Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Major1

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Sorry, they're not. As I said, the Bible states plainly that the dead know nothing, that their thoughts perish the day they die, and that they cannot praise God. Those are plain statements of fact. Parables, allegories, and figures of speech are not literal. The Bible often uses figurative language. We need to be able to discern between what is figurative and what is literal.

How would you then explain the book of Hebrews, where it pictures life as a great arena, with those who have gone before us cheering us on in our daily spiritual struggles (see Hebrews 12:1).
 
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Major1

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Hello Blade. The Word of God is "Good News" not "Sad but true news".

By the way, apocatastasis was an orthodox belief in early Christianity 2000 YEARS AGO. Wasn't the end of the world back then, isn't the end of the world now.

You are correct, kind of. The earth still has a few more years.

However the Rapture can happen at any moment and then there will be 7 years remaining till Jesus comes again at Armageddon.

Then He will rule for 1000 years and then the end will come.

2 Peter 3:10 ………..
“The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.”

Then God will create a “new heaven and a new earth” as told to us in Rev. 21:1, which will include the “New Jerusalem” (v. 2), the capital city of heaven, a place of perfect holiness, which will come down from heaven to the new earth.
 
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Butch5

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How would you then explain the book of Hebrews, where it pictures life as a great arena, with those who have gone before us cheering us on in our daily spiritual struggles (see Hebrews 12:1).

The cloud of witnesses? I believe Paul is explaining how they lived. Their lives were a witness to us and how we should live. John uses similar language of things that aren't alive and calls them witnesses.

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (1 Jn. 5:6-8 KJV)

John says that the breath the water and the blood bear witness. These all bear witness to Christ. However, they are not alive. From this we can see that in the Bible not all that bear witness are alive.
 
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Major1

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JEALOUSY!

6be04-15678294457158-500.jpg


That's a good one, friend. Did you notice that NOTHING in that post you are quoting is the "Word of God"? I see you still have done zilch with the scriptures I provided you several pages back regarding your "two judgments" gibberish. Looks like you are the one refusing to look at scripture.

AGAIN......there are NO Scriptures that you can post in which the false teaching of Universalism can be validated,

I posted the Scriptures for you explaining the Bema Seat and the Great White throne judgment. To say that I did "ZELCH" is the just not the truth is it.

You do not like it, you do not accept the Word of God but you can not say that I did not respond.

From post #283 where I said clearly...………..
No sir I do not agree. There will be TWO judgments.

The Bema Seat of Christ is immediately after the Rapture. It is described in
1 Corth. 3:10-15 as well as other places.

Romans 14:10 …………….
"But you who eat vegetables only – why do you judge your brother or sister? And you who eat everything – why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God"

As I stated, it is a reward ceremony instead of a judgment of sin. Everyone there will be believers and their fate has already been determined. Everyone there is going to heaven.

The second judgment is the Great WHite Throne judgment as seen in
Revelation 20:11-15...…….
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

As it can be clearly seen, ALL the people at this judgment are lost and ALL wind up in the Lake of Fire.

You are not arguing with me on this but instead on the Bible as it teaches both of these judgments.
 
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Major1

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The cloud of witnesses? I believe Paul is explaining how they lived. Their lives were a witness to us and how we should live. John uses similar language of things that aren't alive and calls them witnesses.

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (1 Jn. 5:6-8 KJV)

John says that the breath the water and the blood bear witness. These all bear witness to Christ. However, they are not alive. From this we can see that in the Bible not all that bear witness are alive.

May I say to you that your exegesis is WHAT YOU WANT those Scriptures to say.

For proper context consider the 2nd verse of Hebrews 12...…...
"looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

This group of people is seen "LOOKING UNTO JESUS". Where is Jesus??????
"at the right hand of the throne of God."

This group of saints HAVE RUN THE RACE OF LIFE and are watching us run ours.


Is there some other meaning of the word in verse #1...."WITNESESS"?​
 
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Major1

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The cloud of witnesses? I believe Paul is explaining how they lived. Their lives were a witness to us and how we should live. John uses similar language of things that aren't alive and calls them witnesses.

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (1 Jn. 5:6-8 KJV)

John says that the breath the water and the blood bear witness. These all bear witness to Christ. However, they are not alive. From this we can see that in the Bible not all that bear witness are alive.

I would agree to some extent. The phrase “ bear witness" comes from a
Jewish legal principle, that uncorroborated testimony doesn’t count.

Creation bears witness to the glory of Christ. But creation is alive isn't it?

What about the rocks? They are not alive as we know them but in the Bible Jesus said in Luke 19:40...…….
“I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

Then there is Colossians 1:16-17......
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
 
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agapelove

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Please excuse me and forgive my dear lady. I never looked up any information on you to know. I apologize to you.

Please allow me to say again......there are NO refutations needed to be done on Scriptures posted by you or any other Universalists.

The Universalist position is just another idea of

Purgatory and as a matter of Bible truth, there is not one single Bible Scripture which says that there is a 2nd chance to be saved after death.

You are exactly right sir there are NO SECOND CHANCES because JESUS DID NOT NEED ANOTHER CHANCE. His mission was completed AT THE CROSS.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Luke 4:18 "He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free."

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18 One act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

Deuteronomy 20:4 For the Lord your God is he who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.

Hebrews 2:14-15 Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the Devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh.

Colossians 2:14-15 Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

2 Timothy 1:10 And which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

AGAIN......there are NO Scriptures that you can post in which the false teaching of Universalism can be validated,

I posted the Scriptures for you explaining the Bema Seat and the Great White throne judgment. To say that I did "ZELCH" is the just not the truth is it.

You do not like it, you do not accept the Word of God but you can not say that I did not respond.

From post #283 where I said clearly...………..
No sir I do not agree. There will be TWO judgments.

The Bema Seat of Christ is immediately after the Rapture. It is described in
1 Corth. 3:10-15 as well as other places.

Romans 14:10 …………….
"But you who eat vegetables only – why do you judge your brother or sister? And you who eat everything – why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God"

As I stated, it is a reward ceremony instead of a judgment of sin. Everyone there will be believers and their fate has already been determined. Everyone there is going to heaven.

The second judgment is the Great WHite Throne judgment as seen in
Revelation 20:11-15...…….
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

As it can be clearly seen, ALL the people at this judgment are lost and ALL wind up in the Lake of Fire.

You are not arguing with me on this but instead on the Bible as it teaches both of these judgments.

Your two scriptures offer no significant evidence to prove they are different judgments. The "judgment seat of God" and the GWT are THE SAME SEAT. I have already proved this in post #282 but instead of properly addressing the scriptures you divert with your own. When the Son of Man comes he will sit on his GLORIOUS THRONE (oh wait.. which one???) and give rewards to the righteous and judgment to the wicked. He has set A DAY to do this (oh wait... which day???). The HOUR (oh wait... which hour???) is coming when ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out.
You are correct, kind of. The earth still has a few more years.

However the Rapture can happen at any moment and then there will be 7 years remaining till Jesus comes again at Armageddon.

Then He will rule for 1000 years and then the end will come.

2 Peter 3:10 ………..
“The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.”

Then God will create a “new heaven and a new earth” as told to us in Rev. 21:1, which will include the “New Jerusalem” (v. 2), the capital city of heaven, a place of perfect holiness, which will come down from heaven to the new earth.
Sir there are many things wrong with your premillenial doctrine, including the fallacious belief that there are two separate judgments. There is a thread going on somewhere about this so feel free to educate yourself.
 
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Saint Steven

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Wonderful!

Our God who is the Author & Finisher of ta pavnte is unable to finish what He began in His beloved Son, the Lord Lesous.

Adam1 = "many made sinners" > > >

Last Adam = the same many "made righteous."
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Butch5

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May I say to you that your exegesis is WHAT YOU WANT those Scriptures to say.

For proper context consider the 2nd verse of Hebrews 12...…...
"looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

This group of people is seen "LOOKING UNTO JESUS". Where is Jesus??????
"at the right hand of the throne of God."

This group of saints HAVE RUN THE RACE OF LIFE and are watching us run ours.


Is there some other meaning of the word in verse #1...."WITNESESS"?​

Can I say the same to you? For one to conclude that these witnesses are alive one must first come to the text believing that it is possible for man to live apart from the body. If one comes to the text already believing that one will conclude that they are alive. It's actually circular reasoning. This passage doesn't say they are alive. When Paul speaks of these witnesses he describes their lives. How does his describing their lives indicate that they are alive. He even says of them, these all died. If they're dead how are they watching? I've already shown that the Bible speaks of witnesses that are not alive. so, we do have a precedence for non living witnesses. Can you show me precedence for living dead people?
 
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Major1

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You are exactly right sir there are NO SECOND CHANCES because JESUS DID NOT NEED ANOTHER CHANCE. His mission was completed AT THE CROSS.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Luke 4:18 "He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free."

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18 One act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

Deuteronomy 20:4 For the Lord your God is he who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.

Hebrews 2:14-15 Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the Devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh.

Colossians 2:14-15 Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

2 Timothy 1:10 And which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.



Your two scriptures offer no significant evidence to prove they are different judgments. The "judgment seat of God" and the GWT are THE SAME SEAT. I have already proved this in post #282 but instead of properly addressing the scriptures you divert with your own. When the Son of Man comes he will sit on his GLORIOUS THRONE (oh wait.. which one???) and give rewards to the righteous and judgment to the wicked. He has set A DAY to do this (oh wait... which day???). The HOUR (oh wait... which hour???) is coming when ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out.

Sir there are many things wrong with your premillenial doctrine, including the fallacious belief that there are two separate judgments. There is a thread going on somewhere about this so feel free to educate yourself.

Thanks for your concern but I am well educated on this subject.

I am sorry and perplexed that you understand that there is only one judgment. The Scriptures I posted for you clearly show that there will be TWO judgments separated by 1007 years.

Not that you folks with the Universalist agenda care about what the Bible actually does say, however I will ask you to one more consider Revelation 20:2-3...…..
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Here we see that Satan is bound and in hell FOR 1000 YEARS.

Then AFTER 1000 YEARS he is loosened. The point is that 1000 years have gone by and then in verse 11 we see that after Satan has temped the population on earth there is a JUDGMENT for the lost of the eart plus the ones who had already died of all the ages of time......
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

So what happens to all the lost in verse 14......
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Do you actually believe that the Born again saints of God are going to go through THAT Judgment?????

Before you answer, read carefully Rev. 20:6...…….
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

If there is a FIRST Resurrection does that not tell you that there will be a SECOND?

If you do.....where are they found in Rev. 20????

If "MY" premillennial" view is wrong then I am very glad to know that I am in some really good company!!!!

I have studied extensively all the views of the end of this age. I am very confident that the "Premillennial" view is the only one available which allows ALL the Scriptures to fit completely within the Word of God's teaching.

Since you reject it then may the Lord bless you and give you peace and joy in the dangerous days as I am not going to argue with you over this.
 
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Butch5

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I would agree to some extent. The phrase “ bear witness" comes from a
Jewish legal principle, that uncorroborated testimony doesn’t count.

Creation bears witness to the glory of Christ. But creation is alive isn't it?

What about the rocks? They are not alive as we know them but in the Bible Jesus said in Luke 19:40...…….
“I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

Then there is Colossians 1:16-17......
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

What this boils down to is, can a man live apart from the body? If yes, then these passages can be understood as people being alive after death. If no, then there must be a meaning other than the one so many come to. It is my contention that a man cannot live apart from the body. I've studied this in the Scriptures long and hard and have not found anything that teaches that a man can live apart from the body. That idea is simply being brought to the text. If you can make that case I'm all ears.
 
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Major1

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Can I say the same to you? For one to conclude that these witnesses are alive one must first come to the text believing that it is possible for man to live apart from the body. If one comes to the text already believing that one will conclude that they are alive. It's actually circular reasoning. This passage doesn't say they are alive. When Paul speaks of these witnesses he describes their lives. How does his describing their lives indicate that they are alive. He even says of them, these all died. If they're dead how are they watching? I've already shown that the Bible speaks of witnesses that are not alive. so, we do have a precedence for non living witnesses. Can you show me precedence for living dead people?

Yes. The Spirit and soul goes to be with the Lord at death.

Luke 23:43...….
"“Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.”

Stephen prayed in Acts 7:59....
“Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”.

He did not seek to postpone death or to fight it off. His murderers held no fear for him. He remembered the words of Jesus in Luke 12:4....
“Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do”.

2 Corth 12: 1-4...……..
"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth;) How that He was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter ".
 
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Major1

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What this boils down to is, can a man live apart from the body? If yes, then these passages can be understood as people being alive after death. If no, then there must be a meaning other than the one so many come to. It is my contention that a man cannot live apart from the body. I've studied this in the Scriptures long and hard and have not found anything that teaches that a man can live apart from the body. That idea is simply being brought to the text. If you can make that case I'm all ears.

Now, if what you think is true and the body/soul/spirit all die at death, then what in the world do we do with all the Scriptures that explain the Rapture where we are caught up in the air to be with God forever in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".

How do you explain the 2nd death in Rev. 20:11-14. IF the body and soul is dead than that would mean hell is the grave which is exactly the opposite of Rev. 20:11-14.

You see, in what I have studied, also for a very long time, there will be TWO Resurrections. One is for the Saints of all the ages and the second is in Revelation 20 which 1007 years after Armageddon when the LOST will be resurrected to be judged at the Great WHite Thrown of Christ.
 
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Major1

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Big Guy: There are other magnificent articulations the "Gang of 4 +" would rather see you love, but alas the gang are not equipped with what only the Living One can do!

I am sure that means something to someone. Just not me.
 
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The very last thing that a Universalist believer wants to see is Scriptures.


So you concede that there is not one single verse, in either testament, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking which clearly, unequivocally states that all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, will be saved, even after death.
What UR-ites have is a list of out-of-context proof texts from which UR-ites infer their doctrines. Much like this Matt 27:5 "Judas hanged himself." Luk 10:37 "Go thou and do likewise."

Well, we know that you agree that there are a number of different passages that appear to teach universalism:

...
Did Paul teach that all men will be saved, regardless? These verses seem to say that.
* Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
* Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
* 1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
* 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Would you like to add some more verses to your list of UR verses? Such as any from the following list:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Micah 7:18b he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. (KJV)

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls *which* I have made. (KJV)

Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

Jn 1:9 That [Christ] was the true Light which, coming into the world, gives light to every man.

Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Jn 6:33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

Jn 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Jn 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jn 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Rom 11:32-33 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

1Cor 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

2Cor 5:14-15, 19 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. ...that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Col 1:20 …and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in
heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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ClementofA

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The very last thing that a Universalist believer wants to see is Scriptures.

I'm still awaiting a comprehensive response to this:

1 Cor.3:15 does not speak of Universalism.

Did you read the right verse:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 ...….
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins."

100% True for ALL who choose God.

Those words are not added to Mt.1:21:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

BTW the book of Matthew is the first book of the NT, Revelation being the last. In the very first chapter of the first book of the NT, God declares the end from the beginning:

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa.46:10)

100% correct.
Matthew 15:24
"He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

And then He saved the "worst of sinners" whom He sent to both Jews & Gentiles, for Love Omnipotent desires to save all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6). All would include people like Pharoah, Judas, Hitler, etc.

"Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

Conclusion: All will be saved."

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?


We gentiles are now able to be saved because the Jews rejected their Messiah.

Rom.11:26....
Again...the misapplication/understanding of the word "ALL" leads to a false gospel.

"ALL" = Everyone WHO comes to Christ by faith before they die will go to heaven. There are no 2nd chances.

Sorry, Rom 11:26 says no such thing.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Rev.5:13
100% correct. I do not know why you posted it because there is not one word there to indicate Universal salvation.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

There are those creatures "under the earth", i.e. the wicked dead (e.g. Hitler) in their graves & demons in "hell" worshipping the Lamb. Which is a reference to the one who takes away the sin of the world (i.e. the cosmos, the universe, Jn.1:29).

The only other NT reference to "creature" in the context of salvation is this:

Js.1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 By his own choice, he gave us birth by the word of truth so that we would be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

We, the believers, are merely the "firstfruits" of salvation which will be obtained by all His creatures.

Those believers at that time were just the firstfruits of the harvest of salvation "of his creatures".

Isa.45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"You forget that evangelicals claim that God is omnipotent, infinitely patient, and all-wise, but upon further consideration they actually believe God lacks all 3 qualities. Once people reject Him in this life, God doesn't know how to give them another chance after death. Why not? Because He is just not resourceful enough to give them this new opportunity. You see, Clement, when Jesus preaches to the wicked "spirits -in "prison" (= Hell--1 Peter 3:19; 4:6), Jesus never considered the possibility that some of them might respond, and so, He forgot to give the altar call! And when, Christ anticipates every knee on earth, in heaven, and in Hell bowing after death and confessing Him as Lord, He's sorta stuck with all those lost souls in heaven {Philippians 2:9-11). What Paul doesn't tell you here is that there is a trap door under all these lost souls. So after Jesus gets the worship and confession of His Lordship, He sneakily pulls the lever and all those lost souls fall screaming back to Hell." LOL.

Rom 5:18
All men… all men - Paul is using all men with two different meanings for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in the Hebrew Old Testament, which is similar Paul's repetition of the phrase the many in Romans 5:15 (note). The first all covers all humanity who are born into Adam. The second all refers to that part of the first all who by grace through faith are reborn into the Last Adam, Christ (Paul repeatedly emphasizes righteousness and faith - see notes Romans 1:16; 17; 3:22; 3:28; 4:5; 4:13. To reiterate - Paul is not teaching universal salvation.)
Romans 5:18-19 Commentary | Precept Austin

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

...continued next post...
 
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ClementofA

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Col.1:16
AGAIN....the misunderstanding or purposefully false teaching leads to erroneous doctrine.

The verse you used in Colossians 1:16 is speaking of universal sovereignty and not universal salvation. Jesus is the King of kings. All authority has been given to him in heaven and on earth. Though all will bow before him, some will bow as his children and others as defeated enemies.
Such will it be on the day of judgment. Some will go to an everlasting heaven (new heavens and new earth), and others to an everlasting hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 9:44). Universalism - Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:20


16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-7138/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Read more: What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

1 Cor.15:22
1 Cor.15:28
AGAIN.... the wrong understanding of the word "ALL" leads to error.

The inaccurate teaching that the word "all" in scripture, is "everything, all with no exceptions" is easily defeated in light of scripture.

Carelessness and wanton disregard for scripture is a trademark for false doctrine. Scripture clearly removes any ambiguity and clearly defines groups of nations, groups of believer's versus unbeliever's, groups of the Jews versus the Gentiles, those receiving eternal life versus eternal damnation.

The Universalist by spinning/misappropriating the word "ALL" (among others) is caught in a hopeless paradox that cannot be explained in light of scripture.The Reasons Why Universalism is False

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."


Good day my friend and thanks for the questions you needed clarified.

Questions i needed clarified? Nonsense, i said no such thing. Rather i posted scriptures showing you that universal salvation is the teaching of the Sacred Scriptures.
 
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Major1

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Can I say the same to you? For one to conclude that these witnesses are alive one must first come to the text believing that it is possible for man to live apart from the body. If one comes to the text already believing that one will conclude that they are alive. It's actually circular reasoning. This passage doesn't say they are alive. When Paul speaks of these witnesses he describes their lives. How does his describing their lives indicate that they are alive. He even says of them, these all died. If they're dead how are they watching? I've already shown that the Bible speaks of witnesses that are not alive. so, we do have a precedence for non living witnesses. Can you show me precedence for living dead people?

Paul describing their lives is YOU opinion. That is what YOU want it to say.

You have completely ignored the CONTEXT of Hebrews 11. Paul lists ALL the saints who have died in the faith of God. ALL persisted in their lives but what happened to every single person he listed in chapter 11.....THEY ALL DIED.

Then consider the 1st word in chapter 12....."WHEREFORE, SEEING WE ALSO ARE COMPASSED ABOUT WITH SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES...…….".

You just can not miss the fact that those who died in faith are in heaven looking at us here run our race of life.
 
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ClementofA

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Agreed!!!!!!

The Universalist theology is the height of modern "Liberalism".


In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages. It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley
 
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