THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Even in your posted version it states "because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved," they did not receibve the truth for their being saved. Does not state what you want it so say. Sure---as long as they are alive there is a chance they will change their minds and accept truth. Nothing about anyone changing their minds after death. None of your verses prove that anjyone can change their mind after death.

You say: "Sure---as long as they are alive there is a chance they will change their minds and accept truth."

Nothing in the Bible ever says that. Those are your words. Not thus says the Lord of the Holy Scriptures. Sorry, i cannot accept your unsupported opinion.

mmksparbud said:
Nothing about anyone changing their minds after death.

Nothing there denies it. It was your "proof text" vs universalism. Not my proof text for "changing their minds after death". One can't expect everything to be explained in one or two verses, or even one chapter.

mmksparbud said:
None of your verses prove that anjyone can change their mind after death.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, even a wrong one ;

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).

BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently those there are, for there own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

mmksparbud · May 24, 2020

ClementofA said:
You say: "Sure---as long as they are alive there is a chance they will change their minds and accept truth."

Nothing in the Bible ever says that. Those are your words. Not thus says the Lord of the Holy Scriptures. Sorry, i cannot accept your unsupported opinion.

That's OK---I do not accept any of your unsupported opinions either!

ClementofA said:
Nothing there denies it. It was your "proof text" vs universalism. Not my proof text for "changing their minds after death". One can't expect everything to be explained in one or two verses, or even one chapter.

Right--- I take the whole bible---not just parts I like and interpret the way I want. And nothing in any of the bible supports your opinions. You want them to, but they do not. Not even any of the parables. The 10 virgi9ns---those that came later---could not get in, nothing about them being let in later either. The tenants in Matt. 21 that killed the messengers and finally even the son---
Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luk 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others.

The sanctuary service itself which is the plan of salvation.

Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
The Jewish translation reads:
Lev_16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats: one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for Azazel.

After the High Priest has placed the sins of Israel on the Lords goat, it is killed. However, the sins that were on the slain goat are transferred by the High Priest unto the scapegoat. That is Satan. Many6 defi9ne the scapegoat as Jesus also---that is not correct. It takes blood to forgive sins and the lived goat is not killed but let out into the wilderness to die. In fact, when once the goat did not die, they went out after it and throw it over a cliff. Jesus died once-=--not twice. The live goat does not pay for the sins, he is to blame for those sins which is Satan and he dies.
Everything in the bible points to no one being let into the kingdom after dying a sinner.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion---even a wrong one. We shall both find out pretty soon. God will do what He says He will do. Not what man thinks He should do. God bless you,too.

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

mmksparbud said:
That's OK---I do not accept any of your unsupported opinions either!

Very good. You shouldn't.

mmksparbud said:
Right--- I take the whole bible---not just parts I like and interpret the way I want.

Likewise. That's why i address all your alleged "proof texts" for annihilationism & show how i think they harmonize the Scriptures with universalism.

mmksparbud said:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Everyone has sinned, so every fallen human being receives the wages of sin, which is death. Does that, then, mean by "death" that everyone gets endless annihilation or tortured for eons that never end? Obviously not.

Scripture knows nothing of any endless death, but says that death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15: 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Beyond all that, your translation is misleading. A number of more literal honest versions read otherwise, such as, for example:

Rom_6:23 “For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.” (CLV)

Rom 6 23 doesn't address the question of how many human beings will get the gift of "life eonian". OTOH Scripture reveals that everyone will obtain "life" & be "constituted just":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation.

Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath imprisoned them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

36 For out of him, and through him, and into him, is all: to whom be glory into the eons. Amen.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

mmksparbud said:
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

That's quite a lame attempt to support your theology. That says the sinning soul shall die. Not die eternally. Not be endlessly nonexistent.

The verse may simply be referring to this mortal life in harmony with what many other OT passages say:

Proverbs 3:1,2: "My son, forget not my law; but let your heart keep my commands, for length of days and long life, and peace, shall they add to you."

Ezek. 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done shall he die.

Proverbs 4:10: "My son, receive My sayings; and the years of your life shall be many."
Proverbs 10:27: "The fear of the LORD prolongs days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened."
1Kings 3:14: "If you walk in My ways, and keep My commandments ... then I will lengthen your days.
Exodus 20:12: “Honour your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
Deuteronomy 5:16: “Honour your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
Psalm 34:12,13: “Who is the man who desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking deceit.”
Psalm 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
Eph.6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Exodus 23:25,26 You shall serve the Lord your God, and He will BLESS your bread and water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you, and the (full) number of your days I will fulfil."

mmksparbud · May 24, 2020

ClementofA said:
Why do you keep posting the same comments & verses that have already been addressed and ignore the replies to your posts. Do you think you can win a debate that way?

Where does it say they stay in the LOF and are NEVER saved? Nowhere.

Do you also find it funny that for all your long worded posts---still not one scripture that says anyone DOES NOT come out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jeus.

And why should Love Almighty be required to use your exact words revealing salvation to those in the LOF when He has already done so in many different ways. It's a ridiculous requirement, as if not being able to provide those exact words somehow defeats universalism. Nonsense. And in the above paragraph i turned it around on you, using your own words against your own argument. Lol, eh?

Second death is never called endless annihilation. The first death was not endless annihilation either.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Death will be abolished & God "all in all", even all who were in Adam (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Already addressed to you in posts you have never answered or refuted.

False. That is a misrepresentation. I never said that. I said a spirit being like Satan cannot become physical ashes, so Ezek. 28:18-19 does not refer to Satan. You have never addresed & refuted this point & you never will be able to.

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol & then recover.

Rom.6:23 here:

Romans 6:23 eternal life vs death

Compare:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

I post what I do because you keep posting the same things over and over and over!! You are a broken record. Nowhere does the bible say they do come out of the lake---we both have said the same thing over and over--I say it's time to brush the dust of my feet---again!! Your posts are twice as long as mine and say absolutely nothing to support your believes!! Nowhere does anything say that a spirit can not become ashes---Satan is a created being--period. Your speculations are nothing more than that and have been repeated 100 times with nothing new and your twisting of the scriptures mean nothing! YES, A DRUNKARD CAN RECOVER---AS LONG AS HE IS ALIVE---HE CAN'T RECOVER ONCE HE IS DEAD!
AS I SAID--YOU ARE FREE TO BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT---
God will do as He says He will do and not what you or anyone else thinks He should do. If there is anything you have not repeated 100's of times already---I think we are done!

a-lily-of-peace · May 24, 2020

FineLinen said:
Lily: The Royal Road is thru apollumi. Aionios life is NOT a time word, but a quality of life expressed by the Apostle John in 9 powerful words.

This IS life aionios that we may know You...

And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for the redeemed: the wayfaring men, yea fools, shall not err therein. No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast go up thereon; they shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: and the ransomed of Jehovah shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads: they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

(Isaiah 35:8-10, ASV)

Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.

(Luke 13:24-28, ASV)

I don’t know if that word “strive” is imperative in the Greek but in English it’s a command and it really seems like you’re saying “but no, surely, there must be another way!”

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

mmksparbud said:
I say it's time to brush the dust of my feet---again!!

If you are just going to keep repeating yourself while ignoring my replies, then why not.

mmksparbud said:
Nowhere does anything say that a spirit can not become ashes---Satan is a created being--period.

We know Satan is a spirit being, so non physical. Ashes OTOH are physical. So do the math: 2 + 2 =4. Satan can't become ashes. Ezek.28:18-19 isn't about Satan.

mmksparbud said:
Your speculations are nothing more than that and have been repeated 100 times

Little of it having been responded to. You don't win a debate by failing to answer the other person's points or running away.

mmksparbud said:
YES, A DRUNKARD CAN RECOVER---AS LONG AS HE IS ALIVE---HE CAN'T RECOVER ONCE HE IS DEAD!

Then you agree a drunkard who is destroyed can be undestroyed & recover? Good, then we can agree that the word "destroyed" in the Bible is of no help to your theology.

mmksparbud said:
If there is anything you have not repeated 100's of times already---I think we are done!

I'll be done when i'm finished responding to your posts i have yet to address.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Bon Voyage A Dieu!

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.

(Luke 13:24-28, ASV)

I don’t know if that word “strive” is imperative in the Greek but in English it’s a command and it really seems like you’re saying “but no, surely, there must be another way!”

XYZ said:
Luke 13:24 explains the true meaning when Christ has shut up the door he has shut up your confusion. Luke 13:25

Does that say the door is shut forever? Compare:

Rev.21:25a Its gates will never be closed...

https://www.amazon.ca/Her-Gates-Will-Never-Shut/dp/1606088823

Luke 13:23-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

That refers to the time of Christ's return & what happens then. It says nothing about final destiny or anyone being pointlessly, sadistically tortured or annihilated endlessly.

"Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(23) Are there few that be saved?--More accurately, that are being saved, or, that are in the way of salvation. The Greek participle is present, not perfect, and this sense should
be borne in mind..."

Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason, didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He means all:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

mmksparbud · May 24, 2020

ClementofA said:
We know Satan is a spirit being, so non physical. Ashes OTOH are physical. So do the math: 2 + 2 =4. Satan can't become ashes. Ezek.28:18-19 isn't about Satan.

Satan is a created being as are all the angels, what God creates He can destroy--as one day yuou will see for yourself.

ClementofA said:
Little of it having been responded to. You don't win a debate by failing to answer the other person's points or running away.

I hate repeating myself, I've answered you several times on each point, you don't like the answers and skip them just to ask the same question over and over.

ClementofA said:
Then you agree a drunkard who is destroyed can be undestroyed & recover? Good, then we can agree that the word "destroyed" in the Bible is of no help to your theology.

Again you skipped over what I said---I said:

mmksparbud said:
YES, A DRUNKARD CAN RECOVER---AS LONG AS HE IS ALIVE---HE CAN'T RECOVER ONCE HE IS DEAD!
AS I SAID--YOU ARE FREE TO BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT---

What part of he can't recover once he is dead did you not comprehend?

ClementofA said:
I'll be done when i'm finished responding to your posts i have yet to address.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Likewise to you! Except for the responding part---quite frankly, I'm tired of you just repeating everything, and reading the same posts from you all the time. This is not productive for me--my hands have problems and I can't direct my fingers very well and I see no reason to keep answering you. As in the drunkard post---you only saw what you wanted to see---not the whole post. So---I don't think so.

FineLinen · May 24, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for the redeemed: the wayfaring men, yea fools, shall not err therein. No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast go up thereon; they shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: and the ransomed of Jehovah shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads: they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

(Isaiah 35:8-10, ASV)

Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.

(Luke 13:24-28, ASV)

I don’t know if that word “strive” is imperative in the Greek but in English it’s a command and it really seems like you’re saying “but no, surely, there must be another way!”

Lily: I know of only one way into the Christ & ultimately Home to our Abba, that is the Royal Road of His mighty dealings in union with Him. He IS the Way, the ONLY way!

This is not a one time event, but a process of death leading into life more abundant in, by, for Him.

agonizomai = to strive =

To contend (agonize) and means to strive & suffer reproach.

a-lily-of-peace · May 24, 2020

ClementofA said:
It looks like in John 5:28-29 there are only two groups & two resurrections. So those judged at Rev.20:11-15 would be in the "resurrection of condemnation" who "have done evil" (John 5:29)? They would be cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture indicates Old Testament saints have a "city" prepared by God for them:

Heb.11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

It seems they are to inherit the New Jerusalem, not be living outside of it.

What is outside the city are the lost in the lake of fire:

Rev.22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

I'm not sure i understand. Would you care to rephrase or elaborate further?

Rephrased, if my understanding of what you are saying is correct:

1. this life *we are here
2. resurrection of the martyrs and saints to rule 1000 years
3. judgement of all, eternal life and punishment / age of life and punishment happy to leave this undisputed for now to continue to:
4. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. (1 Corinthians 15:24-26, ASV)

So from my perspective, if I follow Christ in 1, and I’m blessed enough to be included in 2, then the age/eternity of 3 is good, and it naturally flows that since 1,2,3 is all good then 4 will also be good.

The alternative you propose is that if 1 and 2 and 3 are all bad, the person will still be conscious, individual, and aware of goodness in 4.

I’ll admit that I’m actually trying to take steps to guard from my own biases and delusions because I am aware that when I try to conceptualise 4, I might easily be influenced by previous knowledge of mysticism etc so this is me “putting a fence around the torah” so to speak and say that it is truly better to trust God for what has been revealed in 1,2,3 and let 4 happen as he wills rather than to try to look past 1,2,3 into the potentialities of 4 in a way that might actually be destructive to the clear written promises of 1, 2, and 3.

In response to Hebrews 11 you might be right about the Old Testament saints not needing healing (though they would still have to wash their robes as per John 3:5) but I still feel that it’s more likely that those judged righteous of the nations would need healing to be made whole.

And again, if the mission is actually to heal the wicked, then His will be done and I’m just as happy with that.

a-lily-of-peace · May 24, 2020

FineLinen said:
Lily: I know of only one way into the Christ & ultimately Home to our Abba, that is the Royal Road of His mighty dealings in union with Him. He IS the Way, the ONLY way!

This is not a one time event, but a process of death leading into life more abundant in, by, for Him.

agonizomai = to strive =

To contend (agonize) and means to strive & suffer reproach.

I was actually asking about the tense conjugation, in Greek if that word is imperative?

Like the difference between saying “to go here” as a concept vs “Go here!” as a command.

a-lily-of-peace · May 24, 2020

also I have to make a thing for my friend and reorganise a room so I know I’m not replying to everything but I will hopefully be able to say things in parts

shalom

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

mmksparbud said:
I hate repeating myself, I've answered you several times on each point,

How can that be when one of my posts you said you didn't even read. Therefore you didn't respond to it either! And several other posts have not been addressed.

mmksparbud said:
Again you skipped over what I said---I said:

What part of he can't recover once he is dead did you not comprehend?

Irrelevant. The example i gave was a person who had destroyed himself via alcohol recovering from the destruction it had caused in his life. He's not dead! Only the destruction is dead. Just as it will be for those in the LOF, BTW.

mmksparbud said:
This is not productive for me--my hands have problems and I can't direct my fingers very well and I see no reason to keep answering you.

Sorry to hear that. May the Lord heal you.

Maybe rest up & return when you feel better. Or if you can find someone to type for you.

BTW, I use ice packs on my hands all day long every day while online. It helps.

agapelove · May 24, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Do you hear yourself? I said quite clearly that I said nothing about your own personal relationship to God---and you turn around and say that I said you have no faith!! What I see is that a few people on here have a problem understanding English! This is what you responded to:

"I never said a thing about your relationship with God. I am stating what I believe uni's theory about everyone being saved no matter what they've done leads to. No I am not one, never will be one. The bible does not support this belief as far as I'm concerned. You are free to believe whatever you want---so am I. This is a debating forum so I am debating against this."

How in the world can you turn around and accuse me of saying that you personally have no relationship with God?

I'm very glad you do---I am stating in general terms and you keep insisting on making this a personal statement about your own relationship with God!!

You still do not get it. Your "general terms" and assumptions about universalism are assumptions about me. So put the straw man away because you are only exposing how little you know about UR.

mmksparbud said:
God is a consuming fire---that is stated in several verses. However---and I will post this once again--

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

God is not a consuming, devouring fire to the saved---find me a verse where His fire came down on any sinner that it did not consume and destroy. As Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego-- His fire does not consume the righteous, only sinners. The lake of fire is where sinners go--it is His fire, it destroys sin. Unrepentant sinners can not stand in the presence of a Holy God and live.

God is a consuming, devouring fire ALL THE TIME, TO EVERYONE. Is He two-faced? He is the SAME yesterday, today, and tomorrow. 1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

So that the consuming fire may be all in all.
Sounds like the righteous are included here.

God is the fire and Jesus is the one who is coming to baptize us with FIRE. Heaven and Hell are TWO experiences of the SAME fire. We can either submit to the fire and allow it to transform us, or refuse the fire and remain in the coldness of sin. His Love will either be our joy or our torment.

Exodus 3:2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.

mmksparbud said:
Satan was defeated at the cross---he is still leading people to sin:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

and He will continue until he leads a total revolt with all the wicked who try to take God's city by force. So none of those wicked raised at the 2nd resurrection are in any way repentant---when that fire comes down, it is a consuming devouring fire and will destroy sin---which means sinners including Satan. Those verses have been posted many, many times and all anyone can do is totally ignore them.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It looks like you are the one ignoring scripture.

vs.10: Shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So are they destroyed or not?

vs.12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
I thought they were destroyed?

mmksparbud said:
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Yep. Love loves unto purity. The consuming fire is out to destroy all that is not pure in us until there is no more wickedness. "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Check out what this process is like as explained by the Whole Grains Council!)

mmksparbud said:
And don't bother giving that old thing about this is only referring to the King of Tyre---it is not. Lucifer was a covering cherub before he fell and was caste from heaven. Gabriel is the one now that stands in the presence of God in his stead. Satan will not be saved, he and those who follow him will be ashes and the New Jerusalem will settle down on a remade earth over all those ashes. This is what God has said and that is what He will do.

Hath God said?

The New Heavens and New Earth are established at the beginning of Rev 21 the one who is seated on the throne says “I am making everything new!” What still needs to be made new in the New Heavens and New Earth? We see the wicked reappear in verses 6, 8, 27, and again in Rev 21:15 where they are outside (ἔξω/exō) the city. Aren't they suppose to be ashes right now???

mmksparbud said:
Yes, it matters! But not to those who think God is going to even save Satan and anyone who is an unrepentant sinner and they will just have to go through a bath in the lake of fire! It is the blood of Jesus that saves, not the lake of fire. No one comes out of that lake of fire---they are consumed, devoured.

You keep saying Satan will be saved but that is not really a common belief in universalism. Some do believe that for the purpose of consistency but personally my faith is not there yet. The defeat of Satan, along with death and sin, was accomplished on the cross. If there remains unrepentant sinners how is that a victory for Christ?

mmksparbud said:
I did and I don't see where it is of any value to anyone outside of a Greek tragedy. You guys come up with your own definitions so you woill have to tell me what it is you think it means and supply the verses related to it.

Really? You cannot see how hamartia, the word we translated into SIN, is of no value to anyone outside a Greek tragedy?

Aristotle (Poet. 1453a) describes it like this: The hero must not deserve his misfortune, but he must cause it by making a fatal mistake, an error of judgement, which may well involve some imperfection of character but not such as to make us regard him as “morally responsible” for the disasters although they are nevertheless the consequences of the flaw in him, and his wrong decision at a crisis is the inevitable outcome. In order for it to qualify as 'hamartia' it must evoke a sense pity, sentimentality, tragedy, and fear from the audience.

Given this definition which you could not find yourself... I ask you again... how do you think God looks upon sin and how does God look upon sinners?

mmksparbud said:
I would have to throw out half the bible to do so!

You should just throw out the entire Bible if you cannot see how it is the world's greatest love story.

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

mmksparbud said:
I am a believer in Jesus and wish to spend eternity with Him, I have no fear of hell whatsoever!

No fear of hell? Do you fear endless annihilation? Did not Jesus command you to fear (Mt.10:28)?

mmksparbud said:
I have answered about babies till I'm blue in the face---

Nah, you evaded the issue of your duplicity, refusing to even read my post:

mmksparbud said:
Yes. Any one that is raised at the first resurrection are raised unto life eternal with Jesus.

Then that brings backs my earlier remarks on this topic:

You said there were only 8 saved in reference to Noah's time. Now you're saying all the babies who died in the flood were also saved. Any others? Children, teens, mentally challenged, those who never heard the gospel?

So there was salvation not only by faith & getting in the ark. There was also salvation without faith by drowning. Are there any other methods of salvation you'ld like to share?

But then you responded that the babies who drowned will also have faith. Who is going to - force - this faith & salvation on them w/o giving them a free choice? Yet you keep objecting to the idea of those in the lake of fire being forced to be saved. Evidently your view of Love Omnipotent is that it's okay to force Himself on others sometimes but not at other times. Yet you claimed that love does not force. But now you have the Saviour of all forcing faith on certain people, namely babies, & probably children & the mentally challenged, too, eh? What about those who never heard the gospel?

So you have two methods leading to salvation in this life: (1) faith & (2) death to certain groups of peope. Any others you'ld like to share?

mmksparbud said:
It is incomprehensible to me why you all can not understand that God does not hold the mentaly handicapped in condemnation.

I think we understand it just fine. I don't know why you ever imagined otherwise.

mmksparbud said:
How in the world is a baby going to choose to follow Jesus?

The same way all babies do. They grow up.

mmksparbud said:
It is a ridiculous idea, just as dumb as an everlasting burning hell and that Satan, Hitler and every evil person will be saved by a bath in the lake of fire!!

How do you know Hitler will go to the lake of fire?

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

mmksparbud said:
You believe all will be saved---no matter how evil they were including Satan.

"With God [Love Omnipotent] all is possible", Jesus said.

"But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Rom.5:20a).

Lk.18:9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

mmksparbud said:
No matter how you want to word that, no matter what you want to say it isn't--bottom line---it does not matter what you do, or how you live your life on this earth for you will be saved.

Tell that to those being tormented in the lake of fire who are not saved.

What's the problem, anyway? You couldn't be happy enjoying the Saviour of all's endless love, joy & peace if Hitler gets it too?

mmksparbud said:
This absolutely takes no faith in Jesus to cleanse you of your sins---the fire will do it.

Here we go again, for the upteenth time.

Misrepresentation alert!

ClementofA · May 24, 2020

mmksparbud said:
I am stating what I believe uni's theory about everyone being saved no matter what they've done leads to. No I am not one, never will be one. The bible does not support this belief as far as I'm concerned. You are free to believe whatever you want---so am I. This is a debating forum so I am debating against this. See---you can not tell me that believing that even Satan is saved, is going to lead to a greater faith in the power of Jesus to save us from sin for it is the power of the lake of fire that is doing this. Believing a lie never leads to anything good. No one needs to live their life on earth closer to Jesus and His will in our lives. It doesn't matter what you do. You can deny that till the cows come home---Living a life of sin does not matter for everyone will be saved.

So your view is that being tormented in Hades and or in the lake of fire "into the eons of the eons" is not sufficient motivation to keep you from sinning? And the only reason you follow Jesus is for "fire insurance" for yourself , i.e. fear of annihilation in the lake of fire. IOW it's all about you looking out for number 1, eh? Does that about sum it up?

mmksparbud · May 24, 2020

ClementofA said:
No fear of hell? Do you fear endless annihilation? Did not Jesus command you to fear (Mt.10:28)

Yes, as usual you stopped to soon.

Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

ClementofA said:
Then that brings backs my earlier remarks on this topic:

You said there were only 8 saved in reference to Noah's time. Now you're saying all the babies who died in the flood were also saved. Any others? Children, teens, mentally challenged, those who never heard the gospel?

So there was salvation not only by faith & getting in the ark. There was also salvation without faith by drowning. Are there any other methods of salvation you'ld like to share?

But then you responded that the babies who drowned will also have faith. Who is going to - force - this faith & salvation on them w/o giving them a free choice? Yet you keep objecting to the idea of those in the lake of fire being forced to be saved. Evidently your view of Love Omnipotent is that it's okay to force Himself on others sometimes but not at other times. Yet you claimed that love does not force. But now you have the Saviour of all forcing faith on certain people, namely babies, & probably children & the mentally challenged, too, eh? What about those who never heard the gospel?

So you have two methods leading to salvation in this life: (1) faith & (2) death to certain groups of peope. Any others you'ld like to share?

ClementofA said:
I think we understand it just fine. I don't know why you ever imagined otherwise.

Babies again--you really have a problem with them. What they ever do to you? I answered--God does not hold the mentaly handicapped under condemnation. They can not choose. Obviously you can not read nor can you comprehend what this says--I will not respond any more to that stupid question, it has been answered repeatedly! Sounds like a personal problem to me.

ClementofA said:
The same way all babies do. They grow up.

When they grow up then they are no longer babies and, unless mentaly handicapped, can then decide and your question is still stupid, isn't it? Not to mention that y0u totally twisted what I said and you come up with this:

"But then you responded that the babies who drowned will also have faith."

That is called lying for I said no such thing. Babies can't have faith. You are really irritating me to the point that I am considering putting you on ignore for you are not being honest.

mmksparbud · May 24, 2020

ClementofA said:
Irrelevant. The example i gave was a person who had destroyed himself via alcohol recovering from the destruction it had caused in his life. He's not dead! Only the destruction is dead. Just as it will be for those in the LOF, BTW.

Exactly--if he were dead---He'd would not have been able to recover.

ClementofA said:
Tell that to those being tormented in the lake of fire who are not saved.

What's the problem, anyway? You couldn't be happy enjoying the Saviour of all's endless love, joy & peace if Hitler gets it too?

They pay for their sins and are no more. If you have a problem with that, you will have to talk to God about it and tell Him how wrong He is. I have no problem with accepting God's decision---you do. I have no problems wit6h whomsoever He wants in heaven. God alone knows the heart and if Hitler repented before he died, then it is God's will for him to be saved. The problem is y0ours insisting that Hitler will be saved.

ClementofA said:
Here we go again, for the upteenth time.

Misrepresentation alert!

Baloney---it takes no faith in Jesus to cleanse you of your sins on this earth when you know that none of you sins will loose you your salvation. You can deny this till doomsday--it is the way it is.

ClementofA said:
So your view is that being tormented in Hades and or in the lake of fire "into the eons of the eons" is not sufficient motivation to keep you from sinning? And the only reason you follow Jesus is for "fire insurance" for yourself , i.e. fear of annihilation in the lake of fire. IOW it's all about you looking out for number 1, eh? Does that about sum it up?

No, it is not. I believe what Jesus said---He will forgive my sins and not remember them. His blood forgives, not His fire. Yo0u are so full of this false doctrine that you can not see the trees for the forest. Looking out for #1 is exactly what will land you in the lake of fire. Obviously you have no understanding of how Jesus and His salvation works. It is love for Him that keeps us from sinning, not fear of any LOF, something you all can not comprehend for the fire will blot out all your sins and then God will bring you into His kingdom so you do not have to love Him.. Don't put your own ideas unto our motives.

FineLinen · May 24, 2020

FineLinen said:
THE WISDOM OF GOD

God is wise; and it cannot be a dictate of wisdom to create beings, and then make their existence a curse by entailing endless suffering to it.

God foresaw all the consequences of our creation when he made us. He knew fully what the result would be to each individual.

Is it possible, that infinite goodness could breathe life into unoffending dust, when it was clearly foreseen that endless evil would ensue?

It was not possible. God must have created only to bless. “Love worketh no ill.”

The wisdom of God is “full of mercy,” and “without partiality.” (James 3:17).

“Full of mercy,” says Adam Clarke, i.e. “ready to pass by a transgression, and to grant forgiveness to those who offend; and performing every possible act of kindness..”

Surely, a God of infinite power and skill, who “performs every possible act of kindness,” will save his fallen creatures from their sins. “Without partiality,” i.e. without making a difference.

God is no respecter of persons. He is kind to all men, and he will perform every “possible act of kindness” to all men.

-Thomas Whittemore-

THE PLEASURE OF GOD

The pleasure of God is in favor of the salvation of all men; and therefore, neither death, sin, nor pain, can be the ultimate object of God in reference to man.

“As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” (Ezek. 33:11).

Death and sin and pain may exist for a time; but if God has no pleasure in them of themselves, they are not the end at which he aims, but the means by which he accomplishes that end. The end in which God rests as his pleasure, design, or purpose, must be essentially benevolent, because he is essentially a benevolent God.

Neither death, nor sin, nor pain can be his ultimate plan or pleasure; they are the means by which his holy and righteous designs are carried into effect.

God created all men expressly for his pleasure, and, therefore, not for ultimate death.

“Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Rev. 4:11)

Adam Clarke has a fine remark on this passage. He says, “He made all things for his pleasure; and through the same motive he preserves. Hence, it is most evident, that he hateth nothing that he has made; and could have made no intelligent creature with the design to make it eternally miserable.

It is strange, that a contrary supposition has ever entered into the heart of man; and it is high time that the benevolent nature of the Supreme God, should be fully vindicated from aspersions of this kind.”

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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