Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

agapelove · May 23, 2020

Der Alte said:
Please see my response in the other thread re: Clement of Alexandria. Do you see any redemptive purpose in the following passages?

Yes! I do! You seem to be trying REAL HARD to portray God as evil. Careful.... that's called blasphemy. I really can't believe that I have to sit here and explain to you God is good, all the time. Isn't that the kind of stuff you learn in church?

Der Alte said:
Genesis 7:21-22
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Genesis 5:4-5 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

There are 2 theories about who the Nephilim were. (1) Offspring from fallen angels/humans or (2) Offspring from the line of Cain. Both are plausible since the issue at hand was widespread violence, for which Cain was patient zero. (see Lamech in Genesis 4). The Nephilim were probably barbarians. God says their wickedness had become so great that every inclination of their thought was evil. They would have slaughtered each other until there was no man left. A flood would have been more merciful.

Genesis 5:13-16 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.

This is the end of the story that you casually left out. The flood narrative is one of the most redeeming stories in the Bible. God literally redeemed the WORLD, cleansing it of its wickedness and sanctioning an everlasting covenant.

Der Alte said:
Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.

I don't think you understand that this was a victory for the Israelites? The destruction of the Canaanites meant the Israelites would go forth into the Promised Land, furthering God's ultimate plan of redemption.

Der Alte said:
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

Again these are all referring to VICTORIES for the Israelites. Verse 16 "The cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for inheritance." Their conquest of the cities furthered God's ultimate plan of redemption

Der Alte said:
Jeremiah 13:11
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Jeremiah 33 6 Nevertheless, I will bring health and healing to it; I will heal my people and will let them enjoy abundant peace and security. 7 I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before. 8 I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me. 9 Then this city will bring me renown, joy, praise and honor before all nations on earth that hear of all the good things I do for it; and they will be in awe and will tremble at the abundant prosperity and peace I provide for it.’

10 “This is what the Lord says: ‘You say about this place, “It is a desolate waste, without people or animals.” Yet in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem that are deserted, inhabited by neither people nor animals, there will be heard once more 11 the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, and the voices of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the Lord, saying, “Give thanks to the Lord Almighty, for the Lord is good; his love endures forever.”

For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were before,’ says the Lord. 12 “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘In this place, desolate and without people or animals—in all its towns there will again be pastures for shepherds to rest their flocks. 13 In the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem and in the towns of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hand of the one who counts them,’ says the Lord.

14 “‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah. 15 “‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;he will do what is just and right in the land. 16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUS SAVIOR."

Saint Steven · May 23, 2020

CaspianSails said:
Sorry, I don't believe in universalism and not interested in reading such things. On this Eby is wrong and so are all who follow after this teaching.

That's fine.
Do you really understand what Universal Restoration is? Most people reject it based on a caricature of what they think it means. What is your objection precisely?

Can you answer the OP question?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Jesus was sent with one mission to accomplish. Did he succeed, or did he fail?

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Saint Steven · May 23, 2020

Oh, yes, He turned us to destruction, but planted deep in the sub consciousness of every man the SECRET COMMAND to RETURN, which is revealed in that inner desire, yearning, craving, seeking, feeling, compulsion which is never satisfied until man does find himself home in God once more. All the religiousness of men, from the witch doctor in the jungle to the modernist in the pulpit in America, is the manifestation of this FEELING AFTER GOD, IF HAPLY THEY MIGHT FIND HIM. While mankind in general is still lost in the hellish darkness of sin and death, yet there is a firstfruit company whose hearts have been charged by the inward call to return, and with the Shulamite maiden in the Song of Solomon share this blessed experience: "By night on my bed I sought Him whom my soul loves; I sought Him, but I found Him not. I will arise now, and go about the city in the streets, and in the broadways I will seek Him whom my soul loves: I sought Him but I found Him not. The watchmen that go about the city found me: to whom I said, Saw ye Him whom my soul loves? It was but a little that I passed from them, but I FOUND HIM WHOM MY SOUL LOVES AND WOULD NOT LET HIM GO" (S. of S. 3:1-4). As the Spirit has witnessed through the prophet, "And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart" (Jer. 29:13).

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

CaspianSails · May 23, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That's fine.
Do you really understand what Universal Restoration is? Most people reject it based on a caricature of what they think it means. What is your objection precisely?

Can you answer the OP question?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Jesus was sent with one mission to accomplish. Did he succeed, or did he fail?

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Christ succeeded in His sacrificial act and subsequent resurrection, ascension and His present actions as advocate. His sacrificial blood and life, given freely not taken, provides for and makes Him the Savior of the world.

It could be I do not fully understand but after a quick read I would beg to differ with what I read. There are clear and understandable passages of scripture which declare that although all are offered salvation and it is available not all will partake to their detriment and eventual punishment.

Saint Steven · May 23, 2020

CaspianSails said:
Christ succeeded in His sacrificial act and subsequent resurrection, ascension and His present actions as advocate. His sacrificial blood and life, given freely not taken, provides for and makes Him the Savior of the world.

It could be I do not fully understand but after a quick read I would beg to differ with what I read. There are clear and understandable passages of scripture which declare that although all are offered salvation and it is available not all will partake to their detriment and eventual punishment.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
I can empathize with what you are saying. But consider what this scripture tells us. Thanks.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

Der Alte said:
"Kolasis" means the same thing in Matthew 25:46 as it does in 1 John 4:18.

Do you have any evidence in support of that bald opinion?

Der Alte said:
"Kolasis" does not mean "correction" In 1 Jn 4:18 the one who has fear, has "kolasis," and is not corrected, not made perfect.

You were already corrected re that:

Der Alte said:
I neither stated nor implied anything, about anybody, at any time, being/not being corrected.

Here is what you said with both the words "corrected" and "correction" used by you in reference to somebody who has fear:

Der Alte said:
I showed from 1 Jn 4:18 that "kolasis" does NOT mean "correction" since in 1 Jn 4:18 the one who has fear has "kolasis" but is not corrected i.e. "not made perfect."

There you equate "not corrected" with "not made perfect". You argue that since the one who has fear is "not made perfect" he cannot be being corrected. And from that you conclude kolasis cannot mean corrected in 1 John 4:18. The three examples i gave proved that conclusion false, by showing people who were "not made perfect" being corrected, thereby refuting your conclusion. Those three examples were given in the following two paragraphs:

So according to you a teenager who is "not made perfect" cannot be corrected? Does that about sum up the type of logic of the argument you are making here?

Was the sinning man in 1 Cor.5:5 "not made perfect"? Yes. Was he being corrected? Yes. So that proves that one "not made perfect" can be corrected. Likewise re those referred to in 1 Tim.1:19-20. Your argument is refuted.

Then you denied that your argument was refuted:

Der Alte said:
Here is a novel idea you might try, respond to what I actually said. If you don't understand ask me for clarification of what I actually said not some concocted example trying to trip me up.

The example i gave was in the form of a question for that very purpose, i.e. "clarification". Yet you still have failed to clarify. Or address why the example i gave doesn't apply to your remark.

Der Alte said:
Nothing is refuted.

How so? What didn't you understand about my refutation of your illogical remark?

Deny, deny, deny. The child with chocalate cake on her face answered "No Daddy, i haven't been eating chocolate cake".

Der Alte said:
Here is the only relevant question does same word κολασιν/kolasin in 1 John 4:18 mean correction or not?

You already answered that & your answer was wrong:

Der Alte said:
I showed from 1 Jn 4:18 that "kolasis" does NOT mean "correction" since in 1 Jn 4:18 the one who has fear has "kolasis" but is not corrected i.e. "not made perfect."

So according to you a teenager who is "not made perfect" cannot be corrected? Does that about sum up the type of logic of the argument you are making here?

Was the sinning man in 1 Cor.5:5 "not made perfect"? Yes. Was he being corrected? Yes. So that proves that one "not made perfect" can be corrected. Likewise re those referred to in 1 Tim.1:19-20. Your argument is refuted.

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

Der Alte said:
…

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.

Der Alter said:
Good. "Aionios" in Matthew 25:46 means eternal./everlasting.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

Hart adds:

"...how greatly formulations that seem to imply universal salvation outnumber those that appear to threaten an ultimate damnation for the wicked. Still, none of that surprised me; it merely roused me from my complacent assumption that, simply by virtue of having read the text in Greek for many years, I had a natural feel for its tone."

Christ's Rabble | Commonweal Magazine

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

XYZ said:
It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

XYZ said:
It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

XYZ said:
Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

Der Alte said:
Please see my response in the other thread re: Clement of Alexandria. Do you see any redemptive purpose in the following passages?

Genesis 7:21-22
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
Jeremiah 13:11
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
...
Jeremiah 13:14
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Der Alter said: "Do you see any redemptive purpose in the following passages?"

In light of the following, why don't you?

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them".

BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens".

FineLinen · May 24, 2020

CaspianSails said:
Sorry, I don't believe in universalism and not interested in reading such things. On this Eby is wrong and so are all who follow after this teaching.

Dear St. Paul: please be advised Caspian say nada. You are wrong. How could God be so merciful to lost sinners as to concoct such silliness?

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

Saint Steven · May 24, 2020

Mankind is yet groping about in the dense darkness of the carnal mind, knowing not that HE is standing right there in the shadows, were their eyes opened to see. Yet He has appointed a day - Oh glorious day! - when His light shall shine forth and the plan shall be completed as the apostle says, "For God has allowed us to know the secret of His plan, and it is this: He purposed long ago in His sovereign will that all human history should be consummated in Christ, that everything that exists in Heaven or earth should find its perfection and fulfillment in Him. In Christ we have been given an inheritance, since we were destined for this, by the One who works out all His purposes according to the design of His own will" (Eph. 1:9-11, Phillips).

The very laws of physics and mathematics establish with indisputable certainty the absolute inevitability of the creation's return back to God. Psalm nineteen was long a source of amusement to Bible critics. In speaking of the sun, the Psalmist says: "His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat there of' (Ps. 19:6). It was claimed that the writer of this verse, obviously believed in the ancient notion of the sun's revolving about the earth. This charge is most unjust, since we still use words and phrases of the same sort, simply because from our natural viewpoint the sun does rise in the morning, move across the sky, and set in the evening. The whole science of nautical and engineering astronomy is based on the assumption, made purely for convenience, that the earth is the center of a great celestial sphere, moving along the surface of which in ordered paths are the sun, moon, planets and stars. And as far as any practical usage is concerned, this is so. On this assumption, courses can be plotted, positions determined, and scores of other applications made.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Der Alte · May 24, 2020

agapelove said:
Yes! I do! You seem to be trying REAL HARD to portray God as evil. Careful.... that's called blasphemy. I really can't believe that I have to sit here and explain to you God is good, all the time. Isn't that the kind of stuff you learn in church?

Were the millions of people destroyed in the flood redeemed? Were the thousands burned alive at Sodom, Gomorrah etc. redeemed? Were the 2-3000 Israelites killed by snakes at Sinai redeemed? Were all the disobedient Israelites and Judaeans destroyed in Jer 13 redeemed etc. etc etc?

There are 2 theories about who the Nephilim were. (1) Offspring from fallen angels/humans or (2) Offspring from the line of Cain. Both are plausible since the issue at hand was widespread violence, for which Cain was patient zero. (see Lamech in Genesis 4). The Nephilim were probably barbarians. God says their wickedness had become so great that every inclination of their thought was evil. They would have slaughtered each other until there was no man left. A flood would have been more merciful.

You should know by now I do not like to have stuff quoted to me without attribution. What is the source of these two theories?

Jeremiah 33 6 Nevertheless, I will bring health and healing to it; I will heal my people and will let them enjoy abundant peace and security. 7 I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before. 8 I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me. 9 Then this city will bring me renown, joy, praise and honor before all nations on earth that hear of all the good things I do for it; and they will be in awe and will tremble at the abundant prosperity and peace I provide for it.’

This was only those who were living at the time not those who God destroyed in chap.13

10 “This is what the Lord says: ‘You say about this place, “It is a desolate waste, without people or animals.” Yet in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem that are deserted, inhabited by neither people nor animals, there will be heard once more 11 the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, and the voices of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the Lord, saying, “Give thanks to the Lord Almighty, for the Lord is good; his love endures forever.”
For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were before,’ says the Lord. 12 “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘In this place, desolate and without people or animals—in all its towns there will again be pastures for shepherds to rest their flocks. 13 In the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem and in the towns of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hand of the one who counts them,’ says the Lord.
14 “‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah. 15 “‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;he will do what is just and right in the land. 16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUS SAVIOR."

Were any of the millions of people who were destroyed in the verses I quoted brought back to life and redeemed?

agapelove · May 24, 2020

Der Alte said:
Were the millions of people destroyed in the flood redeemed? Were the thousands burned alive at Sodom, Gomorrah etc. redeemed? Were the 2-3000 Israelites killed by snakes at Sinai redeemed? Were all the disobedient Israelites and Judaeans destroyed in Jer 13 redeemed etc. etc etc?

YES! ALL OF CREATION WAS REDEEMED AT THE CROSS. Do you know what thread you are on? Jesus is the Savior of the KOSMOS. This is past, present, and future.

Der Alte said:
You should know by now I do not like to have stuff quoted to me without attribution. What is the source of these two theories?

“SONS OF GOD” and “DAUGHTERS OF MEN”. This is common knowledge. If you do not believe me feel free to do your own research.

Der Alte said:
This was only those who were living at the time not those who God destroyed in chap.13
Were any of the millions of people who were destroyed in the verses I quoted brought back to life and redeemed?

YES! ALL have been redeemed/justified by the cross and ALL the dead will be brought back to life at Jesus’ second coming.

Der Alte · May 24, 2020

agapelove said:
YES! ALL OF CREATION WAS REDEEMED AT THE CROSS. Do you know what thread you are on? Jesus is the Savior of the KOSMOS. This is past, present, and future.
“SONS OF GOD” and “DAUGHTERS OF MEN”. This is common knowledge. If you do not believe me feel free to do your own research.
YES! ALL have been redeemed/justified by the cross and ALL the dead will be brought back to life at Jesus’ second coming.

That is a nice dream unfortunately no verse unequivocally states this.
The "sons of god" vss. 2,4 were merely men see vs. 4 "the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown."

Genesis 6:2-4
2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose.
3 And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'
4 The Nephilim [fallen ones] were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

agapelove · May 24, 2020

Der Alte said:
That is a nice dream unfortunately no verse unequivocally states this.

Jesus is the savior of the κόσμου, tα παντα. That is the truth not just a "nice dream".

Der Alte said:
The "sons of god" vss. 2,4 were merely men see vs. 4 "the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

Der Alte said:
Genesis 6:2-4
2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose.
3 And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'
4 The Nephilim [fallen ones] were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

Not sure what the relevancy of this is. My belief, which I already stated previously, is that the "sons of God" were from the line of Seth and the "daughters of men" were from the line of Cain, and thus violence became a disease that spread to all mankind.

Der Alte · May 24, 2020

ClementofA said:
...

ClementofA said:
The rest of your post was already addressed in this thread.
You left out part of BDAG's entry on aionion, including this portion.
"1. pert. to a long period of time,

ClementofA said:
long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10)."

False. I never leave out anything when I quote BDAG in full.

Here's the Lidell Scott lexicon entry:
"Liddell, Scott Jones Lexicon of Classical GreekG166
• αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Heb_9:12 : —
1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot. 3.7.3), μέθη Pl. R. 363d; ἀνώλεθρον.. ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον Id. Lg. 904a, cf. Epicur. Sent. 28; αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις Id. Nat. 131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld. Herc. 1251.18, D. 1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ Rom_16:26, Ti.Locr. 96c; οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον.. ἀλλ' αἰωνίη Aret. CA 1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Gen_9:16, Ex. 27.21, To. 1.6; ζωή Mat_25:46, Porph. Abst. 4.20; κόλασις Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg. p.278J.; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. 2Ti_1:9 : opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2Co_4:18.
2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, γυμνασίαρχος CPHerm. 62.
3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg. Macr. 4.
4. Adv. -ίως eternally νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν Procl. Inst. 172, cf. Simp. in Epict. p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch. E. Alc. 338.
5. αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.- Dsc. 4.88."

As I said which you seem to have ignored, this is classical Greek there were many changes including the meaning of words between Classical and Koine Greek.. Evidently you ignored that, it doesn't fit your agenda. But even this classical Greek lexicon shows that "eternally" and "perpetually" were definitions of "aionios."

Here's Moulton & Milligan's summary from the same page:
"In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance, as in Catullus’ poignant lines—
...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."

Classical Greek.

No scholar in the past 10,000 years agrees with your aion/ios/olam always mean "eternal" except when used in hyperbole theory.

The EOB version appears to agree with me.
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).

= = = = = = = = = =

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = = = = =
KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aioniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In the EOB Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, uses αιωνιου/aioniou],” in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
There is absolutely nothing you can say, no credible evidence you can provide which contradicts this. You can copy/paste the opinions of a dozen UR "scholars" and the only thing they can do is quote examples where "aionios" refers to something which is not eternal

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Irrelevant. Kosmos which means world is used 14 times, in the NT, to refer to something which is not the entire planet. This shows that just because a word is used for something else it does not change the inherent meaning of the word.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

No matter how many times you say this it is meaningless without credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Evidence which you do not and never will have.

Saint Steven · May 24, 2020

But the words of the Psalmist have a deeper, more scientific meaning than that. It is now concluded by the leading astronomers that the sun, with the entire solar system, actually does move through space at the tremendous speed of 600,000 miles per hour in such a gigantic orbit that it requires over two million centuries to complete it, but complete it it shall, returning again and again, as the ages roll onward, to the point of its beginning. Furthermore, it is believed that our galaxy is also moving with respect to other galaxies. The sun's circuit IS from one end of the heavens to the other! Who can accuse the Holy Spirit of ignorance of modern astronomy?

The entire universe is an infinite sphere and each galaxie, solar system, star and planet within it moves continuously and harmoniously in circular motion; thus, all worlds and suns have circles for their pathway. This principle has been referred to by scientists as the "law of circularity." Science is beginning to tell us that in the highest development of physics and mathematics the old theory of straight lines of infinite length has to be changed and modified to satisfy all the data of electro-dynamics, light, and some of the new electrical phenomena. There is no such thing in the universe as an absolutely straight line of infinite length. All straight lines will be found to be portions of immense circles. This law of circularity runs through all nature. If you were to leave planet earth traveling steadily in one direction, the day would surely come, be it in some distant age millions or billions of years hence, when you would arrive back at the precise point of departure, having completed the circuit - home again! Someone has said (a scientist) that if we were to build a telescope that could see into infinity, we would one day be looking at the back of our heads!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

Der Alte said:
False. I never leave out anything when I quote BDAG in full.

True because you didn't quote BDAG in full.

Do you need prescription eyewear, perhaps?

Der Alte said:
As I said which you seem to have ignored, this is classical Greek there were many changes including the meaning of words between Classical and Koine Greek..

The NT & OT references in Lidell were not classical Greek.

Der Alte said:
Classical Greek.

No, references in Milligan to Scripture & 200 AD etc are not classical Greek:

Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Der Alte said:
The EOB version appears to agree with me.

Disagrees with you re Rev.20:10 & all the many similar references.

Der Alte said:
...

Der Alte said:
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.

XYZ said:
It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

XYZ said:
It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

XYZ said:
Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

KOLASIS:
Are You of Israel?

Saint Steven · May 25, 2020

This great law of circularity by which all things in God's creation are seen to RETURN to the place of their BEGINNING, in its spiritual significance, is expressed in Rom. 11:36: "For FROM HIM and THROUGH HIM and TO HIM are all things - for all things originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to CONSUMMATE AND TO END IN HIM. To Him be glory forever! Amen" (Amplified). All manifestations of nature discernible to the senses confirm this law of circularity. "The sun also arises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to its place where he arose. The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again" (Eccl. 1:5-7).

Today, scientists tell us that there is just so much water in the earth. There has always been that amount and there always will be. We should understand that neither water, nor anything else, can be destroyed. Its form can be changed, but it eventually will return to its original form. The writer of Ecclesiastes tells us that water is taken from the oceans in the form of moisture by the sun. Then the winds in their circuits carry that moisture as clouds over the land. There through certain actions of cold and heat, according to the laws of God, that moisture falls to the earth in the form of rain or snow or hail. Creeks and rivers are formed that carry this water back into the oceans, thus completing the circuit or cycle. Water may be frozen, but under the right condition it will return to water. It may be heated and converted into steam, but the steam will eventually condense, becoming water again. Water sinking into the ground is either evaporated, or taken up by plants and evaporated, or perhaps finds its way to underground streams. In any event it eventually finds its way back to the sea, and the circuit continues on, unseen, unheard, almost unknown, but it is by the law of God.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

FineLinen · May 25, 2020

CaspianSails said:
It could be I do not fully understand but after a quick read I would beg to differ with what I read. There are clear and understandable passages of scripture which declare that although all are offered salvation and it is available not all will partake to their detriment and eventual punishment.

Nonsense ! !

God IS salvation. He is NOT potential salvation or a potential Saviour, He IS!

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

"Will have" = thelo

"He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,"

Potentate = Sovereign authority = exousia =

Ability & strength to do as He pleases.

Our God is not the ultimate gambler. He Is the One who does as He pleases with the ability & strength to do it.

He is not the God of good wishes.

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

CaspianSails · May 26, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
I can empathize with what you are saying. But consider what this scripture tells us. Thanks.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

This passage is talking about the rejection of Christ by the elect, or the nation of Israel. This verse in particular is a reference to their disobedience and this period of time when God has grafted in the gentiles to be partakers of His great mercy and grace through the finished work of Christ. In a coming period God will restore the Israelite's according to this passage and others. This is not a reference of universal forgiveness for the entirety of mankind. Gentiles are warned in this passage to not become high minded of the fact God as grafted us in to His kingdom as with the elect, or the Jewish people if we turn from His course we too can become cut off.

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