debt vs. trespass

quintessentialramble said:

I recently heard a sermon where the pastor used the phrases "trespass" in regards to the Lord's Prayer.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we also forgive those who trespass against us."
But I have always seen this passage as debts...but really, more about sin.
The pastor made it seem more about personal boundaries, rather than making it about forgiveness of those who sin against us. Basically the pastor was talking about creating a new normal life with those who trespass against you by implementing boundaries against them. To me this seems counter to the intended meaning of the Scripture of forgiving the trespass.

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The words forgive us our trespasses, forgive us our sins, and forgive us our debts have all been used in translations of the Lord’s Prayer. The Greek verses in Matthew differ from the Greek verses in Luke.

We should forgive, if we want forgiveness for our own mistakes. Some debts should be forgiven/written off as uncollectible instead of allowing resentments to cause anger or harm. Some lenders require collateral to prevent loss. Credit card companies have credit limits to prevent major loss, as some people filed for bankruptcy. Charity is a gift one gives without expecting a payment in return, only perhaps a blessing, if God likes what is given.

quintessentialramble said:

I recently heard a sermon where the pastor used the phrases "trespass" in regards to the Lord's Prayer.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we also forgive those who trespass against us."
But I have always seen this passage as debts...but really, more about sin.
The pastor made it seem more about personal boundaries, rather than making it about forgiveness of those who sin against us. Basically the pastor was talking about creating a new normal life with those who trespass against you by implementing boundaries against them. To me this seems counter to the intended meaning of the Scripture of forgiving the trespass.

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You said, "To me this seems counter to the intended meaning of the Scripture of forgiving the trespass." I totally agree.

The pastor was most probably using the King James Version. Matthew 6:14-15,

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Here are better translations of Matthew 6:14-15...

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
(NIV)

“For if you forgive others their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive you your sins."
(NET Bible)

For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
(NASB)

“For if you forgive people their wrongdoing, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well. But if you don’t forgive people, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoing.
(HCSB)

James 4-17 commentary: "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. Transgression is rebelling against God. It refers to presumptuous sin.

I recommend using modern translations instead of those that use archaic English. The confusion over "trespass" is a perfect example of how misinterpretations can occur.

Are those translations "better" because they make the matter more clear in our understanding of the scripture or are they "better" because they are a closer translation of the source Greek texts? Any experts on Greek want to help us out here?

seeking.IAM said:

Are those translations "better" because they make the matter more clear in our understanding of the scripture or are they "better" because they are a closer translation of the source Greek texts? Any experts on Greek want to help us out here?

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They are better because they make God's Word more understandable to people living in the 21st Century who speak/read/write modern English.

Let me inform you about translation... Koine Greek (as well as ancient Hebrew and Aramaic) is very dissimilar to modern English in 1) word meaning, 2) grammatical structure -- for example, verb tenses exist that have no counterpart to English, and 3 (perhaps most important) we do not live in a society that even remotely compares to theirs, so our thinking processes are very different. Translation is both a science and an art. If people think that all you need is a Greek lexicon to be a translator, they are sadly mistaken.

Take idioms for example, if you get my drift. Right now it's raining cats and dogs. I heard an old wives' tale about making hay while the sun shines, but that's probably from watching the boob tube too much. As we learn from cable news, the Dow has taken a terrible hit recently but keep your fingers crossed. Until happy days are here again, maybe I should go online and have a zoom meeting or connect on Facebook instead.

Nobody from the time when the Biblical "books" were written would have any idea what I was talking about; they would think I was out of my mind (another idiom). Similarly we have a hard time understanding Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic idioms. And the Bible is filled with them.

That is just one example of why Bible translation should, by and large (another idiom), be left to committees of scholars that have devoted their careers to creating Bible translations that balance word-for-word (impossible) and meaning-for meaning.

The Bible is meant to be understood not obfuscated. Can you dig what I'm saying?

pescador said:

They are better because they make God's Word more understandable to people living in the 21st Century who speak/read/write modern English...That is just one example of why Bible translation should, by and large (another idiom), be left to committees of scholars that have devoted their careers to creating Bible translations that balance word-for-word (impossible) and meaning-for meaning...Can you dig what I'm saying?

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Absolutely I understand. I just didn't know if you were that Biblical scholar, whether you liked a word that fit your understanding, or whether you liked a word that more closely reflected the source text.

Can you expound on words used in source texts for the Lord's prayer and how they would most accurately be translated into to day's English? Literal please, not paraphrased. Thank you.

seeking.IAM said:

Absolutely I understand. I just didn't know if you were that Biblical scholar, whether you liked a word that fit your understanding, or whether you liked a word that more closely reflected the source text.

Can you expound on words used in source texts for the Lord's prayer and how they would most accurately be translated into to day's English? Literal please, not paraphrased. Thank you.

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The best translations are done by committee in order to come to a consensus of how the ancient languages should be translated.

I don't have the source texts, or rather a collection of source texts, so I am not able to translate "The Lord's Prayer". BTW, it is impossible to translate any Biblical text "literally" because of the differences in word meaning(s), the difference in grammatical tenses, and how those texts were understood by the ancient peoples.

quintessentialramble said:

Basically the pastor was talking about creating a new normal life with those who trespass against you by implementing boundaries against them. To me this seems counter to the intended meaning of the Scripture of forgiving the trespass.

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I don't think forgiving means you are required to trust someone.

In all our relating, I understand, God wants us to submit to Him and obey if and how He has us trust each person.

No one is to be our dictator about if and how we must trust that person.

Plus, then, we ourselves need to be humble and welcome people to make sure with God about if and how they trust us, never have an entitlement attitude >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

quintessentialramble said:

I recently heard a sermon where the pastor used the phrases "trespass" in regards to the Lord's Prayer.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we also forgive those who trespass against us."
But I have always seen this passage as debts...but really, more about sin.
The pastor made it seem more about personal boundaries, rather than making it about forgiveness of those who sin against us. Basically the pastor was talking about creating a new normal life with those who trespass against you by implementing boundaries against them. To me this seems counter to the intended meaning of the Scripture of forgiving the trespass.

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In Matthew 6:12, the word is ὀφειλήματα (opheilēmata, G3783, from the verb opheilō, to owe), which means "debts" or "things that are owed."

Every Bible that I've checked has "and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" or similar words for that verse.

In Luke 11:4, the first word is ἁμαρτίας (hamartias, G266), which means "sins."

There again, every Bible I've checked has "and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us" or similar words for that verse.

Neither of those Greek words is controversial.

Matthew 6:14 introduces the word παραπτώματα (paraptōmata, G3900, from the verb parapiptō, to fall beside), meaning "stumbles" or "lapses" or "faults."

This is traditionally translated "trespasses," but it does not mean "trespassing a boundary." It sounds to me like the pastor mentioned misinterpreted the word as a result of insufficient study. It is one of those English words that has changed in meaning over the past few hundred years.

The CSB translates well with "For if you forgive others their offenses, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well."

Since the word is translated "sins" elsewhere in the New Testament, the NIV is also good with: "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."

seeking.IAM said:

Absolutely I understand. I just didn't know if you were that Biblical scholar, whether you liked a word that fit your understanding, or whether you liked a word that more closely reflected the source text.

Can you expound on words used in source texts for the Lord's prayer and how they would most accurately be translated into to day's English? Literal please, not paraphrased. Thank you.

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I thought about your post some more. First of all, which "Lord's prayer" are you talking about? There is a "Lord's prayer" in Matthew and there is another one in Luke.

Matthew wrote...

Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored,
may your kingdom come,
may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts, as we ourselves have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Luke wrote...

Father, may your name be honored;
may your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And do not lead us into temptation.

Both from the NET Bible, my preferred translation, but you can look them up in whatever translation you prefer.

Secondly, you do realize, I hope, that there are no original scrolls of any of the New Testament. Translators have to decide which copies are the most accurate and what additions, if any, have been added by scribes and other translators throughout history.

There is no such thing as a pure, inerrant translation. Translating is a difficult art/science where many decisions have to be made about the meanings of words, grammatical structure, idioms used, etc. There is no one-to-one correspondence between the ancient writings and English.

You might want to log on to biblegateway.com and do your own research. They have many different versions available as well as commentaries, etc. to help with understanding.

I hope that this helps.

I know their is no original text. I was hoping we could go with a translation from some of the oldest texts. And, I don't care Matthew or Luke. How about both?

seeking.IAM said:

I know their is no original text. I was hoping we could go with a translation from some of the oldest texts. And, I don't care Matthew or Luke. How about both?

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I just did that.

seeking.IAM said:

I know their is no original text. I was hoping we could go with a translation from some of the oldest texts. And, I don't care Matthew or Luke. How about both?

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I am not a Bible translator. I would suggest that you go to biblegateway.com and look up the verses using the NET Bible. It has many, many translators' notes about the entire Bible -- about 60,000! It's the translation I use for serious Bible reading.

quintessentialramble said:

The original Greek alphabet was influenced by the Phoenicians around 500 BC

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This is true; in fact the Greek alphabet was pretty much copied from Phoenician, except that the Greeks had to invent the idea of a vowel.

But that really makes no difference to the question here. It doesn't really matter whether we write Matthew 6:12 in Greek letters like καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφήκαμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν or in Latin letters like kaì áphes hēmîn tà opheilḗmata hēmōn, hōs kaì hēmeîs aphḗkamen toîs opheilétais hēmōn.

The important thing, as I said before, is that opheilḗmata means "debts" or "things that are owed."

Even the ending of the prayer could be interpreted in two ways. "...apo tou ponērou." Most everyone just uses, "deliver us from evil." However, if we translate all the words here, it really should read, "from the evil (one)" Tou is the definite article yet gets dropped off in English. The only place that used "deliver us from the evil one" was at seminary. It does emphasize that we are asking to be delivered not from generic evil but a specific evil one.

GreekOrthodox said:

Even the ending of the prayer could be interpreted in two ways. "...apo tou ponērou." Most everyone just uses, "deliver us from evil." However, if we translate all the words here, it really should read, "from the evil (one)" Tou is the definite article yet gets dropped off in English.

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That doesn't entirely follow, because the article could be either genitive masculine ("the evil one") or genitive neuter ("the evil" or "Evil," since a Greek article often translates into English as a capital letter).

The KJV, NASB, ESV, and several others have "evil." Many others have "evil one."

Radagast said:

That doesn't entirely follow, because the article could be either genitive masculine ("the evil one") or genitive neuter ("the evil" or "Evil," since a Greek article often translates into English as a capital letter).

The KJV, NASB, ESV, and several others have "evil." Many others have "evil one."

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Right, it can be translated both ways, which does expand the meaning in English. I havent seen a Bible with "evil one". Eh, learn something new everyday! Hope you are doing well! PS forgot to thank you for the suggestion on the Bible with Greek & English.

GreekOrthodox said:

Right, it can be translated both ways, which does expand the meaning in English. I havent seen a Bible with "evil one". Eh, learn something new everyday!

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Take a look at the list: Matthew 6:13 - Bible Gateway

And the NKJV is one version with "the evil one." I'm sure that at least one Orthodox Bible has a New Testament based on the NKJV.

GreekOrthodox said:

PS forgot to thank you for the suggestion on the Bible with Greek & English.

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De nada. Hope it was useful.

I'm reading a RSV that I have simply because it is larger print than some of my other versions. A lot of my reading is now done in Greek simply because I am one of the readers at my church. Sadly, I havent been inside my church since mid March. We finally open again May 31st but we have to register to attend so they can plan for social distance seating.