Does the recently confirmed existence of UfO's pose a threat to Christianity?

BobRyan · May 15, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Those wheels were thought to be the wheels of Elijah’s chariot. But there is nothing to indicate they are spacecraft.

Ezekiel is nowhere near Elijah in Ezek 1 - not in time or space/location

4 As I looked, behold, a storm wind was coming from the north, a great cloud with fire flashing forth continually and a bright light around it, and in its midst something like glowing metal in the midst of the fire. 5 Within it there were figures resembling four living beings. And this was their appearance: they had human form. ...13 In the midst of the living beings there was something that looked like burning coals of fire, like torches darting back and forth among the living beings. The fire was bright, and lightning was flashing from the fire. 14 And the living beings ran to and fro like bolts of lightning.

15 Now as I looked at the living beings, behold, there was one wheel on the earth beside the living beings, for each of the four of them. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their workmanship was like sparkling beryl, and all four of them had the same form, their appearance and workmanship being as if one wheel were within another. 17 Whenever they moved, they moved in any of their four directions without turning as they moved. 18 As for their rims they were lofty and awesome, and the rims of all four of them were full of eyes round about. 19 Whenever the living beings moved, the wheels moved with them. And whenever the living beings rose from the earth, the wheels rose also. 20 Wherever the spirit was about to go, they would go in that direction. And the wheels rose close beside them; for the spirit of the living beings was in the wheels. 21 Whenever those went, these went; and whenever those stood still, these stood still. And whenever those rose from the earth, the wheels rose close beside them; for the spirit of the living beings was in the wheels.

It would take a great deal of imagination to recast all that into "Elijah and his chariot" when Elijah was not contemporary with Isaiah by about 300 years.

Jipsah · May 22, 2020

The Liturgist said:
I think as Christians what we need to do is educate our fellow Christians on science, and if we are clergy, without wasting time in our sermons on UFOs, letting it be known not from the pulpit but in social settings, that the scientific consensus is that it is highly unlikely we are being visited by beings from another star system due to the vast differences and the extreme difficulty of interstellar travel, and more likely explanations involve experimental aircraft, radar malfunction, optical illusions, and natural phenomena like ball lightning.

RFT

BobRyan · May 22, 2020

The Liturgist said:
I think as Christians what we need to do is educate our fellow Christians on science, and if we are clergy, without wasting time in our sermons on UFOs, letting it be known not from the pulpit but in social settings, that the scientific consensus is that it is highly unlikely we are being visited by beings from another star system due to the vast differences and the extreme difficulty of interstellar travel, and more likely explanations involve experimental aircraft, radar malfunction, optical illusions, and natural phenomena like ball lightning.

And it used to be that the scientific consensus was no "bending space time" for cold fusion or traveling through water and air without any difference in flight. Only later to find that that patent by the Navy is approved as being "operational". Turns out "our limit" for technology is not "The unmovable standard for the entire universe"

sea5763 · May 25, 2020

BobRyan · May 25, 2020

sea5763 said:
Obviously I dont know. But wouldn't it be funny if the angels and demons were flying those UFOs? Like the Angel's really do walk in physical form amongst us and some entertain angels unaware? Or what about how the Bible says that satan is the prince of the air? I think it would be really funny if the rapture happened by all the Christian's being taken in UFOs to heaven? Or what about how the Bible says that Jesus will come back the same way He left, from the air at the mount of olives? I would laugh so hard if all the people calling the UFOs and aliens ancient gods were all set to bow down to whatever aliens came from the sky and then the only aliens they witness are Jesus and His angels and saints at the second coming? Their expressions would be priceless. It's possible it could be other life forms too. Unless or until one parks on the ground and says hi we probably will have no idea of what they are doing other than watching if they are truly there to begin with

Possibilities
1. They are all "good guys" as you appear to suggest. Good angels and Christ. So then no risk whether you get it right or wrong it will all be just fine. If you avoid them thinking they are demons -- you are still just fine. No downside to being wrong on this one.

2. They are all bad guys - and those who think them good are setup to fail. and you are at great risk if you get this wrong and they will for sure mess with christianity's view of God heaven creation the gospel etc - a wide open field for false doctrine swallowed hook-line-and-sinker.

3. They are innocent vacationers from other worlds who simply forgot to check-in with God and findout that this planet is quaranteened with the greatest demon in the entire universe being called "the god of tis world" 2 Cor 4:4. So then if you get this wrong and avoid them thinking they are evil - still no downside to being wrong.

It looks to me like you only lose "big time" in one of the scenarios.

sea5763 · May 25, 2020

Davy · May 25, 2020

BobRyan said:
Sept 2019 the U.S. Navy confirms existence of UFOs with hard evidence including visual sightings over a period of years -- and also tracking them on radar as well as engaging them in arial maneuver (dog fights) where they are not firing on anything just trying to follow/track it.

Does your view of Christianity view this as a threat to Christianity? a threat to evangelism in the context of a public being informed that UFO's are real and not merely swamp gas? Or will it increase the ability to evangelize the public in favor of Christianity in your view?

Many people who have been discussing this idea for a long time ... claim that publicly admitting to it would be a problem for Christianity.
....

Firstly, there is no such thing as aliens written of in God's Word. There are fallen angels written about though (Genesis 6).

It does not create a problem for Christianity UNLESS... one believes the foolish ideas spread about UFOs.

I had friends in the USAF on flight status that admitted seeing UFOs that flew like no known aircraft, ninety degree immediate right angle turns, zips to multiple high mach speeds, maneuvers that known aircraft still cannot do. There's been plenty enough airline and military pilots that witnessed these things, so to me those who don't care to look into it just show they have fear, because people fear what they don't understand.

What Ezekiel saw in Ezekiel 1 was some kind of space craft. He said it was the color of amber, which in Hebrew is the word chashmal, meaning highly polished bronze (Strong's no. 2830).

It's legs were like the legs like calf's feet, and it sparkled like burnished brass.

They all went straight forward, wither the spirit was to go, they went, and they turned not when they went. How's that they 'turned not when they went'? When we drive vehicles and turn, the front of the vehicle points in the direction we're turning. But what if our vehicle were round, circular? Someone seeing it turn wouldn't necessarily recognize where its front was. That's what this is pointing, a round, circular object.

Its appearance was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they went, they went upon their four sides. That is Ezekiel trying to describe a wheel turned on its side, like a saucer. Usually a wheel is turned vertically, like on a car or truck, etc. But Ezekiel saw this object's works as a wheel within a wheel, turned horizontally. That may possibly point to its construction in layers, the wheels idea being circular rings of the construction. And their rings were full of eyes round about. Port windows??

I have no problem with it being a extra-terrestrial craft. Reason is, I believe Genesis 6 literally as written about the event during Noah's day when the "sons of God" (angels) saw the daughters of men and took wives of them, and produced a giant hybrid offspring which God told Israel to wipe out. The Smithsonian has been pretty thorough in hiding that evidence of the giant hybrids, but not quite good enough.

Our Lord Jesus warned us that the days just before His 2nd coming would be like the days of Noe (Noah), they were eating and drinking and giving and taking in marriage until the flood came and took them all away. Who were the main ones in Noah's day taking in marriage? It was the fallen angels. Who's to say they aren't getting ready to come back to earth again? Oh, our Lord Jesus did show us this...

Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

BobRyan · May 25, 2020

Davy said:
Firstly, there is no such thing as aliens written of in God's Word.

There are fallen angels in Rev 12 and also good ones mentioned in Rev 4 and in Ezek 1 and 2. And there are "myriads and myriads" in Daniel 7... of "something" some assembly of something. The "Holy watchers" of Daniel 5 etc.

Davy said:
There are fallen angels written about though (Genesis 6).

There are no angels at all mentioned in Genesis 6.

Davy said:
It does not create a problem for Christianity UNLESS... one believes the foolish ideas spread about UFOs.

The foolish ideas in the UFO narrative are a wide open field for Satan to spin any yarn he likes.

Davy said:
I had friends in the USAF on flight status that admitted seeing UFOs that flew like no known aircraft, ninety degree immediate right angle turns, zips to multiple high mach speeds, maneuvers that known aircraft still cannot do. There's been plenty enough airline and military pilots that witnessed these things, so to me those who don't care to look into it just show they have fear, because people fear what they don't understand.

No doubt they are seeing real technology very far out there. The Navy admitted this last year and formally did an announcement on that same point this year in April saying it is the real deal.

BobRyan · May 25, 2020

sea5763 said:
I havent thought about it like that. But yeah in Revelation it says dont follow doctrine even if brought to you by Angel's if it is contrary to the Bible. I'll stick with that

True. (BTW that's Gal 1:6-9 )

Davy · May 28, 2020

BobRyan said:
There are no angels at all mentioned in Genesis 6.

Of course there definitely are! You don't know what you're talking about.

The "sons of God" was a phrase used to point to the angels in Old Testament times. When Satan came to present himself at God's throne per the Book of Job, the "sons of God" came with him, which anyone saying those were flesh men shows their Biblical ignorance.

The foolish ideas in the UFO narrative are a wide open field for Satan to spin any yarn he likes.

Some folks are simply not privy to understanding mysteries that God shows His faithful servants in His Word. The reason those folks lack is usually because of their carnal thinking with their flesh determining the results of most of their thoughts. They don't understand about the world that then was, nor the world to come, and how the things of this present world are temporary and assigned to perish.

BobRyan · May 29, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
There are no angels at all mentioned in Genesis 6.

Davy said:
Of course there definitely are! You don't know what you're talking about.

The "sons of God" was a phrase used to point to the angels

Here is a statement about conditions before the cross.

Deut 32:8
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

Matt 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

in Old Testament times. When Satan came to present himself at God's throne per the Book of Job, the "sons of God" came with him, which anyone saying those were flesh men shows their Biblical ignorance.

Davy said:
Some folks are simply not privy to understanding mysteries that God shows His faithful servants in His Word. .

or is that eisegesis? -- inserting a preference?

You have free will and can believe what you want - but when you say it is "in the text" it cannot be confined to simply "in a preference for the text" or in an insert -- but "in the text"

The Liturgist · May 30, 2020

BobRyan said:
And it used to be that the scientific consensus was no "bending space time" for cold fusion

And it still is; there has been no proof that the cold fusion hypothesis is real. On the other hand, the theory of relativity has been one of the most successful, well-proven theories in science.

or traveling through water and air without any difference in flight. Only later to find that that patent by the Navy is approved as being "operational".

Wha?

Turns out "our limit" for technology is not "The unmovable standard for the entire universe"

No one is saying that; for example, science shows us possibilities for advanced spacecraft like Project Orion, which are in several respects beyond our current engineering capabilities, but still entirely theoretically possible.

BobRyan · May 30, 2020

The Liturgist said:
And it still is; there has been no proof that the cold fusion hypothesis is real.

Physics...

cold fusion
A Breakthrough In American Energy Dominance? U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

What Is Nuclear Fusion? | Nuclear Fusion Research | Navy Research

https://phys.org/news/2019-02-navy-patent-room-temperature-superconductor.html

other fusion projects

$24bn ITER nuclear fusion project in France 50% complete | Daily Mail Online

ITER - Wikipedia

The Liturgist · May 30, 2020

BobRyan said:
Physics...

cold fusion
A Breakthrough In American Energy Dominance? U.S. Navy Patents Compact Fusion Reactor

What Is Nuclear Fusion? | Nuclear Fusion Research | Navy Research

https://phys.org/news/2019-02-navy-patent-room-temperature-superconductor.html

other fusion projects

$24bn ITER nuclear fusion project in France 50% complete | Daily Mail Online

ITER - Wikipedia

You’re conflating two different things: room temperature superconductors, which are entirely possible and exist even now, and the compact fusion reactor design patented by the Navy, which the article makes clear is not a cold fusion reactor:

“Instead of using superconducting magnets in larger, more traditional fusion plants, Pais’ design uses conical dynamic fusors that spin at extremely high speeds to produce a sustained, concentrated magnetic flux that could in theory sustain the plasma state needed for power production. This powerful magnetic flux then compresses an isotopic hydrogen gas mixture to form a plasma core in the vacuum chamber, which can achieve temperatures high enough to achieve true fusion with breakeven energy.

So not cold-fusion, merely compact fusion.

ITER is also not cold-fusion.

BobRyan · May 31, 2020

The Liturgist said:
You’re conflating two different things: room temperature superconductors, which are entirely possible and exist even now, and the compact fusion reactor design patented by the Navy, which the article makes clear is not a cold fusion reactor:

.

The reactor the Navy is using does not use superconductors (that would be "current technology"). It uses pairs of dynamic fusors.

The Liturgist · May 31, 2020

BobRyan said:
The reactor the Navy is using does not use superconductors (that would be "current technology"). It uses pairs of dynamic fusors.

Indeed it does, and these dynamic fusors work to cause fusion by generating great amounts of heat and pressure. The entire premise of cold fusion was the hypothesis, entirely unverified, that we could have nuclear fusion at room temperature.

Davy · Jun 8, 2020

BobRyan said:
Here is a statement about conditions before the cross.
....

The following Scripture example strikes out your attempt to prove that "sons of God" in the OT just meant flesh men...

Job 1:6
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
KJV

You well knew that existed in the Book of Job, yet you failed to mention it.

BobRyan · Jun 8, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
There are no angels at all mentioned in Genesis 6.

Davy said:
Of course there definitely are! You don't know what you're talking about.

The "sons of God" was a phrase used to point to the angels

Here is a statement about conditions before the cross.

Deut 32:8
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

Matt 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

and after the cross

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Davy said:
Some folks are simply not privy to understanding mysteries that God shows His faithful servants in His Word. .

or is that eisegesis? -- inserting a preference?

You have free will and can believe what you want - but when you say it is "in the text" it cannot be confined to simply "in a preference for the text" or in an insert -- but "in the text"

Davy said:
The following Scripture example strikes out your attempt to prove that "sons of God" in the OT just meant flesh men...

Job 1:6
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
KJV

You well knew that existed in the Book of Job, yet you failed to mention it.

I never claim that every reference is just to men - I always argue for context.

In context Genesis 6 mentions no angels or demons but rather family relationships

In context Christ said angels do not have the "function" to form families even in their own species let alone with other species.

That forms the parameters. And so I point to many examples where the sons of God are humans - as they are in John 1:12 - "to as many as received him to them he gave the right to be called the sons of God".

But there are other cases where as in Job 1 and 2 God is in a meeting and having an open debate with the devil - and the sons of God are there - with the devil coming in among them. This is a case where the context is one of elements outside of this world. In the Gospels Adam is called "the son of God" in the sense that he has no Earthly father - he was created directly by God. Whoever/whatever is in that meeting in Job 1 and 2 - they are not from Earth.

No such non-Earth context exists for Genesis 6.

Davy · Jun 8, 2020

BobRyan said:
....

I never claim that every reference is just to men - I always argue for context.

Except in Genesis 6, which is clearly about the fallen angels of Jude 1 that kept not their first state, but left their own habitation.

The context in Gen.6 about angels taking wives of flesh women and it producing a hybrid race of giants is pretty easy context. Then looking at the meaning of Noah being "perfect in his generations" about bloodline purity also confirms the context of that Gen.6 chapter. And that's not to mention the physical descriptions of the giants later in God's Word.

So context is everything, and not just the Gen.6 chapter is involved. At some point you left that and instead went with a theory of men that the giants were just mean bullies.

By William F. "Buffalo Bill" Cody, in his autobiography The Life of Honorable William F. Cody:

"While we were in the sand hills, scouting the Niobrara country, the Pawnee Indians brought into camp some very large bones, one of which the surgeon of the expedition pronounced to be the thigh-bone of a human being. The Indians claimed that the bones they had found were those of a person belonging to a race of people who a long time ago lived in this country; that there was once a race of men on the earth whose size was about three times that of an ordinary man, and they were so swift and powerful that they could run along-side of a buffalo, and, taking the animal in one arm, could tear off a leg and eat the meat as they walked.

These giants denied the existence of a Great Spirit, and when they heard the thunder or saw the lightning they laughed at it and said that they were greater than either. This so displeased the Great Spirit that he caused a great rain-storm to come, and the water kept rising higher and higher so that it drove those proud and conceited giants from the low grounds to the hills, and thence to the mountains, but at last even the mountain tops were submerged, and then those mammoth men were all drowned. After the flood had subsided, the Great Spirit came to the conclusion that he had made man too large and powerful, and that he would therefore correct the mistake by creating a race of men of smaller size and less strength. This is the reason, say the Indians, that modern men are small and not like the giants of old, and they claim that this story is a matter of Indian history, which has been handed down among them from time immemorial. As we had no wagons with us at the time this large and heavy bone was found, we were obliged to leave it.”

FredVB · Aug 10, 2020

I would be Christian still knowing there is life, and even intelligent life, on other worlds. They would be no more capable of coming to our world than we are capable to come to theirs.

Does the recently confirmed existence of UfO's pose a threat to Christianity?

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