I am not ashamed of the gospel...

DerSchweik · May 24, 2020

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16

I've been a Christian nearly 40 years now. It occurred to me how focused I tend to be, perhaps we tend to be, on the subject of baptism - as if baptism is what defines us as Christians. I've come to realize how apologetic I've been, not wanting to offend others, not wanting to disturb others or somehow cause them to stumble, not wanting to be judgmental, etc. etc. etc. etc.... by preaching and teaching baptism.

But then it occurred to me that this seemingly undue emphasis on baptism has been more defensive than anything else - a function of contemporary condemnation and castigation of Christian baptism - denial that's been occurring since the late first century, heretics who denied Christian baptism, heretics denounced by the likes of Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus, et. al. who stood up for Christian baptism.

20 centuries later however, the heresies attacking the early church are still with us today - in fact in greater force, subtlety, and efficacy that only the passage of 2,000 years can explain.

I think I (we?) focus on baptism so much because the devil and his minions have been focusing so hard on denying it for so long - 2,000+ years long.
Why?
My only answer to that is, rightly or wrongly, I Cor 1:13 - "Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" Paul used our identity in Christ to quell divisions in the Corinthian church - our identity in Christ on the basis of our baptism.

Get people to deny, object to, disavow, etc. the role of baptism in salvation and you defraud them of obtaining their true identity in Christ.

Because of this, I'm revisiting how I share my faith with others.

My brothers and sisters in Christ, my wife and I, me and my friends in Christ, rarely talk about baptism - we talk about Jesus, His Spirit, God, God's Word, what they're doing in our lives and the lives of those with whom we're sharing our faith, praying for, serving, etc. Baptism is something we all did, once, many years ago in most cases.

But in the face of such a powerful worldly denial of Christian baptism - we're being driven to talking more about it now because in the attack on our identity in Christ, we're being renewed in our understanding that...

We receive forgiveness of sins after… repenting and being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit… after being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We’re “added” [to the church] after being baptized (Acts 2:41)
We’re “judged faithful” [obedient] after being baptized (Acts 16:15)
We’re “in Christ Jesus” having been baptized (Rom 6:3)
We’re baptized into His Death, it is in baptism where we’ve been crucified with Him (Rom 6:3, Gal 2:20)
We’ve been buried with Him in baptism (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12)
We’ll be raised from the dead, as Christ was, because of our baptism (Rom 6:4)
We’ve “clothed ourselves with Christ” in baptism (Gal 3:27)

Having heard, penitent, sins forgiven, Holy Spirit received, to the church added, judged faithful, in Christ, crucified with Him, died, buried, to be raised as He was, clothed with Him – in baptism.

In a very real sense, baptism IS the gospel - and I refuse to be ashamed of that any more.

Guojing · May 24, 2020

DerSchweik said:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16

I've been a Christian nearly 40 years now. It occurred to me how focused I tend to be, perhaps we tend to be, on the subject of baptism - as if baptism is what defines us as Christians. I've come to realize how apologetic I've been, not wanting to offend others, not wanting to disturb others or somehow cause them to stumble, not wanting to be judgmental, etc. etc. etc. etc.... by preaching and teaching baptism.

But then it occurred to me that this seemingly undue emphasis on baptism has been more defensive than anything else - a function of contemporary condemnation and castigation of Christian baptism - denial that's been occurring since the late first century, heretics who denied Christian baptism, heretics denounced by the likes of Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus, et. al. who stood up for Christian baptism.

20 centuries later however, the heresies attacking the early church are still with us today - in fact in greater force, subtlety, and efficacy that only the passage of 2,000 years can explain.

I think I (we?) focus on baptism so much because the devil and his minions have been focusing so hard on denying it for so long - 2,000+ years long.
Why?
My only answer to that is, rightly or wrongly, I Cor 1:13 - "Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" Paul used our identity in Christ to quell divisions in the Corinthian church - our identity in Christ on the basis of our baptism.

Get people to deny, object to, disavow, etc. the role of baptism in salvation and you defraud them of obtaining their true identity in Christ.

Because of this, I'm revisiting how I share my faith with others.

My brothers and sisters in Christ, my wife and I, me and my friends in Christ, rarely talk about baptism - we talk about Jesus, His Spirit, God, God's Word, what they're doing in our lives and the lives of those with whom we're sharing our faith, praying for, serving, etc. Baptism is something we all did, once, many years ago in most cases.

But in the face of such a powerful worldly denial of Christian baptism - we're being driven to talking more about it now because in the attack on our identity in Christ, we're being renewed in our understanding that...

We receive forgiveness of sins after… repenting and being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit… after being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We’re “added” [to the church] after being baptized (Acts 2:41)
We’re “judged faithful” [obedient] after being baptized (Acts 16:15)
We’re “in Christ Jesus” having been baptized (Rom 6:3)
We’re baptized into His Death, it is in baptism where we’ve been crucified with Him (Rom 6:3, Gal 2:20)
We’ve been buried with Him in baptism (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12)
We’ll be raised from the dead, as Christ was, because of our baptism (Rom 6:4)
We’ve “clothed ourselves with Christ” in baptism (Gal 3:27)

Having heard, penitent, sins forgiven, Holy Spirit received, to the church added, judged faithful, in Christ, crucified with Him, died, buried, to be raised as He was, clothed with Him – in baptism.

In a very real sense, baptism IS the gospel - and I refuse to be ashamed of that any more.

So you believe water baptism saves? It is a sufficient or necessary condition to you?

Aussie Pete · May 24, 2020

DerSchweik said:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16

I've been a Christian nearly 40 years now. It occurred to me how focused I tend to be, perhaps we tend to be, on the subject of baptism - as if baptism is what defines us as Christians. I've come to realize how apologetic I've been, not wanting to offend others, not wanting to disturb others or somehow cause them to stumble, not wanting to be judgmental, etc. etc. etc. etc.... by preaching and teaching baptism.

But then it occurred to me that this seemingly undue emphasis on baptism has been more defensive than anything else - a function of contemporary condemnation and castigation of Christian baptism - denial that's been occurring since the late first century, heretics who denied Christian baptism, heretics denounced by the likes of Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus, et. al. who stood up for Christian baptism.

20 centuries later however, the heresies attacking the early church are still with us today - in fact in greater force, subtlety, and efficacy that only the passage of 2,000 years can explain.

I think I (we?) focus on baptism so much because the devil and his minions have been focusing so hard on denying it for so long - 2,000+ years long.
Why?
My only answer to that is, rightly or wrongly, I Cor 1:13 - "Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" Paul used our identity in Christ to quell divisions in the Corinthian church - our identity in Christ on the basis of our baptism.

Get people to deny, object to, disavow, etc. the role of baptism in salvation and you defraud them of obtaining their true identity in Christ.

Because of this, I'm revisiting how I share my faith with others.

My brothers and sisters in Christ, my wife and I, me and my friends in Christ, rarely talk about baptism - we talk about Jesus, His Spirit, God, God's Word, what they're doing in our lives and the lives of those with whom we're sharing our faith, praying for, serving, etc. Baptism is something we all did, once, many years ago in most cases.

But in the face of such a powerful worldly denial of Christian baptism - we're being driven to talking more about it now because in the attack on our identity in Christ, we're being renewed in our understanding that...

We receive forgiveness of sins after… repenting and being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit… after being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We’re “added” [to the church] after being baptized (Acts 2:41)
We’re “judged faithful” [obedient] after being baptized (Acts 16:15)
We’re “in Christ Jesus” having been baptized (Rom 6:3)
We’re baptized into His Death, it is in baptism where we’ve been crucified with Him (Rom 6:3, Gal 2:20)
We’ve been buried with Him in baptism (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12)
We’ll be raised from the dead, as Christ was, because of our baptism (Rom 6:4)
We’ve “clothed ourselves with Christ” in baptism (Gal 3:27)

Having heard, penitent, sins forgiven, Holy Spirit received, to the church added, judged faithful, in Christ, crucified with Him, died, buried, to be raised as He was, clothed with Him – in baptism.

In a very real sense, baptism IS the gospel - and I refuse to be ashamed of that any more.

It really depends on what you mean by baptism. Full immersion in water? The word baptise literally means to immerse. Or baptism into Christ? God does that when we accept Christ. Baptism in the Holy Spirit? Lord Jesus does that, not men. Yet Paul laid hands on some believers and they received the Holy Spirit. No water there either. Paul was baptised in the Holy Spirit before he was baptised in water. (Acts 9:15-18).

Baptism is not the gospel. The thief on the cross was not baptised. He was saved.

DerSchweik · May 24, 2020

Guojing said:
So you believe water baptism saves? It is a sufficient or necessary condition to you?

I love replies that begin with "So you believe..." - replies to something they're quoting which they obviously have not actually read - or understood.

I believe "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to" Paul.

I believe Christ "died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit..."

I believe "that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

I believe that once we're aware our sins put Jesus to death on the cross, that we're expected to "repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;"

I believe this is the point at which we "will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

I believe Peter's exhortation that we “be saved from this perverse generation!” is timely, that, those who receive this word and are baptized are added to the church.

I believe "..having been buried with Him in baptism, in which [we] were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When [we] were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of [our] flesh, He made [us] alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

I believe that all of us "who were baptized into Christ have clothed [our]selves with Christ."

I believe when Philip preached Jesus to [the Ethiopian eunuch] that he included Christian [water] baptism in his preaching. "As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

I believe when Paul was converted he was told "Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name."

I believe of Lydia, that the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.”

I believe when Paul told the Philippian jailer to “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household."

I believe Jesus commanded us to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

I believe He was sincere when He said "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

I believe His commandment was communicated to us twice - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you..."

I should note that Jesus cannot be commanding of His disciples/followers to perform baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Think about it)

I believe the accusation that those who believe the above somehow believe "water baptism saves" - is of the devil himself - an accusation evinced by early Christian leaders' responses, that Christians have been fielding this charge ever since the church's inception.

That's what I believe - what do you believe?

DerSchweik · May 24, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
The thief on the cross was not baptised. He was saved.

Yes, I believe he was saved.
No, he was not baptized.

But,
If "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"(I Cor 15:1ff),
If Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit (I Pet 3:18f),
If God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Rom 5:8ff)

...Then pointing to the thief on the cross as the way of salvation...

REPUDIATES JESUS' DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION

St_Worm2 · May 24, 2020

DerSchweik said:
...pointing to the thief on the cross as the way of salvation...

REPUDIATES JESUS' DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION

Hello DerSchweik, how so?

Thanks for your help!

--David

DerSchweik · May 24, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Hello DerSchweik, how so?

Thanks for your help!

--David

Luke 23:42f - And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Because the thief's request (his example of "saving faith" so many point to when they lift up the thief as an example of how to be saved), and Jesus' promise that he would be with Him in Paradise that day, was made BEFORE JESUS HAD DIED.

If the thief on the cross, if his faith is an example of how to be saved today - and his example is put forth ad-nauseum for that very purpose, then Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection (which had not yet happened) are unnecessary.

Guojing · May 24, 2020

DerSchweik said:
I love replies that begin with "So you believe..." - replies to something they're quoting which they obviously have not actually read - or understood.

I believe "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to" Paul.

I believe Christ "died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit..."

I believe "that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

I believe that once we're aware our sins put Jesus to death on the cross, that we're expected to "repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;"

I believe this is the point at which we "will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

I believe Peter's exhortation that we “be saved from this perverse generation!” is timely, that, those who receive this word and are baptized are added to the church.

I believe "..having been buried with Him in baptism, in which [we] were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When [we] were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of [our] flesh, He made [us] alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

I believe that all of us "who were baptized into Christ have clothed [our]selves with Christ."

I believe when Philip preached Jesus to [the Ethiopian eunuch] that he included Christian [water] baptism in his preaching. "As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

I believe when Paul was converted he was told "Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name."

I believe of Lydia, that the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.”

I believe when Paul told the Philippian jailer to “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household."

I believe Jesus commanded us to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

I believe He was sincere when He said "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

I believe His commandment was communicated to us twice - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you..."

I should note that Jesus cannot be commanding of His disciples/followers to perform baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Think about it)

I believe the accusation that those who believe the above somehow believe "water baptism saves" - is of the devil himself - an accusation evinced by early Christian leaders' responses, that Christians have been fielding this charge ever since the church's inception.

That's what I believe - what do you believe?

So if I can sum up your view, you are saying water baptism is necessary, but not sufficient for salvation.

Am I correct?

St_Worm2 · May 24, 2020

DerSchweik said:
Luke 23:42f - And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Because the thief's request (his example of "saving faith" so many point to when they lift up the thief as an example of how to be saved), and Jesus' promise that he would be with Him in Paradise that day, was made BEFORE JESUS HAD DIED.

If the thief on the cross, if his faith is an example of how to be saved today - and his example is put forth ad-nauseum for that very purpose, then Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection (which had not yet happened) are unnecessary.

Thanks!

Question, like the thief on the cross, how were others, who died in faith prior to the Lord's death and resurrection, saved? (actually, the thief on the cross probably died after the Lord did, as the Lord's death on the Cross happened pretty quickly compared to most, if memory serves).

Thanks again

edit: Yes, the Lord died first.

John 19
31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him;
33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
.

DerSchweik · May 24, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Thanks!

Question, like the thief on the cross, how were others, who died in faith prior to the Lord's death and resurrection, saved? (actually, the thief on the cross probably died after the Lord did, as the Lord's death on the Cross happened pretty quickly compared to most, if memory serves).

Thanks again

Well, since the Sabbath was imminent, they needed to take the 3 of them down from the cross so they had to break the legs of the two robbers but they didn't have to break Jesus' legs as He was already dead - so yes, it's pretty certain the thief did die after Jesus died.

Can I ask you a question - why do you think that matters? To you, to any of us today?

DerSchweik · May 24, 2020

Guojing said:
So if I can sum up your view, you are saying water baptism is necessary, but not sufficient for salvation.

Am I correct?

I cited a number of Scriptures on the topic. How do you read them? Or, which ones do you believe say "water baptism is necessary, but not sufficient for salvation?"

Guojing · May 24, 2020

DerSchweik said:
I cited a number of Scriptures on the topic. How do you read them? Or, which ones do you believe say "water baptism is necessary, but not sufficient for salvation?"

I trust you understand the difference between necessary and sufficient.

The scripture you post, some of them indicated faith alone saves, as in 1 Cor 15:1-4, others indicated faith and baptism are both required Mark 16:16.

This leaves an ordinary reader to conclude that you believe faith AND water baptism are both necessary for salvation, with neither of them alone being sufficient.

DerSchweik · May 25, 2020

Guojing said:
I trust you understand the difference between necessary and sufficient.

The scripture you post, some of them indicated faith alone saves, as in 1 Cor 15:1-4, others indicated faith and baptism are both required Mark 16:16.

This leaves an ordinary reader to conclude that you believe faith AND water baptism are both necessary for salvation, with neither of them alone being sufficient.

You didn't answer my question.

Given your response, let me ask several more:
Is it possible or not possible for faith to include [submitting to] baptism?
Is it possible or not possible for grace to include [submitting to] baptism?

"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief." (Heb 3:18f)
Given the above, is it reasonable to conclude faith involves obedience?
Or, is it possible to have faith and not be obedient?

When Paul says the grace and apostleship he received as to "bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake," to what was Paul referring?
When Peter says to his readers, "Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls..." - to what was Peter referring?

If a verse in one location - e.g. I Cor 15:1-4 mentions faith but not baptism, while a verse in another location - as you rightly noted - mentions both faith and baptism, does one passage take precedence over the other? Is one passage [necessarily] wrong and the other right? If so, which one, and by what rule of interpretation?

Guojing · May 25, 2020

DerSchweik said:
You didn't answer my question.

Given your response, let me ask several more:
Is it possible or not possible for faith to include [submitting to] baptism?
Is it possible or not possible for grace to include [submitting to] baptism?

"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief." (Heb 3:18f)
Given the above, is it reasonable to conclude faith involves obedience?
Or, is it possible to have faith and not be obedient?

When Paul says the grace and apostleship he received as to "bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake," to what was Paul referring?
When Peter says to his readers, "Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls..." - to what was Peter referring?

If a verse in one location - e.g. I Cor 15:1-4 mentions faith but not baptism, while a verse in another location - as you rightly noted - mentions both faith and baptism, does one passage take precedence over the other? Is one passage [necessarily] wrong and the other right? If so, which one, and by what rule of interpretation?

How I understand Scripture is by rightly dividing the word of truth.

Under the gospel of the kingdom preached to Israel only, water baptism is a requirement for salvation. Israel as a nation was supposed to accept Jesus as their Messiah and be ushered into their promised kingdom where Jesus will rule over them from David's throne in Jerusalem.

Then Israel will become a kingdom of priest, in order to be a priest, every Jew MUST be baptized (Exodus 19:4-6)

Once that happen, then every Jew will be responsible to spread the gospel to every Gentile nation under the Earth. There are a number of OT passages that talk about this prophetic timetable, the most beautiful to me is found in Zechariah 8

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.

22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
====

But as we can all see by Acts 7, Israel has rejected their King, they even stoned Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit. When that happened, Jesus saved Saul and revealed to him a mystery, that because of Israel's rejection, all the Gentiles can now be saved without them (Romans 9 to Romans 11).

How does one get saved now? That is thru 1 Cor 15:1-4. Water baptism is no longer required for anything under this mystery grace dispensation.

That is what I meant by "rightly dividing the word of truth". All of us in the Body of Christ should not be going back to the gospel of the kingdom, found in the 4 gospels and early Acts, for our salvation doctrine, as what you are doing now.

St_Worm2 · May 25, 2020

DerSchweik said:
...they didn't have to break Jesus' legs as He was already dead - so yes, it's pretty certain the thief did die after Jesus died.

Can I ask you a question - why do you think that matters? To you, to any of us today?

The fact that the Lord's bones were not broken was the fulfillment of one of the Messianic prophesies. This is part of the proof that tells us that Jesus is who He said He was, that God is sovereign, and that His word can be counted on as the truth.

So, since the thief died ~after~ Jesus did, after the veil of the temple was torn asunder, His death would have atoned for the thief's sins, yes?

But how were the sins of the faithful who died before Jesus died (in OT times, for instance) atoned for? (since we know that 1. without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness .. Heb 9:22, and 2. it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins .. Hebrews 10:4?

Thanks!

--David

DerSchweik · May 25, 2020

Guojing said:
How I understand Scripture is by rightly dividing the word of truth.

[snip]

Well, I'm sorry you can't - or won't understand it.

Paul told the Corinthians - "we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Jesus didn't just die for our sins - He voluntarily submitted Himself, His body to crucifixion to those who had no clue who and what Jesus really was. Had they but known, they would not have killed Him.

This was God's wisdom. This was God's grace - God's awesome, amazing grace.

Are we who are saved by His grace then to go on sinning that His grace may abound even more?
"May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

Before Romans 9 to 11, there is Romans 6, 7, and 8.

Guojing · May 25, 2020

DerSchweik said:
Well, I'm sorry you can't - or won't understand it.

Paul told the Corinthians - "we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Jesus didn't just die for our sins - He voluntarily submitted Himself, His body to crucifixion to those who had no clue who and what Jesus really was. Had they but known, they would not have killed Him.

This was God's wisdom. This was God's grace - God's awesome, amazing grace.

Are we who are saved by His grace then to go on sinning that His grace may abound even more?
"May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

Before Romans 9 to 11, there is Romans 6, 7, and 8.

True, but remember, Jesus was only sent to the circumcised during his earthly ministry. Paul said that in Romans 15:8, and Jesus himself confirmed it in Matthew 15:24.

He did not allow the gospel of the kingdom to be preached to the Gentiles in Matthew 10:5

Aussie Pete · May 25, 2020

DerSchweik said:
Yes, I believe he was saved.
No, he was not baptized.

But,
If "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"(I Cor 15:1ff),
If Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit (I Pet 3:18f),
If God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Rom 5:8ff)

...Then pointing to the thief on the cross as the way of salvation...

REPUDIATES JESUS' DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION

Lord Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Everything in the OT looks forward to the cross. The old testament saints were just as saved as any believer after the resurrection. They were not baptised.

Brian Mcnamee · May 25, 2020

DerSchweik said:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16

I've been a Christian nearly 40 years now. It occurred to me how focused I tend to be, perhaps we tend to be, on the subject of baptism - as if baptism is what defines us as Christians. I've come to realize how apologetic I've been, not wanting to offend others, not wanting to disturb others or somehow cause them to stumble, not wanting to be judgmental, etc. etc. etc. etc.... by preaching and teaching baptism.

But then it occurred to me that this seemingly undue emphasis on baptism has been more defensive than anything else - a function of contemporary condemnation and castigation of Christian baptism - denial that's been occurring since the late first century, heretics who denied Christian baptism, heretics denounced by the likes of Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus, et. al. who stood up for Christian baptism.

20 centuries later however, the heresies attacking the early church are still with us today - in fact in greater force, subtlety, and efficacy that only the passage of 2,000 years can explain.

I think I (we?) focus on baptism so much because the devil and his minions have been focusing so hard on denying it for so long - 2,000+ years long.
Why?
My only answer to that is, rightly or wrongly, I Cor 1:13 - "Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" Paul used our identity in Christ to quell divisions in the Corinthian church - our identity in Christ on the basis of our baptism.

Get people to deny, object to, disavow, etc. the role of baptism in salvation and you defraud them of obtaining their true identity in Christ.

Because of this, I'm revisiting how I share my faith with others.

My brothers and sisters in Christ, my wife and I, me and my friends in Christ, rarely talk about baptism - we talk about Jesus, His Spirit, God, God's Word, what they're doing in our lives and the lives of those with whom we're sharing our faith, praying for, serving, etc. Baptism is something we all did, once, many years ago in most cases.

But in the face of such a powerful worldly denial of Christian baptism - we're being driven to talking more about it now because in the attack on our identity in Christ, we're being renewed in our understanding that...

We receive forgiveness of sins after… repenting and being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit… after being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We’re “added” [to the church] after being baptized (Acts 2:41)
We’re “judged faithful” [obedient] after being baptized (Acts 16:15)
We’re “in Christ Jesus” having been baptized (Rom 6:3)
We’re baptized into His Death, it is in baptism where we’ve been crucified with Him (Rom 6:3, Gal 2:20)
We’ve been buried with Him in baptism (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12)
We’ll be raised from the dead, as Christ was, because of our baptism (Rom 6:4)
We’ve “clothed ourselves with Christ” in baptism (Gal 3:27)

Having heard, penitent, sins forgiven, Holy Spirit received, to the church added, judged faithful, in Christ, crucified with Him, died, buried, to be raised as He was, clothed with Him – in baptism.

In a very real sense, baptism IS the gospel - and I refuse to be ashamed of that any more.

You are putting the cart either in front or perhaps besides the horse. Paul noted if anyone preaches another gospel other than the one he preached then let them be accursed. He clearly states what is his gospel.
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

Baptism is a symbolic ritual of death and ressurection that we do in obedience to Jesus command after believing in the gospel. Baptism is not necessary for salvation but is an outward expression of an inward change. We should all be baptized if we believe the gospel.

DerSchweik · May 25, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
< snip > Paul noted if anyone preaches another gospel other than the one he preached then let them be accursed.

Agreed. Paul wrote this in his letter to the Galatians (Gal 1:8) - however his purpose in saying that was not to deny Christian baptism. In that same letter Paul actually dresses down Peter in front of everyone, saying “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?" (Gal 2:14ff). This is the issue Paul was addressing with the Galatians, this "other gospel" being preached by those who were seeking to have the Gentile converts adhere to the requirements of the Law.

At the end of that very same chapter, he concludes with "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal 2:20)

Question: how? When was Paul "crucified with Christ?" He clearly tells us in Romans 6:1ff - in BAPTISM. These are not difficult passages to understand; indeed, they're quite simple and clear.

But Paul continues in v. 21: "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” Now go back to Rom 6:1f for Paul clearly links the grace of God with the verses that follow - "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" It's virtually impossible to logically remove baptism from God's grace - or the gospel.

Consider finally from that same letter to the Galatians as Paul ties up his discourse on the Law: "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." (Gal 3:23ff)

According to Paul then, submitting to baptism is an act of faith and the point in time when we "clothe ourselves with Christ!"

Do you see that? It's not some weird, mystical, esoteric teaching - it's simple, straightforward good news!

Brian Mcnamee said:
He clearly states what is his gospel.
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

I've already quoted I Cor 15:1ff in previous posts. No argument whatsoever - this is indeed the gospel message.

Now that we agree this is the gospel message - what next?

Is that all Philip preached to the eunuch when he "preached Jesus" to him? His death, burial, and resurrection? How did the eunuch respond???

Brian Mcnamee said:
Baptism is a symbolic ritual of death and ressurection that we do in obedience to Jesus command after believing in the gospel.

Are you saying this or is this from your church's tradition? Are these the words of your teachers/preachers?

Granted though, there is symbolism in baptism - we don't physically die with Christ on the cross; nor are we physically buried with Him, nor are we physically resurrected with Him - yet.

Brian Mcnamee said:
Baptism is not necessary for salvation but is an outward expression of an inward change.

Book? Chapter? Verse(s)? Sadly, this is archaic Catholic teaching (Augustine, I think); but you should know this can be found nowhere in the bible - either explicitly or implicitly.

Brian Mcnamee said:
We should all be baptized if we believe the gospel.

You know, we agree on this - we SHOULD all be baptized if we believe the gospel. But I suspect our reasons for believing that are quite different.

What if someone refuses? Note that there are MANY in contemporary Christianity who claim Christ but who flat out refuse to be baptized - for salvation or otherwise. What happens to those who REFUSE baptism but still claim Christ as their savior? A slap on the hand? Maybe one less jewel in their crowns?

Unfortunately, Jesus wasn't so equivocal in His command: "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

I am not ashamed of the gospel...

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