The Demise of Evolution

Ophiolite · May 13, 2020

Strathos said:
Except that doesn't accurately represent what I'm saying at all.

Then you need to make a more determined effort to communicate your meaning. I have been following the discussion and what I wrote represents, to the best of my ability, my understanding of your intentions. I accept that this understanding is wrong, but you are the only person who can correct that.

Strathos · May 13, 2020

Ophiolite said:
Then you need to make a more determined effort to communicate your meaning. I have been following the discussion and what I wrote represents, to the best of my ability, my understanding of your intentions. I accept that this understanding is wrong, but you are the only person who can correct that.

Well the topic I joined in to discuss was the original gospels being contemporaneous with the life of Jesus and the Apostles. I admitted that I don't have watertight scientific/historical evidence for that, but it hardly seems absurd considering what we do know.

Speedwell · May 13, 2020

Strathos said:
Well the topic I joined in to discuss was the original gospels being contemporaneous with the life of Jesus and the Apostles. I admitted that I don't have watertight scientific/historical evidence for that, but it hardly seems absurd considering what we do know.

Well, it's an interesting theory and certainly worth discussing. But how did we get off on this other tangent about God having to show us evidence? It doesn't seem like an important enough question for God to have to weigh in on it.

roman2819 · May 23, 2020

VirOptimus said:
Thats the way reality works.

@VirOptimus , You could not be more wrong to say that reality works accordfng to scientific evidence. In real life , we rely on both faith and evidences (evidences from science or otherwise). Don't pretend that everything is about science. For example, high schoolers planning to go to university does NOT have evidence that they will be alive 5 or 10 years later, but they plan with faith. That is how people go about life. When you board a plane, do you have evidence that your plane will not be the 1 in 5 million that crash?

roman2819 · May 23, 2020

Strathos said:
That's very narrow-minded of you.

@VirOptimus , You could not be more wrong to say that without scientific evidence, then you don't have evidence. Wonder if you are that narrow minded or pretending to be. In real life , we rely on both faith and evidences (evidences from science or otherwise). Don't pretend that everything is about science. For example, high schoolers planning to go to university do NOT have evidence that they will be alive 5 or 10 years later, but they plan with faith. That is how people go about life. When you board a plane, do you have evidence that your plane will not be the 1 in 5 million that crash?

Subduction Zone · May 23, 2020

roman2819 said:
@VirOptimus , You could not be more wrong to say that reality works accordfng to scientific evidence. In real life , we rely on both faith and evidences (evidences from science or otherwise). Don't pretend that everything is about science. For example, high schoolers planning to go to university does NOT have evidence that they will be alive 5 or 10 years later, but they plan with faith. That is how people go about life. When you board a plane, do you have evidence that your plane will not be the 1 in 5 million that crash?

You are guilty of using an equivocation fallacy. Your definition of the word 'faith' is not consistent.

Subduction Zone · May 23, 2020

roman2819 said:
@VirOptimus , You could not be more wrong to say that without scientific evidence, then you don't have evidence. Wonder if you are that narrow minded or pretending to be. In real life , we rely on both faith and evidences (evidences from science or otherwise). Don't pretend that everything is about science. For example, high schoolers planning to go to university do NOT have evidence that they will be alive 5 or 10 years later, but they plan with faith. That is how people go about life. When you board a plane, do you have evidence that your plane will not be the 1 in 5 million that crash?

And once again you use an equivocation fallacy. In context he was correct. He was talking about evidence regarding evolution. I suppose you could claim to have evidence even if you did not have scientific evidence, the problem is that that evidence is not reliable evidence.

VirOptimus · May 23, 2020

roman2819 said:
@VirOptimus , You could not be more wrong to say that without scientific evidence, then you don't have evidence. Wonder if you are that narrow minded or pretending to be. In real life , we rely on both faith and evidences (evidences from science or otherwise). Don't pretend that everything is about science. For example, high schoolers planning to go to university do NOT have evidence that they will be alive 5 or 10 years later, but they plan with faith. That is how people go about life. When you board a plane, do you have evidence that your plane will not be the 1 in 5 million that crash?

Mixing faith and science is stupid.

Strathos · May 23, 2020

roman2819 said:
@VirOptimus , You could not be more wrong to say that without scientific evidence, then you don't have evidence. Wonder if you are that narrow minded or pretending to be. In real life , we rely on both faith and evidences (evidences from science or otherwise). Don't pretend that everything is about science. For example, high schoolers planning to go to university do NOT have evidence that they will be alive 5 or 10 years later, but they plan with faith. That is how people go about life. When you board a plane, do you have evidence that your plane will not be the 1 in 5 million that crash?

Did you mean to quote me there?

Bungle_Bear · May 23, 2020

roman2819 said:
For example, high schoolers planning to go to university does NOT have evidence that they will be alive 5 or 10 years later, but they plan with faith.

They have plenty of evidence to show they are highly likely to be alive 5 or 10 years later. As you said, "That is how people go about life." They rely on evidence, not religious faith, when making those sorts of plans.

When you board a plane, do you have evidence that your plane will not be the 1 in 5 million that crash?

No, but you certainly have evidence whether it is more, or less, likely to be that 1 aircraft.

You're guilty, once again, of equivocation of meanings of "faith" - making a decision based on confidence in evidence is not the same as making a decision based on beliefs for which you have no evidence.

Ophiolite · May 24, 2020

roman2819 said:
For example, high schoolers planning to go to university do NOT have evidence that they will be alive 5 or 10 years later, but they plan with faith.

Speaking for myself (no one else will) when I was plannng to go to university, armed with the hubris of youth, it never occured to me for a moment that I would not be alive 5 or 10 years later. So, in my case, my planning was based not on faith, but on arrogant ignorance.

You should never underestimate the power of arrogant ignorance. Don't think I'm singling you out at all, but if the cap fits. . . . .

roman2819 · May 25, 2020

Subduction Zone said:
Once again I am not a mythicist. And why twelve men? Why take the Bible as being literally true? Your "logic" has completely fallen apart.

Perhaps you don’t think holistically. OR you like to ask for proof for why believe there were 12 apsotles. Since nobody from Jesus time is alive now, you think can ignore credible historical evidence and say what you like.

Perhaps you haven’t seriously think about how the church started. The church didn’t just float down from the sky. People like @Kylie said Jesus didn’t exist and perhaps you are similar. So did the church start when a group of disciples started to tell people about an imaginary figure called Jesus, and thousands start to believe without ever seeing Jesus before? Of course it could not be, they must have seen Jesus did miracles when he was alive. Thousands of people could not have imagined it. The whole town or Galilee region could not be lying to Josephus ( the historian) and told him about someone they never see, could they? If you insist they could, then you are lying to yourself.

When many people believed and Christian communities appeared, the Jews religious authorities (Pharisees and Sanhedrians etc) fear that they were losing their control over the people (which they had influenced for past 300 years BC), and they started to instigate authorities against apostles. A few years later, the Roman authorities started to persecute Christians (whether @Kylie believe it or not). The persecutions got more severe, but the apostles and Christians did not give up.

It would be easy for them to live a lie (with tens of thousands of believers looking to them as leaders) if they were left alone by the authorities. It is easy to live a lie when everything is well, but to stick to the truth during persecution require the deepest truth and conviction. And over the years, persecutions got worse: Finally, except for John, all the 11 and Paul faced capital punishment, they died without giving up. Would they suffer through all these if they had made up fake stories about Jesus resurrection? Jesus came to eat and go fishing with them for many days so they knew they were not hallucinating.

The Scriptures claimed that about 120 other disciples saw Jesus after he was resurrected. The rest of the Jews who believed after Pentecost later didn’t see Him . So what caused them to believe and die for their faith? They believed because they saw Jesus cured the sick, expelled demons and did miracles , as Josephus recorded that many followed Jesus because He did many miracles. And again I ask: Did the mass told Josephus one big lie about a magician Jesus? Was everyone in the town and region lying to him? Is that possible? When the apostles proclaimed gospel and set up communities which later became churches, they did many miracles too and spoke in different languages to tell them about salvation, which caused people to believe. Or you going to claim without reason that these people just wanted to believe in an imaginary Jesus desperately – and get beaten or killed doing so? For their belief, they were thrown to lions, burnt by fire, drowned in water, crushed by wooden logs while tied to trees etc. Why would they want to live or die through this if they did not have bullet-proof convictions about the Jesus and the disciples?

roman2819 · May 25, 2020

Kylie said:
What do we actually know?

I would abswer you with same post #1812 but here, the bold words regarding Josephus is highlighted for you

Josephus mentioned a guy named James. This James fellow is said to be the brother of Jesus.

At best, this shows that there was a guy named James, and people said he was the brother of Jesus. Of course, I'm sure you agree that people can say things about other people without those things being true. And James is a common enough name. I know two of them at work.

Perhaps you don’t think holistically. OR you like to ask for proof for why believe there were 12 disciples. Since nobody from Jesus time is alive now, you think can ignore credible historical evidence and say what you like.

Perhaps you haven’t seriously think about how the church started. The church didn’t just float down from the sky. You said Jesus didn’t exist. So did the church start when a group of disciples started to tell people about an imaginary figure called Jesus, and thousands start to believe without ever seeing Jesus before? Of course it could not be, they must have seen Jesus did miracles when he was alive. Thousands of people could not have imagined it. The whole town or Galilee region could not be lying to Josephus ( the historian) and told him about someone they never see, could they? If you insist they could, then you are lying to yourself.

When many people believed and Christian communities appeared, the Jews religious authorities (Pharisees and Sanhedrians etc) fear that they were losing their control over the people (which they had influenced for past 300 years BC), and they started to instigate authorities against apostles. A few years later, the Roman authorities started to persecute Christians (whether @Kylie believe it or not). The persecutions got more severe, but the apostles and Christians did not give up.

It would be easy for them to live a lie (with tens of thousands of believers looking to them as leaders) if they were left alone by the authorities. It is easy to live a lie when everything is well, but to stick to the truth during persecution require the deepest truth and conviction. And over the years, persecutions got worse: Finally, except for John, all the 11 and Paul faced capital punishment, they died without giving up. Would they suffer through all these if they had made up fake stories about Jesus resurrection? Jesus came to eat and go fishing with them for many days so they knew they were not hallucinating.

The Scriptures claimed that about 120 other disciples saw Jesus after he was resurrected. The rest of the Jews who believed after Pentecost later didn’t see Him . So what caused them to believe and die for their faith? They believed because they saw Jesus cured the sick, expelled demons and did miracles , as Josephus recorded that many followed Jesus because He did many miracles. And again I ask: Did the mass told Josephus one big lie about an imaginary magician Jesus? Was everyone in the town and region lying to him? Is that possible? When the apostles proclaimed gospel and set up communities which later became churches, they did many miracles too and spoke in different languages to tell them about salvation, which caused people to believe. Or you going to claim without reason that these people just wanted to believe in an imaginary Jesus desperately – and get beaten or killed doing so? For their belief, they were thrown to lions, burnt by fire, drowned in water, crushed by wooden logs while tied to trees etc. Why would they want to live or die through this if they did not have bullet-proof convictions about the Jesus and the disciples?

It is not easy to discredit Christianity and Jesu existence with clever arguments and faking ignorance. Truth stabds the test of time

VirOptimus · May 25, 2020

roman2819 said:
Perhaps you don’t think holistically. OR you like to ask for proof for why believe there were 12 disciples. Since nobody from Jesus time is alive now, you think can ignore credible historical evidence and say what you like.

Perhaps you haven’t seriously think about how the church started. The church didn’t just float down from the sky. You said Jesus didn’t exist. So did the church start when a group of disciples started to tell people about an imaginary figure called Jesus, and thousands start to believe without ever seeing Jesus before? Of course it could not be, they must have seen Jesus did miracles when he was alive. Thousands of people could not have imagined it. The whole town or Galilee region could not be lying to Josephus ( the historian) and told him about someone they never see, could they? If you insist they could, then you are lying to yourself.

When many people believed and Christian communities appeared, the Jews religious authorities (Pharisees and Sanhedrians etc) fear that they were losing their control over the people (which they had influenced for past 300 years BC), and they started to instigate authorities against apostles. A few years later, the Roman authorities started to persecute Christians (whether @Kylie believe it or not). The persecutions got more severe, but the apostles and Christians did not give up.

It would be easy for them to live a lie (with tens of thousands of believers looking to them as leaders) if they were left alone by the authorities. It is easy to live a lie when everything is well, but to stick to the truth during persecution require the deepest truth and conviction. And over the years, persecutions got worse: Finally, except for John, all the 11 and Paul faced capital punishment, they died without giving up. Would they suffer through all these if they had made up fake stories about Jesus resurrection? Jesus came to eat and go fishing with them for many days so they knew they were not hallucinating.

The Scriptures claimed that about 120 other disciples saw Jesus after he was resurrected. The rest of the Jews who believed after Pentecost later didn’t see Him . So what caused them to believe and die for their faith? They believed because they saw Jesus cured the sick, expelled demons and did miracles , as Josephus recorded that many followed Jesus because He did many miracles. And again I ask: Did the mass told Josephus one big lie about an imaginary magician Jesus? Was everyone in the town and region lying to him? Is that possible? When the apostles proclaimed gospel and set up communities which later became churches, they did many miracles too and spoke in different languages to tell them about salvation, which caused people to believe. Or you going to claim without reason that these people just wanted to believe in an imaginary Jesus desperately – and get beaten or killed doing so? For their belief, they were thrown to lions, burnt by fire, drowned in water, crushed by wooden logs while tied to trees etc. Why would they want to live or die through this if they did not have bullet-proof convictions about the Jesus and the disciples?

It is not easy to discredit Christianity and Jesu existence with clever arguments and faking ignorance. Truth stabds the test of time

By that logic all religions with martyrs are true.

And thats pretty much all of them.

Speedwell · May 25, 2020

roman2819 said:
Perhaps you don’t think holistically. OR you like to ask for proof for why believe there were 12 disciples. Since nobody from Jesus time is alive now, you think can ignore credible historical evidence and say what you like.

Perhaps you haven’t seriously think about how the church started. The church didn’t just float down from the sky. You said Jesus didn’t exist. So did the church start when a group of disciples started to tell people about an imaginary figure called Jesus, and thousands start to believe without ever seeing Jesus before? Of course it could not be, they must have seen Jesus did miracles when he was alive. Thousands of people could not have imagined it. The whole town or Galilee region could not be lying to Josephus ( the historian) and told him about someone they never see, could they? If you insist they could, then you are lying to yourself.

When many people believed and Christian communities appeared, the Jews religious authorities (Pharisees and Sanhedrians etc) fear that they were losing their control over the people (which they had influenced for past 300 years BC), and they started to instigate authorities against apostles. A few years later, the Roman authorities started to persecute Christians (whether @Kylie believe it or not). The persecutions got more severe, but the apostles and Christians did not give up.

It would be easy for them to live a lie (with tens of thousands of believers looking to them as leaders) if they were left alone by the authorities. It is easy to live a lie when everything is well, but to stick to the truth during persecution require the deepest truth and conviction. And over the years, persecutions got worse: Finally, except for John, all the 11 and Paul faced capital punishment, they died without giving up. Would they suffer through all these if they had made up fake stories about Jesus resurrection? Jesus came to eat and go fishing with them for many days so they knew they were not hallucinating.

The Scriptures claimed that about 120 other disciples saw Jesus after he was resurrected. The rest of the Jews who believed after Pentecost later didn’t see Him . So what caused them to believe and die for their faith? They believed because they saw Jesus cured the sick, expelled demons and did miracles , as Josephus recorded that many followed Jesus because He did many miracles. And again I ask: Did the mass told Josephus one big lie about an imaginary magician Jesus? Was everyone in the town and region lying to him? Is that possible? When the apostles proclaimed gospel and set up communities which later became churches, they did many miracles too and spoke in different languages to tell them about salvation, which caused people to believe. Or you going to claim without reason that these people just wanted to believe in an imaginary Jesus desperately – and get beaten or killed doing so? For their belief, they were thrown to lions, burnt by fire, drowned in water, crushed by wooden logs while tied to trees etc. Why would they want to live or die through this if they did not have bullet-proof convictions about the Jesus and the disciples?

It is not easy to discredit Christianity and Jesu existence with clever arguments and faking ignorance. Truth stabds the test of time

You're missing the point of the discussion. We're not really talking about the truth of the Christian faith as such, but about the reliability of the documentary evidence.

Subduction Zone · May 25, 2020

roman2819 said:
Perhaps you don’t think holistically. OR you like to ask for proof for why believe there were 12 apsotles. Since nobody from Jesus time is alive now, you think can ignore credible historical evidence and say what you like.

Perhaps you haven’t seriously think about how the church started. The church didn’t just float down from the sky. People like @Kylie said Jesus didn’t exist and perhaps you are similar. So did the church start when a group of disciples started to tell people about an imaginary figure called Jesus, and thousands start to believe without ever seeing Jesus before? Of course it could not be, they must have seen Jesus did miracles when he was alive. Thousands of people could not have imagined it. The whole town or Galilee region could not be lying to Josephus ( the historian) and told him about someone they never see, could they? If you insist they could, then you are lying to yourself.

When many people believed and Christian communities appeared, the Jews religious authorities (Pharisees and Sanhedrians etc) fear that they were losing their control over the people (which they had influenced for past 300 years BC), and they started to instigate authorities against apostles. A few years later, the Roman authorities started to persecute Christians (whether @Kylie believe it or not). The persecutions got more severe, but the apostles and Christians did not give up.

It would be easy for them to live a lie (with tens of thousands of believers looking to them as leaders) if they were left alone by the authorities. It is easy to live a lie when everything is well, but to stick to the truth during persecution require the deepest truth and conviction. And over the years, persecutions got worse: Finally, except for John, all the 11 and Paul faced capital punishment, they died without giving up. Would they suffer through all these if they had made up fake stories about Jesus resurrection? Jesus came to eat and go fishing with them for many days so they knew they were not hallucinating.

The Scriptures claimed that about 120 other disciples saw Jesus after he was resurrected. The rest of the Jews who believed after Pentecost later didn’t see Him . So what caused them to believe and die for their faith? They believed because they saw Jesus cured the sick, expelled demons and did miracles , as Josephus recorded that many followed Jesus because He did many miracles. And again I ask: Did the mass told Josephus one big lie about a magician Jesus? Was everyone in the town and region lying to him? Is that possible? When the apostles proclaimed gospel and set up communities which later became churches, they did many miracles too and spoke in different languages to tell them about salvation, which caused people to believe. Or you going to claim without reason that these people just wanted to believe in an imaginary Jesus desperately – and get beaten or killed doing so? For their belief, they were thrown to lions, burnt by fire, drowned in water, crushed by wooden logs while tied to trees etc. Why would they want to live or die through this if they did not have bullet-proof convictions about the Jesus and the disciples?

Did you not notice that I said that I was not a mythicist? That does not mean that I make the error of reading the Bible literally. People often believe things that are not true. True believers keep believing even when shown to be wrong. Just look at all of the people that still follow Trump. There probably was a man name Jesus. He probably had followers. But that is all that there is even weak evidence for. The only claims of people seeing him after he was crucified were other true believers. There are no reliable sources for that claim at all. For example the claim of "500 witnesses" was made by Paul who never saw Jesus himself. I could make a claim that 500 people saw my uncle Jimmy rise from the dead. That would not be very believable.

Bungle_Bear · May 25, 2020

roman2819 said:
Perhaps you don’t think holistically. OR you like to ask for proof for why believe there were 12 disciples. Since nobody from Jesus time is alive now, you think can ignore credible historical evidence and say what you like.

Perhaps you haven’t seriously think about how the church started. The church didn’t just float down from the sky. You said Jesus didn’t exist. So did the church start when a group of disciples started to tell people about an imaginary figure called Jesus, and thousands start to believe without ever seeing Jesus before? Of course it could not be, they must have seen Jesus did miracles when he was alive. Thousands of people could not have imagined it. The whole town or Galilee region could not be lying to Josephus ( the historian) and told him about someone they never see, could they? If you insist they could, then you are lying to yourself.

When many people believed and Christian communities appeared, the Jews religious authorities (Pharisees and Sanhedrians etc) fear that they were losing their control over the people (which they had influenced for past 300 years BC), and they started to instigate authorities against apostles. A few years later, the Roman authorities started to persecute Christians (whether @Kylie believe it or not). The persecutions got more severe, but the apostles and Christians did not give up.

It would be easy for them to live a lie (with tens of thousands of believers looking to them as leaders) if they were left alone by the authorities. It is easy to live a lie when everything is well, but to stick to the truth during persecution require the deepest truth and conviction. And over the years, persecutions got worse: Finally, except for John, all the 11 and Paul faced capital punishment, they died without giving up. Would they suffer through all these if they had made up fake stories about Jesus resurrection? Jesus came to eat and go fishing with them for many days so they knew they were not hallucinating.

The Scriptures claimed that about 120 other disciples saw Jesus after he was resurrected. The rest of the Jews who believed after Pentecost later didn’t see Him . So what caused them to believe and die for their faith? They believed because they saw Jesus cured the sick, expelled demons and did miracles , as Josephus recorded that many followed Jesus because He did many miracles. And again I ask: Did the mass told Josephus one big lie about an imaginary magician Jesus? Was everyone in the town and region lying to him? Is that possible? When the apostles proclaimed gospel and set up communities which later became churches, they did many miracles too and spoke in different languages to tell them about salvation, which caused people to believe. Or you going to claim without reason that these people just wanted to believe in an imaginary Jesus desperately – and get beaten or killed doing so? For their belief, they were thrown to lions, burnt by fire, drowned in water, crushed by wooden logs while tied to trees etc. Why would they want to live or die through this if they did not have bullet-proof convictions about the Jesus and the disciples?

It is not easy to discredit Christianity and Jesu existence with clever arguments and faking ignorance. Truth stabds the test of time

You need to spend some time (5 minutes should be enough) researching the origins of religions. Mormonism and scientology are great modern examples. Sikhism was founded during a period of religious persecution and two of the Gurus of sikhism (Guru Arjan and Guru Tegh Bahadur) are known to have been killed for their refusal to renounce their beliefs and convert to Islam. The claims you make for Christianity are not special or unique, they are simply examples of humans doing what humans do.

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 26, 2020

So... when exactly is the 'demise of evolution' happening then?
Anyone? Anyone know at all?

Kylie · May 26, 2020

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
So... when exactly is the 'demise of evolution' happening then?
Anyone? Anyone know at all?

Next Thursday at 5pm.

Not sure which time zone though, so you'd better be prepared.

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 26, 2020

Kylie said:
Next Thursday at 5pm.

Not sure which time zone though, so you'd better be prepared.

Knowing the way these things go, probably CST.

The Demise of Evolution

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

No one important

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

A nihilist who cares.

No one important

Whoot!

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

A nihilist who cares.

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Whoot!

Well-Known Member

Defeater of Illogic

Well-Known Member

Similar threads