The Sabbath of the TEN Commandments - for all mankind (V2)

BobRyan

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Every male among you

Indeed... the entire planet of gentiles did not travel with Abraham and that includes Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes as the "priest of God" in his day. No Bible text in OT or NT says that "without circumcision there is no salvation" for gentiles.

Yes, No one can be save by the physical circumcision( by hand) BUT you must be circumcise spiritually (by Spirit) in order for you to belong to Christ

True.

Rom 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God

That is the "one gospel" of all ages - Gal 1:6-9 says there is only ONE Gospel

But in Acts 15:1-2 we have the "false doctrine" addressed by the Jerusalem church that says this on a topic that is NOT "spiritual circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit" - -

==================================

Acts 15
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.

...

“The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24 “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, ...
 
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HARK!

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Why bring an invented term known as "the Oral Law" into this discussion?

Because it was those who were pushing the oral law, the traditions of men, that which Yahshua rebuked, that prompted the Council of Jerusalem.
 
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BABerean2

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Because it was those who were pushing the oral law, the traditions of men, that which Yahshua rebuked, that prompted the Council of Jerusalem.


Are you claiming "the Oral Law" has nothing to do with the Sinai Covenant?

.
 
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BABerean2

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Is the "yoke" the "Word of God" that no one is able to bear? Scripture? the "Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19?? Or is the "yoke" that which Christ Himself condemned in Mark 7:6-13 - the "traditions of man" that he slam-hammered sola-scriptura?

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

.
 
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pasifika

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Indeed... the entire planet of gentiles did not travel with Abraham and that includes Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes as the "priest of God" in his day. No Bible text in OT or NT says that "without circumcision there is no salvation" for gentiles.



True.

Rom 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God

That is the "one gospel" of all ages - Gal 1:6-9 says there is only ONE Gospel
So you know Now that circumcision is needed for salvation, the circumcision by the Spirit...the physical circumcision point to spiritual circumcision....So if Melchizedek belong to God then he also circumcised spiritual in order to belong to God....
 
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Andre_b

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The book of which covenant? It was the book of the Sinai Covenant, which is the 10 commandments found in Exodus 34:28.

The 603 laws were given to explain how to keep the 10 commandments.

For example... What do you do if your neighbor's ox comes over into your field and steals your grass?
How were the children of Israel to handle that situation?

.

Did you just ignore what I just asked? The covenant of Ten commandments are INSIDE the ark
The book of the Covenant are beside the ark. Why separate them?
 
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Andre_b

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Not based on the scripture below.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


The above is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16-29.

Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham, "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

Therefore, Paul confirmed the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant.

.

There's also many covenants:
According to you the rainbow of Noah is no longer a covenant valid today because of the new covenant? We have the possibility of having a worldwide flood via another judgement?

The book of the covenant was beside the ark.
The covenant of the ten commandments was inside the ark.

Why are there 2 separated covenants?
 
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HARK!

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According to you the rainbow of Noah is no longer a covenant valid today because of the new covenant?

I've often wondered why they don't abolish the covenant with Noah, along with everything else that they rip out of the Bible. What's particularly puzzling is that they embrace part of the covenant with Abraham; but they reject other parts of the same covenant.
 
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BobRyan

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I posted this

Every male among you

Indeed... the entire planet of gentiles did not travel with Abraham and that includes Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes as the "priest of God" in his day. No Bible text in OT or NT says that "without circumcision there is no salvation" for gentiles.

Yes, No one can be save by the physical circumcision( by hand) BUT you must be circumcise spiritually (by Spirit) in order for you to belong to Christ

True.

Rom 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God

That is the "one gospel" of all ages - Gal 1:6-9 says there is only ONE Gospel

But in Acts 15:1-2 we have the "false doctrine" addressed by the Jerusalem church that says this on a topic that is NOT "spiritual circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit" - -

==================================

Acts 15
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.

...

“The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24 “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, ...

And you posted this

So you know Now that circumcision is needed for salvation, the circumcision by the Spirit...the physical circumcision point to spiritual circumcision....

But the false doctrine that physical circumcision was required of gentiles for salvation is as Acts 15 above points out ... is false doctrine.
 
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Andre_b

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2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

.

2 Corinthians 3:5-9
The subject here is not the doing away with laws but the change in administration of existing laws. Remember that Jesus said not one jot or tittle will pass from the law (Matthew 5:18). In Hebrews 8:10, where the context is the Covenant, the New Covenant is shown to have laws, which will be written in our hearts.

Paul is making a comparison, showing the superiority of the ministry's responsibility under the New Covenant to the priesthood's responsibility under the Old. He compares ink with spirit, stone with flesh, letter with spirit (or intent), and death with life.

The "ministration of death" was Israel's civil administration for punishing violations of civil law. The laws were not done away, but the Old Covenant administration and enforcement of the law was set aside because the church does not have civil authority. It is that simple.

The church does not have civil authority over the state. However, the ministry has the opportunity to play a large part in the ministering of life to those God calls—through teaching and administering God's Word. Thus, the letter killed because the Old Covenant could not provide for life. Words—even of divine origin—cannot produce life. A vitalizing Spirit must be present to charge the words with transforming power.

Under the Old Covenant, God did not promise His Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sin, access into His presence, or eternal life. Jesus raised the civil law from its merely carnal application to the nation of Israel to its spiritual application to the church, which would be drawn from all of mankind, including, of course, the Gentiles.

2 Corinthians 3:7
When Paul speaks of "the ministry of death," he refers to the administration of the Old Covenant rather than the Ten Commandments. The Levitical priesthood, a carnal priesthood based on physical descent from Levi, administered the Old Covenant. This covenant provided no promise of eternal life and no means for sinners to receive forgiveness because "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4). Therefore, the people lived and died under the condemnation of the law, and "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

Another reason why Paul refers to the Old Covenant as "the ministry of death" is that Godrequired the Levitical priesthood to execute those who transgressed certain laws. God's law mandates the death penalty for certain sins like murder and dishonoring parents (Exodus 21:12-17), Sabbath-breaking (Exodus 31:14-15) and certain sexual sins (Leviticus 20:10-13). The priests were responsible to enforce the death penalty by actually putting such transgressors to death in the proscribed manner. In this sense, the Old Covenant ministry was indeed a "ministry of death."

However, why did Paul say that the "ministry of death," the administration of the Old Covenant, was "written and engraved on stones"? Was it not the Ten Commandments that God wrote on two stone tablets? Even though the Ten Commandments were not the covenant itself (a covenant is simply an agreement between two parties), they were the terms of the covenant. Because the Ten Commandments constituted the part of the agreement between God and Israel that the Israelites agreed to keep, the Old Covenant became synonymous with the Ten Commandments. In Deuteronomy 4:13 Moses writes, "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tables of stone." To put it another way, "keeping the Old Covenant" was the same as "keeping the Ten Commandments."

A paraphrase of the first eleven words of II Corinthians 3:7 helps to clarify what Paul means: "But if the administration of the Old Covenant, [the terms of which were] written and engraved on stones. . . ." The Ten Commandments undergirded all the laws that God gave to Israel—laws that the Israelites could not keep. The responsibility to teach these laws to Israel and enforce penalties for disobedience, including the death penalty, fell to the priests.

Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? (Hebrews 7:11)

When Moses went up Mount Sinai the second time to receive the Ten Commandments, he wrote God's statutes and judgments in a book, and God wrote the Ten Commandments on two tables of stone. This, in essence, finalized the "contract" that God made with Israel.

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. (Exodus 34:27-28)

Verses 29-35 then describe how Moses face shone when he delivered the Ten Commandments and the book of the law to Israel.

So what is passing away? Hebrews 8:13 provides the answer: "In that He says, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." The Old Covenant and the Old Covenant ministry, the Levitical priesthood, are passing away, not the Ten Commandments!
 
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Andre_b

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2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

.
Please explain why the book of the covenant is beside the ark, but the Ten Commandments covenant is inside the ark?
 
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Andre_b

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2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

.

2 Corinthians 3:3 is clear that the Ten Commandments are no longer on two tables of stone but now tablets of the heart.

"Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." This is clearly the parallel of the Ten Commandments. So you are clearly misunderstanding the ministry of death in the verses that follow.
 
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BABerean2

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2 Corinthians 3:3 is clear that the Ten Commandments are no longer on two tables of stone but now tablets of the heart.

"Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." This is clearly the parallel of the Ten Commandments. So you are clearly misunderstanding the ministry of death in the verses that follow.


If it is "parallel" to the ten commandments, why did Paul compel the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31?


Why are we not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 7:12?


Why did Paul compel the Colossian church not to judge others in sabbath days in Colossians 2:16-17?

.
 
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Why did Paul compel the Colossian church not to judge others in sabbath days in Colossians 2:16-17?

Paul is talking about putting the uncircumcision of their flesh behind them. These are YHWH's set apart days. He not telling his followers not to be judged by those who observe YHWH's set apart days, including himself. He's telling them not to let their Pagan friends and family judge them as the keep YHWH's appointed times.

I went through this myself as a became obedient to YHWH's commands. There was all kinds of pressure to go back to the old ways, in opposition to YHWH's perfect Torah.
 
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BABerean2

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Paul is talking about putting the uncircumcision of their flesh behind them.

What would an unbiased witness say upon reading the verse?

The word "circumcision" in not in the text.

Colossians 2:16

(CJB) So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat.

(ESV) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

(Geneva) Let no man therefore condemne you in meate and drinke, or in respect of an holy day, or of the newe moone, or of the Sabbath dayes,

(Greek NT TR) μη ουν τις υμας κρινετω εν βρωσει η εν ποσει η εν μερει εορτης η νουμηνιας η σαββατων

(GW) Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days.

(LITV-TSP) Then do not let anyone judge you in eating, or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or the new moon, or of sabbaths,

(KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

(KJV+) Let noG3361 manG5100 thereforeG3767 judgeG2919 youG5209 inG1722 meat,G1035 orG2228 inG1722 drink,G4213 orG2228 inG1722 respectG3313 of an holyday,G1859 orG2228 of the new moon,G3561 orG2228 of the sabbathG4521 days:

(NKJV) So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

(NLT) So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.

(YLT) Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,

.
 
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Dkh587

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What would an unbiased witness say upon reading the verse?

The word "circumcision" in not in the text.

Colossians 2:16

(CJB) So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat.

(ESV) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

(Geneva) Let no man therefore condemne you in meate and drinke, or in respect of an holy day, or of the newe moone, or of the Sabbath dayes,

(Greek NT TR) μη ουν τις υμας κρινετω εν βρωσει η εν ποσει η εν μερει εορτης η νουμηνιας η σαββατων

(GW) Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days.

(LITV-TSP) Then do not let anyone judge you in eating, or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or the new moon, or of sabbaths,

(KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

(KJV+) Let noG3361 manG5100 thereforeG3767 judgeG2919 youG5209 inG1722 meat,G1035 orG2228 inG1722 drink,G4213 orG2228 inG1722 respectG3313 of an holyday,G1859 orG2228 of the new moon,G3561 orG2228 of the sabbathG4521 days:

(NKJV) So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

(NLT) So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.

(YLT) Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,

.
An unbiased witness wouldn’t isolate and cherry pick a single verse and distort the context, for starters.
 
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BABerean2

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An unbiased witness wouldn’t isolate and cherry pick a single verse and distort the context, for starters.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

.
 
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Andre_b

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Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

.

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days . . .” he wrote (KJV). Let’s examine these verses’ context and historic setting to see if they support that view.

Did Paul intend to say that God’s laws are abolished? If so, we find some immediate problems. If this is what he meant, it’s difficult to explain why he left the issue so muddled by not clearly stating that these practices were unnecessary. After all, the Colossian church was primarily gentile (Colossians 2:13), so Paul could have used this epistle to make it plain that these practices were not binding on Christians.

However, Paul nowhere said that. Instead, regarding the practices of festivals, new moons and Sabbaths, he said only to “let no one judge you,” which is quite different from saying these practices are unnecessary or obsolete.

A more basic question to ask is whether Old Testament practices were even at the core of what Paul was addressing here. Was Paul even discussing whether Christians should keep the laws regarding clean and unclean meats, the biblical festivals, the weekly Sabbath or any other Old Testament laws?

When we read the rest of this chapter, it quickly becomes obvious that other issues were involved. Among these were “principalities and powers” (Colossians 2:15), “false humility and worship of angels” (verse 18), ascetic rules forbidding to touch, taste and handle (Colossians 2:21) and “neglect of the body” (Colossians 2:23).

Further, Paul referred to the false teachings in Colosse as rooted in “persuasive words” (Colossians 2:4), “philosophy and empty deceit” and “the tradition of men” (verse 8). He also referred to submitting to “regulations” of this world (Colossians 2:20) and “the commandments and doctrines of men” (Colossians 2:22).

Could Paul, who in Romans 7:12 described God’s law as “holy and just and good,” possibly be referring to the same law here, or is he addressing something entirely different?

When we consider the historical context, the answer becomes clear. As the Church expanded from the Holy Land into pagan areas such as Asia Minor, Italy and Greece, it had to deal with pagan philosophies, some with very ascetic beliefs. These influences are particularly noticeable in the writings of Paul, Peter and John.

Some of these philosophies overlapped in the idea that spirit is good while matter is evil. The physical body, consisting of matter, was considered evil. And since the body was evil, it was to be treated harshly.

The Colossian Christians were being judged by a worldly philosophy for how they observed festivals, new moons and Sabbaths—which they apparently did in a joyous and festive manner. The Colossians celebrated these days in a manner that was entirely contrary to the ascetic approach of self-denial. They understood that the Sabbaths and annual festivals are clearly commanded in the Old Testament. (New moons, it should be noted, were used as the biblical markers of time but never declared to be sacred Sabbaths, nor are they listed among the annual sacred festivals.)

By cautioning the Colossian members not to let others judge them for how they observed these times, Paul didn’t question whether they should be kept. The obvious implication of these verses is that these gentile Christians were in fact observing these days, and in no way did Paul tell them to desist.

Instead, the issue he addressed is that Christians should not let others judge them by misguided ascetic standards concerning what they ate or drank or how they observed the Sabbaths or festivals (verse 16).

Colossians 2 is actually a condemnation of ascetic human philosophy, not a discussion of which laws are binding for Christians!
 
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