Arizona mall shooter was angry incel

MehGuy said:

I don't think TFL was about swearing off women.

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Oh, I must have got which acronym you were talking about mixed up.

MehGuy said:

Wow, you certainly earned your name lol. 6 foot men are like dwarfs to you. My sister is like 4' 10.

Is it true the taller you are, the more fights men try to engage with you? I've heard tall men always have to deal with shorter men trying to beat them up to prove how manly they are, lol.

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Hm. One of those things where I don't have a baseline. I don't really recall that many guys wanting to fight. But then that sounds like something that might happen at a bar, and I don't drink.

I do have a lot of folks walk up to me in stores and want to shake my hand, compare shoe size, and sometimes small children hide behind their mothers my kids report.

MehGuy said:

My sister is like 4' 10.

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My brother is 6'9, near 380 lbs and likes to fight in armor in the SCA. He was older, and I got good at running when he got mad!

Getting late, and I have some things to take care of tomorrow. Fun conversation.

tall73 said:

Interesting. So would that start to change now with more choice for women in dating?

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I don't know.. if that does happen.. women would probably be getting more and more masculine looking.. lol. Men and women are different, but still our choices will gradually have an impact on how the other looks. We men are more neotenic compared to our ancestors because of a byproduct of our selection in women.

If that is the case then then some traits may start to fall out of the lopsided men's pool if some are not able to get attention early on, and some women may go on to not have children or less of them due to delay in starting a family. And it may explain some of the younger generations dating difficulties. Folks may have to change expectations.

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I mean one man can impregnant multiple women. In that sense, if the incel nightmare becomes true and all women flock to the God tier Chads, changes could happen much more frequently. Sort of what might have happened if Hitler won the war. The Nazis were using Aryan looking masculine men as breeding studs. Not sure what would have happened, but the results might not have been what they wanted. I mean Nazism is based on pseudoscience, lol.

A big reason we are so intelligent and creative is because of neoteny. More globular skulls and whatnot.

Origins is a different question, but I can see how genetic diversity and selective pressures could change a population. But I haven't seen much on human neoteny.

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Look it up, it's pretty facinating. Compare the skull of a chimpanzee with the skull of an adult male. They more resemble one another than the skull of an adult chimpanzee.

variant said:

Oh, I must have got which acronym you were talking about mixed up.

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That's alright, hard to keep track of all these strange groups.. lol.

MehGuy said:

That's alright, hard to keep track of all these strange groups.. lol.

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I'll start the group MAA Men against acronyms.

variant said:

My inner cynic says the whole thing was a setup to try and date women.

Yeah, I've started this movement were we've all sworn off all women, but for you I'll make an exception.

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I know a lot of 'sympathizers' who date. They're looking for women who support men's rights. You can't relate to them if you don't. Unless you're willing to consider their argument.

~Bella

LaBèlla said:

I know a lot of 'sympathizers' who date. They're looking for women who support men's rights. You can't relate to them if you don't. Unless you're willing to consider their argument.

~Bella

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Then it's simply a weird movement. I wouldn't date people who differed with me on me with regard to what rights I thought I deserved either.

variant said:

Then it's simply a weird movement. I wouldn't date people who differed with me on me with regard to what rights I thought I deserved either.

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I think a better approach to the problems they've cited is engagement not opting out. Some issues were mentioned in the thread. While removal is an option it doesn't address the problem.

I was willing to listen to understand their perspective. But I don't agree with harboring anger or vilifying groups based on bad experiences. There's personal accountability too. If I make a poor choice I can't blame the male population for my decision. I have to own it and make wiser choices next time.

~Bella

mkgal1 said:

This is an epidemic that keeps getting pushed off to the side. I don't know what it's going to take to address this.

The recent mass shootings in the US all have one thing in common: misogyny | Jessica Valenti <------this article was written 2 years ago, but things certainly haven't improved any since then.

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That's pretty remarkable...

I've seen most of those mass shooting examples listed in your link in other articles claiming that the connection between them is white supremacy.

It seems that when these shooters leave behind a manifesto....it gets used as fuel to promote whatever narrative the writer is pushing.

Perhaps we would be more successful at understanding these things and coming up with real solutions if people stopped using them to promote a political agenda.

variant said:

Not every society has this problem as much as we do. So, something artificial has to be going on.

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I think, fundamentally, this is one of those unexpected side effects of social media.

When I was growing up, I knew guys that were horribly awkward around women/girls. I think most guys feel that way at some point in their lives...I know I did...but social media has transformed the way a percentage of young men deal with that awkwardness.

When I was young there was really only one solution...you repeatedly engaged in conversation with girls until you became more comfortable with it...then you start asking them out, and get comfortable with repeated rejections. Rejection is painful to a lot of young men (it's painful to a lot of adults) but after being rejected repeatedly...I think most young men tend to learn from it and it stops wounding their ego.

Nowadays, young men have the option of retreating from that face to face risk of rejection by interacting with girls and women on social media. The problem is that due to the rather unemotional nature of internet interaction....some of these young men never really learn from the experience or develop on a personal level. They just retreat further into self isolation and occasionally....find a like minded group of young men. These become incel groups....which seem to offer a sad sense of belonging while simultaneously reinforcing their negative perceptions.

Ana the Ist said:

That's pretty remarkable...

I've seen most of those mass shooting examples listed in your link in other articles claiming that the connection between them is white supremacy.

It seems that when these shooters leave behind a manifesto....it gets used as fuel to promote whatever narrative the writer is pushing.

Perhaps we would be more successful at understanding these things and coming up with real solutions if people stopped using them to promote a political agenda.

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Its not that there is a shift in placing the blame (to fit a narrative)......there is an intersection between misogyny and white supremacy.

One of many articles------> When Women are the Enemy: The Intersection of Misogyny and White Supremacy
When Women are the Enemy: The Intersection of Misogyny and White Supremacy

Another ----->Shooting in Ohio, El Paso, Gilroy: Shooters had links to misogyny

mkgal1 said:

Its not that there is a shift in placing the blame (to fit a narrative)......there is an intersection between misogyny and white supremacy.

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Is there? I mean, I'm sure there are misogynists amongst white supremacists....but there's also misogynists in Hollywood. That doesn't mean that there's some deeper connection between making movies and misogyny.

One of many articles------> When Women are the Enemy: The Intersection of Misogyny and White Supremacy
When Women are the Enemy: The Intersection of Misogyny and White Supremacy

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I don't really consider the ADL a reliable source of facts. They may have been at one point...but at least for the better part of the past decade they seem to have shifted towards the creation of politically driven propaganda.

Another ----->Shooting in Ohio, El Paso, Gilroy: Shooters had links to misogyny

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This article is actually a pretty good example of what I'm talking about....

High school classmates of Connor Betts, 24, the gunman who killed nine people Sunday in Dayton, say he was suspended for compiling a “hit list” of people he wanted to kill and a “rape list” of girls he wanted to sexually assault, according to the Associated Press.

Connor Betts definitely had a history of violence....sometimes it was directed at women. If I remember correctly, he also had a learning disability and some serious mental health problems. The article makes no mention of him being involved with white supremacy....again, if I remember correctly, his political views were liberal according to those close to him.

The second example ...

On the day Santino William Legan, 19, killed three people at the Gilroy Garlic Festival, an Instagram post attributed to him recommended the 19th-century book "Might Is Right," which is filled with racist and misogynistic rhetoric.

This is deliberate misinformation. Investigators tried to pin down any kind of motive or clear ideology in this case....and came up empty handed. This guy was also a fan of The Communist Manifesto...yet the author of this article doesn't want to make any connections between communism and misogyny.

The final example....

Investigators believe Patrick Crusius, 21, who killed 22 people in El Paso, posted a racist screed online before the shooting, suggesting “race mixing” is destroying the nation. While authorities haven't mentioned any specific references that indicate Crusius' antipathy toward women, experts say white supremacy and misogyny are closely linked

This guy was clearly a white supremacist....but there's no real evidence of misogyny. You don't find it odd that this article is making a claim....yet the three examples all fall short of actually supporting that claim?

...fortunately, all three shooting victims are recovering including 19-year-old Alfredo Jaime who was in critical condition.

'God had such mercy': Mother of 19-year-old Westgate shooting victim speaks about son's recovery

wing2000 said:

...fortunately, all three shooting victims are recovering including 19-year-old Alfredo Jaime who was in critical condition.

'God had such mercy': Mother of 19-year-old Westgate shooting victim speaks about son's recovery

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That is definitely good to hear.