What is the Mark of the Beast?

Berean Tim

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The market was the lifeline of ancient cities, being unable to participate in the mundane activities of life because one refused to participate in the Roman state cult would be quite serious.

Under the reign of Decius one literally had to have a certificate that one worshiped the gods, a libellus, in order to participate in Roman daily life. A libellus literally marked you as loyal, and not having one marked you as not loyal. While not the worst of the Roman persecutions, the Decian persecution was significant, and was the precursor to the worst of them, the Diocletian persecution.

That literally happened. This is actual history.

-CryptoLutheran
Perhaps the False Prophet copies that.
 
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Berean Tim

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Mark of the beast was to do with Nero.

Revelation is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the Bible. ;)
Who was the False Prophet ?
They're both captured alive and thrown in the lake of fire. Nero wasn't defeated in a battle, he committed suicide. Nero never went to Judea
If the beast is so well known , why not the false prophet ?
 
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Lost4words

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Who was the False Prophet ?
They're both captured alive and thrown in the lake of fire. Nero wasn't defeated in a battle, he committed suicide. Nero never went to Judea
If the beast is so well known , why not the false prophet ?

Interpretation
 
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Berean Tim

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“must soon take place” (Rev 1:1; 22:6). “the time is near” (Rev 1:3; 22:10)

All happened within first century
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Hasn't happen yet !
Who is/was the false prophet ?
 
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Lost4words

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29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Hasn't happen yet !
Who is/was the false prophet ?

Interpretation.

You are reading it with modern eyes. ;)
 
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Berean Tim

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Interpretation.

You are reading it with modern eyes. ;)
Of course I am. How should I read it ? With your interpretation ?
Back to the original question.
Who was the false prophet ? If it's so clear Nero was the beast surely the false prophet is known.
 
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Lost4words

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Of course I am. How should I read it ? With your interpretation ?
Back to the original question.
Who was the false prophet ? If it's so clear Nero was the beast surely the false prophet is known.

Remember when it was written my friend. Its not to be taken literally. There is a LOT of hidden meanings in it. Plus, Jesus did say:

Revelation 1
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.
 
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Berean Tim

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Remember when it was written my friend. Its not to be taken literally. There is a LOT of hidden meanings in it. Plus, Jesus did say:

Revelation 1
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.
Isaiah 13 6Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
as destruction from the Almightyc it will come!
7Therefore all hands will be feeble,
and every human heart will melt.
8They will be dismayed:
pangs and agony will seize them;
they will be in anguish like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at one another;
their faces will be aflame.

This was several hundred years from the fall of Babylon. The Day of the Lord is always near.
You still avoid the question. Who was the false prophet ? It's because you can't and your interpretation fails.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Mark of the beast was to do with Nero.

Revelation is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the Bible. ;)

This Preterist fixation with the past is wearisome to observe.
 
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charsan

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Mark of the beast was to do with Nero.

Revelation is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the Bible. ;)

Exactly, it's symbolic not real. So many take it literally but it is not.
 
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Revelation 1
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.


We must go beyond soundbyte answers to understand this.

John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day (Rev 1.10). The above quote should be considered with that prophetic, future context in mind. When Yeshua says He is about to return, it's in the context of the Lord's Day, when the events described therein are transpiring, specifically the temple ministry is restored (ie, the fruitless fig tree is sprouting leaves again) and more specifically the abomination of desolation is set up, who is the false messiah installed in the temple as an idol after being 'resurrected' from a deadly head wound by the false prophet imitating Elijah resurrecting the widow's son in the OT (a theme echoed in freemasonry where Solomon's temple is central, coincidentally).

Scriptures show what to expect when specific signs are given to signal Christ's quick return and every eye seeing him come in glory, like the sun shining from the east, with myriads of angels and resurrected glorified believers to rule over earth, and the mount of Olives splitting in two when He returns where He was taken up after He told the apostles they would NOT know the times or season when He would return to establish the kingdom (Act 1.7,11) - in other words they would not be the generation spoken of that will see the signs He gave in the Olivet prophecies whereby they WOULD know the time of His return (Mat 24.33) - when he is right at the door.

While the apostles originally did expect Christ to return in their own time despite Him teaching the opposite, they grew in knowledge and grace and indicated a distant future, even thousands of years: But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2Pe 3.8-9 NAU) and He knew the details of what to expect: But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. (2Pe 3.10 NAU)

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (1Jo 3.2 NAU)

To be sure, these things have not happened yet.

Yeshua said to learn the parable of the fig tree to know when He was about to return (ie, about to come quickly - like a thief upon those unaware). This is critical.

Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered." Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?" And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Mat 21:19-22 NAU)

Yeshua destroyed the fig tree by cursing it for not bearing fruit and uses imagery of a nearby mountain also being destroyed, cast into the sea, thus drawing a connection. Immediately following this He is described as entering the temple showing us it was Mt Zion as the mountain that He was pointing to where the temple stood (the temple mount):

When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?" (Mat 21.23 NAU)

After giving more parable lessons illustrating the hypocrisy and corruption of the temple ministry and elders, he quotes Ps 118 about the 'builders' (ie, of the temple) rejecting the true capstone who is the Messiah and says the kingdom is taken away from them and given to a fruitful people, contrasted against their fruitlessness, thus linking them to the fruitless fig tree.

When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet. (Mat 21.45-46 NAU)

The fig tree is linked to the temple ministry and Sanhedrin (supreme court) who lived in the temple precinct on Mt Zion, which looked good on the outside but was corrupt, spiritually fruitless (like Cain with his offering). This is the same message John the Baptist was preaching from the beginning urging repentance from their wickedness corrupting the kingdom, fruitless, and to be destroyed like the fruitless fig tree:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Mat 3.7-10 NAU)

Yeshua tells the last generation to know what the fig tree is to know when He is soon to return when they see it - that is the restored temple ministry at Mt Zion in Jerusalem, the 'great city' (Rev 11.8) also called the harlot woman who is ruling over an international government and kings (Rev 17.18, 5) is arrayed in the high priestly colors and jewels (Rev 18.4). Rev 13 shows the false prophet restoring the temple and sacrifices, numbering the regathered tribes and making the false messiah into an idol, etc. This has not happened yet either.
 
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Just to reiterate, Nero's name doesn't add up to 666 in Greek nor in Hebrew so it was included with the title Caesar which also had to be misspelled to equal 666 (some documents even changed 666 to 616 in attempts to make things fit). In addition to the manuscript evidence, Irenaeus (disciple of Polycarp bishop of Smyrna, disciple of St John) addressed this and confirmed it was 666 not 616. He also knew the false messiah (or antichrist as most say) to be future to him. We're almost 2000 years behind folks.

Despite everything, numerical gematria itself is never used or endorsed in the bible and actually came from Babylon mystery religions and heavily used in the Kabbalah; the alphanumeric system numeric gematria builds on itself is not biblical and was also imported from pagan practices in the Maccabean period. The bible describes Yeshua's second coming as glorious as leading an army from heaven and every eye will see it when it happens (though the signs leading up to it will be missed by many not watching for it according to scriptural indicators), not like He came the first time largely unseen.

Consider this:

The use of notariqon and even gematria in rabbinic analysis of biblical texts was not invented by rabbis; these methods of text criticism, as noted above, were already used in Babylonian scribal schools long before rabbinic academies are attested. The use of numerical equivalents for names, which could be used instead of the name itself, is well known in Akkadian texts, and the use of notariqon often relied upon puns and word-plays between Akkadian and Sumerian. There is little doubt that these methods employed in Babylonian scribal schools were precursors of rabbinic exegesis, which developed into the typical types of exegesis known in Midrashim. What we do not know is the exact means whereby these ideas were transmitted from one school to another, or one curriculum to another, or exactly when these ideas proliferated to the extent that they influenced study methods within rabbinic academies.

-Geller, Mark J – The Babylonian Background to Talmudic Science (European Association for Jewish Studies, Newsletter 6, 1999, pp 27-31)

In other words, numerical gematria is part of the very Mystery Babylon system John is warning against which has been used to explain the meaning behind Revelation 13.16-18 but rather than revealing the meaning it has concealed it all this time – the opposite of a “revelation.”

How many commentaries on Revelation 13 tell us this?

If that weren’t bad enough already, the whole alpha-numeric system gematria builds upon is itself unbiblical and was never authorized for use either explicitly or by example and certainly not for biblical hermeneutics. Numbers were originally spelled out until copyists incorporated the foreign practice in later copies including some of the Greek texts of Revelation with ‘666’ ironically enough. The system was apparently picked up from the Greeks who likely got it ultimately from Babylon (this warrants further research):

Under Macedonian rule, the Jews also adopted the Greek alphabetic system of numeration, which soon became well established in Judea. Jewish use of the alphabet for numbers is first found on coins of the Maccabean period (second century B.C.E.), and the system was apparently introduced even in the Temple itself, where Greek letters were also used to indicate numbers. 1 It is therefore surprising to note that many writers persist in the misconception that alphabetic numerals were first invented by the Jews, when, in fact, they were half a millennium behind the Greeks in using such a system.

Footnote 1: Shek. 3.2; cited in G. Scholem, Kabbalah (Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974) p. 337

-Barry, Kieren – The Greek Qabalah (Alphabetic Mysticism and Numerology in the Ancient World). 1999. p173

http://www.mysticknowledge.org/The-...icism-and-Numerology-in-the-Ancient-World.pdf

John is using OT language of the biblical practice of counting a census of the tribes of Israel by numbering them by family names. NUMBERS 1.2 “the number of their names” is applied in Rev 13.17 (“the number of his name”) as well as the census conducted by the priest Ezra in 2.2 “The number of the men” vs “the number of a man” in Rev 13.18 fitting in context with the 144,000 faithful mentioned in the next verse (14.1) who were numbered in a census conducted by an angel in Rev 7.3-8 and sealed with the Name of God as protection from His wrath (Cp Eze 9.4-6) which the temple tax was supposed to be a ransom for to stay the plague from the very act of numbering itself (Exo 30.12-16).


Another link between the census in Revelation 13.18 and Ezra’s census is the infamous number 666 itself:

The children [sons] of Adonikam [אֲדֹ֣נִיקָ֔ם lit. “my lord has arisen”], six hundred sixty and six. (Ezra 2.13)
 
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Lost4words

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Isaiah 13 6Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
as destruction from the Almightyc it will come!
7Therefore all hands will be feeble,
and every human heart will melt.
8They will be dismayed:
pangs and agony will seize them;
they will be in anguish like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at one another;
their faces will be aflame.

This was several hundred years from the fall of Babylon. The Day of the Lord is always near.
You still avoid the question. Who was the false prophet ? It's because you can't and your interpretation fails.

God bless you buddy
 
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ViaCrucis

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29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Hasn't happen yet !
Who is/was the false prophet ?

When did the sun darken and the moon turn to blood on Pentecost? Yet St. Peter says what happened on Pentecost was in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.

If the meaning of apocalyptic language is "Pay attention!" then we aren't looking for literal dark suns and blood moons; but rather that certain events are important, their significance should be noted. On Pentecost God fulfilled His promise that He would pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, fulfilling also St. John the Baptist's words that the One who would come after him would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire; for on Pentecost the Spirit was sent, poured out, and is the promise to everyone who belongs to Christ.

That the sun did not become dark and the moon did not literally become blood red does not mean that St. Peter was lying to us. Which, by the way, is an actual argument I've seen some Christians claim--because it would be better apparently that Peter was wrong, and apparently all of Acts ch. 2 be wrong, then to acknowledge that apocalyptic language might not be literal.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Berean Tim

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When did the sun darken and the moon turn to blood on Pentecost? Yet St. Peter says what happened on Pentecost was in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.

If the meaning of apocalyptic language is "Pay attention!" then we aren't looking for literal dark suns and blood moons; but rather that certain events are important, their significance should be noted. On Pentecost God fulfilled His promise that He would pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, fulfilling also St. John the Baptist's words that the One who would come after him would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire; for on Pentecost the Spirit was sent, poured out, and is the promise to everyone who belongs to Christ.

That the sun did not become dark and the moon did not literally become blood red does not mean that St. Peter was lying to us. Which, by the way, is an actual argument I've seen some Christians claim--because it would be better apparently that Peter was wrong, and apparently all of Acts ch. 2 be wrong, then to acknowledge that apocalyptic language might not be literal.

-CryptoLutheran
That's right it didn't. It will the day Jesus comes to gather His elect
 
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ViaCrucis

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No just quoting Revelation. Again, Who was the false prophet ?

There have been many false prophets.

Simon Magus, Montanus, Mani, Joseph Smith.

I don't know that there was a singular individual who is the second beast; in the same way that I think the first beast is representative of not just Nero specifically, but the oppressive and tyrannical power of the Roman emperors more broadly (and indeed, all hostile civil powers). The first beast represents the threat to the Church from without; while the false prophet, the second beast, the heresies and threats to the Church from within.

Perhaps there was a literal false teacher, an individual, to be associated here with the second beast--I don't know.

But I am aware of the presence and persistence of false prophets, false teachers, false messiahs; the whole litany of diabolical error which has sought to weasel its way in and choke and shipwreck the the Faithful.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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That's right it didn't. It will the day Jesus comes to gather His elect

So then you also agree that Peter was wrong? That's an interesting take, but I suppose, again, if you have to say Scripture is wrong in order to avoid admitting that apocalyptic language might not be literal--that's your prerogative.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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