Purveyor of Confusion

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As @Kylie told you in another thread, Christians hardly agree on anything. Thus, I would rather you just tell me [your] version of beliefs and events. :)
As I said to @Kylie on another thread, the FOUNDATION is sufficient.
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm going to cut you quite a bit of slack, since you entered this thread late...

I have been around and around, regarding interpretation of entire passages (i.e.) Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 14:25-33, etc... And regardless, even if we branch out even further, the translation(s) among Christians are hardly ever universal.

If so, please explain the shear number of denominations?
Youŕe right...you have been around and around...and as I said, and so has others as well, offering snippets if not read in context, is out of context. This is what you have been told on numerous accounts...and yet you keep offering snippets and your suggestions of what this snippet is saying...which sir, out of context is not at all what the snippet is saying...
The above verses, again...are snippets...and were answered, now more than 4 times...

I keep having to up the number, sir...I started with 3, than 4, and now, with this new post, it is now up to 5 times you have asked the same question which had been answered by more than one person on this thread and more than once per each of those who have responded...

Try reading snippets of any work and passing it off to one who has read the full work...they won´t be fooled...they will know that you skimmed the material rather than fully reading it.
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As I've asked others, including you...

How do you know Luke 14:25-33 does not include you? The verse makes no reference to Jesus only speaking to a very specific group, at a very specific finite time ;) Maybe Jesus deems your faith weak?
I have answered this already...Please read in context the whole chapter if you wish to discuss again that the one who builds his tower, HAS counted the cost...
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This offers absolutely no response to my points.
Please don´t speculate then...Don´t offer maybes or suggestions or opinions to the WORD of GOD...it is already written that Paul was forgiven his blasphemy and he was very much aware that he was an ignorant blasphemer...

Please don´t offer maybes to the WORD of GOD...it is better not to offer or open your mouth about things you don´t know...and things that are clearly written that contradict your maybes
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And I'm sure @Kylie, as well as myself, see this as a SUFFICIENT response :)
See sir, the FOUNDATION has been laid and HE has counted the cost...and knows how to build and will complete what is being built...

Luke 14For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

You might want to follow up with Zechariah 4
 
Upvote 0

cvanwey

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
5,165
733
64
California
✟144,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Youŕe right...you have been around and around...and as I said, and so has others as well, offering snippets if not read in context, is out of context. This is what you have been told on numerous accounts...and yet you keep offering snippets and your suggestions of what this snippet is saying...which sir, out of context is not at all what the snippet is saying...
The above verses, again...are snippets...and were answered, now more than 4 times...

I keep having to up the number, sir...I started with 3, than 4, and now, with this new post, it is now up to 5 times you have asked the same question which had been answered by more than one person on this thread and more than once per each of those who have responded...

Try reading snippets of any work and passing it off to one who has read the full work...they won´t be fooled...they will know that you skimmed the material rather than fully reading it.

Um, I thought I answered this already. We have thousands, if not millions, whom have read the Bible from cover to cover. How many denominations do we have again? And are they all united in the tenets to salvation?

And as I also told another, the next time I see someone holding up a 'John 3:16' sign at a sporting event, I'll make sure the people next to them point out to this person that they are 'cherry picking' :)

And furthermore, I went 'blow-by-blow' with verse(s), with others. Sorry you were not part of this... :(
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Um, I thought I answered this already. We have thousands, if not millions, whom have read the Bible from cover to cover. How many denominations do we have again? And are they all united in the tenets to salvation?

And as I also told another, the next time I see someone holding up a 'John 3:16' sign at a sporting event, I'll make sure the people next to them point out to this person that they are 'cherry picking' :)

And furthermore, I went 'blow-by-blow' with verse(s), with others. Sorry you were not part of this... :(
Um, I thought I answered that already too..

THE FOUNDATION is sufficient...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,664
5,233
✟293,710.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
As I said to @Kylie on another thread, the FOUNDATION is sufficient.

And as I have said, merely getting the basics the same doesn't mean anything if they disagree on the details. Because when things are objectively true, the details are the same for everyone.
 
Upvote 0

agapelove

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2020
840
754
28
San Diego
✟50,506.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I find conflict here. You state He is not playing hide-and-seek. And yet, you state what you state there-after; that God requires faith anyways? I prayed for over 30 years for Him to reveal His presence. I ultimately turned away from the assertion of God. And one of the reasons was that He never presented His presence to me.

This seems to contradict
Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23

Trust is earned. Perceived perpetual failure to acknowledge one's genuine request(s) does not earn 'trust.'

And to state I have faith anyways, would only be a lie. Seems like a rather odd criteria from such a claimed entity, in light of the fact many claim that God DOES contact them on a regular basis?
God says “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.” (Exodus 33:20) The definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

I'm not sure what you mean by "reveal His presence". Are you expecting an angel, a supernatural miracle, words in the sky? I personally have never been contacted this way. We meet God in the quiet spaces of our lives, not through "catalysts". You do not have to have something dramatic or tragic happen to you to have a change of heart. I previously told you how I have personally encountered God in my life-- in moments of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (John 4:24, Galatians 5:22-23). I am sure you have had your fair share of these experiences. When you start to see God in those places then you will be able to say God is everywhere. This is how God reveals Himself for now.

Exodus 33:23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

God is preparing creation to be ready to stand in the full presence of God, but we are not yet ready. I will pray for you but I hope that you will allow yourself to open your heart up to God again. I hope that your time here on CF is not for nothing.

First, to answer your question. Thank you, yet again. This completely coincides with post #1 - "provider of confusion"
And second, I asked if you could pray, on my behalf? And if God ever answers your request, this would mean God does answer intercessory prayer. Which would mean I would receive a response. Which in turn, I would let you know.

As stated above, I prayed for His contact for decades, and nothing. So yes, He does apparently hold something 'against' me. He would ultimately want me to state I believe anyways, which would be a lie. Seems like a rather odd set of circumstances?
I have never disagreed with you on that point, so not sure why you keep bringing it up. You are not the only one who struggles with the mysteries of God! Who are you to demand things from Him? "And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:23)" Sure, three decades is a long time but the Israelites wandered the desert for FORTY and before that they were enslaved for 430. Maybe God's plan is to make you the most patient person in the world!

Are you stating there exists levels in heaven - like the military, or Mormon-like thinking?
I do not know what Mormons believe, but I believe we receive a variety of rewards in the next life. The Bible depicts different "Heavenly Crowns" each believer can adorn (James 1:12, 1 Corinthians 9:25, 2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:19).

So again, in a round-about sort of way, you are stating that ultimately, either directly, or after some 'purification' process, all humans eventually go to heaven. And if this is the case, God leads many to think that some of their loved ones, whom do not comply, might reside in a place a torture eternally.

Does this sound like a 'loving' God to [you]? God's chosen portal of communication leads millions to believe that hell is forever, and that many fear that some of their loved ones might end up there.

If [you] knew your loved ones were mistaken, and [you] had full ability to correct them, would [you] purposefully avoid correcting them?
A God that will save all? That God sounds more 'loving' than the one you may have been taught! I have faith that EVERYTHING God does is out of love-- even when he withholds information! There are a lot of questionable things God has done... yet He says "I know the plans I have for you! Plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future! (Jeremiah 29:11)" Why ask me what I would do? God knows INFINITELY more than me.

Disagree. Example...

Before the last U.S. election, I believed Trump could not win. Could I believe now, that he is not the assigned U.S. president; in light of the resulting provided evidence/results? Only if I was in denial, which is basically lying to myself....

Belief is not a choice. Again, I could protect my current belief, by choosing to avoid further presented evidence. However, once the evidence is presented, and I understand the evidence as presented, it either changes my mind, or maybe I live in denial, or the evidence does not alter my current position.

The same goes for "God." It is not my choice, that I feel I never received any contact from Him.
But in regards to believing in something you do not currently believe exists, you cannot. Otherwise, will yourself to believe in a pudding-filled-moon, goblins, the tooth fairy, pigs being able to fly, etc... You cannot without some sort of catalyst :)
What can we really do for you if you have already decided to stand firm in your disbelief? You say you want a catalyst yet you've shut up all contact with God. It looks like for the past 36 pages people have tried to offer you evidence... now it is YOUR JOB to follow the evidence. All I've been hearing from you is "Nope, too confusing, doesn't make sense, not worth my time, I give up, I don't have a choice." Maybe you think you cannot choose what you believe but you CAN make CHOICES that AFFECT your beliefs.

I really hope you know, just because you have stopped trying does not mean God did too. Prayers to you. :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,664
5,233
✟293,710.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
God says “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.” (Exodus 33:20) The definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

I'm not sure what you mean by "reveal His presence". Are you expecting an angel, a supernatural miracle, words in the sky? I personally have never been contacted this way. We meet God in the quiet spaces of our lives, not through "catalysts". You do not have to have something dramatic or tragic happen to you to have a change of heart. I previously told you how I have personally encountered God in my life-- in moments of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (John 4:24, Galatians 5:22-23). I am sure you have had your fair share of these experiences. When you start to see God in those places then you will be able to say God is everywhere. This is how God reveals Himself for now.

Exodus 33:23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

God is preparing creation to be ready to stand in the full presence of God, but we are not yet ready. I will pray for you but I hope that you will allow yourself to open your heart up to God again. I hope that your time here on CF is not for nothing.

Genesis 32:30 and Exodus 33:11
 
  • Agree
Reactions: miknik5
Upvote 0

agapelove

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2020
840
754
28
San Diego
✟50,506.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Genesis 32:30 and Exodus 33:11

Hi there. If you would read those two verses in its context you would know that in Genesis 32 Jacob is interacting with angels, and in Exodus 33 God reveals Himself as a burning bush-- I hope you do not think God's face is literally a burning bush.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Nonetheless, Jesus does state "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

Interpret that however you want. Not really the main point of my original post.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,664
5,233
✟293,710.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Hi there. If you would read those two verses in its context you would know that in Genesis 32 Jacob is interacting with angels, and in Exodus 33 God reveals Himself as a burning bush-- I hope you do not think God's face is literally a burning bush.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Nonetheless, Jesus does state "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

Interpret that however you want. Not really the main point of my original post.

Both passages make it clear that it was GOD who was seen FACE TO FACE.

It wasn't angels seen face to face, and it wasn't God seen face to bush.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

agapelove

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2020
840
754
28
San Diego
✟50,506.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Both passages make it clear that it was GOD who was seen FACE TO FACE.

It wasn't angels seen face to face, and it wasn't God seen face to bush.

What’s CLEAR is that you don’t know how to read context.

Genesis 32: It says a “MAN” wrestled with Jacob and Hosea 12:4 confirms that it was an ANGEL. Verse 30 is referring to what Jacob decides to name that place, “Peniel” which means FACE OF GOD.

Exodus 33: God Himself tells Moses no one can see His face TWO TIMES in that VERY SAME CHAPTER. Verse 11 is not saying Moses literally saw God’s face but that they talked “as a man speaketh unto his friend.” In fact Acts 7:30 states it was actually an Angel of God who appeared to Moses.

But sure, feel free to make up contradictions where they don’t exist. I am sure our friend cvanwey appreciates your efforts to confuse him even more.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,664
5,233
✟293,710.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
What’s CLEAR is that you don’t know how to read context.

Genesis 32: It says a “MAN” wrestled with Jacob and Hosea 12:4 confirms that it was an ANGEL. Verse 30 is referring to what Jacob decides to name that place, “Peniel” which means FACE OF GOD.

Exodus 33: God Himself tells Moses no one can see His face TWO TIMES in that VERY SAME CHAPTER. Verse 11 is not saying Moses literally saw God’s face but that they talked “as a man speaketh unto his friend.” In fact Acts 7:30 states it was actually an Angel of God who appeared to Moses.

But sure, feel free to make up contradictions where they don’t exist. I am sure our friend cvanwey appreciates your efforts to confuse him even more.

Genesis 32:28 says that the man who Jacob wrestled with was actually God. You, however, are claiming it was a man, but then you change your mind and say it was an angel.

And what you say about Exodus 33:11 doesn't change the fact that it clearly states that Moses and God spoke FACE TO FACE. And once again, you are changing your mind. You claim that it doesn't say Moses saw God face to face, Moses just chatted to God like friends. And then you change yours tory and say it wasn't actually God, but an angel.

Both of these sound to me like people saw old texts and then added into latter texts passages to try to retcon the earlier events to match the "No one can see God face to face" rule. It's exactly the sort of thing I'd expect from something written by humans and not an accurate account of something that happened.
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And as I have said, merely getting the basics the same doesn't mean anything if they disagree on the details. Because when things are objectively true, the details are the same for everyone.
And as I said, and repeat, the FOUNDATION is sufficient...and anyone who has their feet on THE FOUNDATION it is sufficient to them...
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Genesis 32:30 and Exodus 33:11
Deuteronomy 18 is sufficient....and THE NT fulfills this...

Remember, the people said we do not want to hear the VOICE of GOD,lest we die...and asked Moses to speak for HIM and they would listen to Moses...

GOD said,in Deuteronomy 18, they have spoken well what they have spoken and declares:

I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

agapelove

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2020
840
754
28
San Diego
✟50,506.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Genesis 32:28 says that the man who Jacob wrestled with was actually God. You, however, are claiming it was a man, but then you change your mind and say it was an angel.

And what you say about Exodus 33:11 doesn't change the fact that it clearly states that Moses and God spoke FACE TO FACE. And once again, you are changing your mind. You claim that it doesn't say Moses saw God face to face, Moses just chatted to God like friends. And then you change yours tory and say it wasn't actually God, but an angel.

Both of these sound to me like people saw old texts and then added into latter texts passages to try to retcon the earlier events to match the "No one can see God face to face" rule. It's exactly the sort of thing I'd expect from something written by humans and not an accurate account of something that happened.

Okay Kylie.

Feel free to argue with thin air. I am not “changing my mind” about anything because I’ve made it clear from the beginning what I think.

“When my case went to court, the Judge threw the book at me.”

Context is important, ma’am. The judge does not literally throw the book at me. It’s exactly the sort of thing I’d expect from humans who isolate texts and make erroneous judgments. You believe the Bible cannot be trusted because of others just like you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: miknik5
Upvote 0