Okay.

I checked what was said by Frank Zindler (Interim President and current member of the Board of Directors at American Atheists), and Dan Barker (who was an evangelical Christian preacher and composer for 19 years before leaving Christianity in 1984 and is currently co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation with his wife). They both agree with me. SOURCE 1 SOURCE 2

agapelove · May 26, 2020

Kylie said:
Okay.

I checked what was said by Frank Zindler (Interim President and current member of the Board of Directors at American Atheists), and Dan Barker (who was an evangelical Christian preacher and composer for 19 years before leaving Christianity in 1984 and is currently co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation with his wife). They both agree with me. SOURCE 1 SOURCE 2

Those men sound very reputable but unfortunately your sources have done nada to prove that either one of us is right. They are simply pointing out a contradiction which you have already done without their help. I have tried my best to help clear up your apparent confusion concerning this contradiction but if you wish to believe that Moses literally saw God’s face and Jacob literally wrestled with God then you are free to. Good luck finding some sources that will support that though. (Leaders of organizations that do not even think God is real will probably not be very helpful in this debate.)

Kylie · May 26, 2020

agapelove said:
Those men sound very reputable but unfortunately your sources have done nada to prove that either one of us is right. They are simply pointing out a contradiction which you have already done without their help. I have tried my best to help clear up your apparent confusion concerning this contradiction but if you wish to believe that Moses literally saw God’s face and Jacob literally wrestled with God then you are free to. Good luck finding some sources that will support that though. (Leaders of organizations that do not even think God is real will probably not be very helpful in this debate.)

Ah, so people who do not believe in God can't help me, but people who DO believe in God can? Funny how if I posted a source from a believer who was saying how it WASN'T a contradiction, you wouldn't have a problem with it. Those double standards are icky, aren't they?

agapelove · May 26, 2020

Kylie said:
Ah, so people who do not believe in God can't help me, but people who DO believe in God can? Funny how if I posted a source from a believer who was saying how it WASN'T a contradiction, you wouldn't have a problem with it. Those double standards are icky, aren't they?

Ma’am your argument is that Moses literally saw God’s face and that Jacob literally wrestled with God. How can people who do not believe God EXISTS help support that argument?

The only logic you are defeating here is your own.

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