The Olivet Discourse

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sovereigngrace

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Like most churches throughout history, churches today compromise on what is taught to their flocks, preferring teachers who rationalize, allegorize, spiritualize or simply ignore the prophetic scriptures. The church that believes Bible prophecies concerning the last days can only be understood allegorically or that prophecy is anything less than factual, is easy prey for Satan’s craftiness.

Satan, the great counterfeiter, deceives with half truths, often using scripture out of context, as he did with Jesus in the wilderness temptations. The same will be true with churches that say: yes these passages are literal, but they have no application to us, because they are trusting in the false assurance that they will be raptured away before those events occur. Once such people realise their great mistake, it will be too late to avoid the persecution of the Anti Christ. True believers in those churches will not lose their salvation, but they will endure suffering from which faithfulness to God and His Word, would have protected them. Thus genuine believers in the compromising churches may have to go through what Jesus described in His Olivet Discourse as the ‘Great Tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world.’

It is within the context of the Great Tribulation that Jesus warns the [allegorical type] Thyatiran and Laodicean church leaders– Rev 2:20-22 You tolerate Jezebel, whose teaching lures My servants into false beliefs, she refuses to repent, so I will throw her onto a bed of pain and those who commit [spiritual] adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they renounce what she is doing.

So those teachers who have misled Christians by not properly discerning the Word, will be punished and their flock won’t lose their salvation, but may be subject to the Tribulation.
James 3:1 & Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10

On the other hand, believers who are spiritually prepared, faithful peoples, can look forward to the fulfilment of God’s great promises to His Christian people: great promises of protection during the next prophesied event – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, and then their amazing gathering into the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 36, Zephaniah 3:19-20, Malachi 4:1-6, Hosea 14:4-9 It is those people, the holy ones of God, who will welcome Jesus at His Return with the shout: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord’.


Genesis 18:17-19 ....I shall not conceal from Abraham what I am about to do, because he must tell his descendants what is just and right.
Just as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of the terrible Day of the Lord, that will strike all the earth, so the Lord has warned us to take care to discern His Word, in order that we may tell our children to keep the Way of the Lord and to be aware of His plans for this end time. Jeremiah 23:14

2 Peter 3:7 & 10-12 The world is reserved for a Judgement of fire and the Day of the Lord’ wrath will come unexpectedly. On that Day, the heavens will disappear with a great noise, great flames of fire will bring all the earth into judgement. Since all things will be tested in this manner, think what sort of people you must be, what devout and dedicated lives you should live!
This prophecy does not refer to the New Heavens and New Earth to come after the Millennium and does not match with the descriptions of the glorious Return of Jesus, as many prophecies clearly state that He will not be seen during this forthcoming fire judgement. Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4
Ref: REB, NIV, KJV verses abridged.

This is all rhetoric, speculation and opinion. It is totally inadmissible.

It is scripture that really matters. Rev 20 proves that the binding of Satan has been ongoing since the first resurrection of Christ, which saw Hades emptied and the elect raised to heaven to reign with Christ during the intermediate state. Satan will be given a season before the second coming. When Christ comes in majesty and glory He will usher in the NHNE.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Like most churches throughout history, churches today compromise on what is taught to their flocks, preferring teachers who rationalize, allegorize, spiritualize or simply ignore the prophetic scriptures. The church that believes Bible prophecies concerning the last days can only be understood allegorically or that prophecy is anything less than factual, is easy prey for Satan’s craftiness.

Satan, the great counterfeiter, deceives with half truths, often using scripture out of context, as he did with Jesus in the wilderness temptations. The same will be true with churches that say: yes these passages are literal, but they have no application to us, because they are trusting in the false assurance that they will be raptured away before those events occur. Once such people realise their great mistake, it will be too late to avoid the persecution of the Anti Christ. True believers in those churches will not lose their salvation, but they will endure suffering from which faithfulness to God and His Word, would have protected them. Thus genuine believers in the compromising churches may have to go through what Jesus described in His Olivet Discourse as the ‘Great Tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world.’

It is within the context of the Great Tribulation that Jesus warns the [allegorical type] Thyatiran and Laodicean church leaders– Rev 2:20-22 You tolerate Jezebel, whose teaching lures My servants into false beliefs, she refuses to repent, so I will throw her onto a bed of pain and those who commit [spiritual] adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they renounce what she is doing.

So those teachers who have misled Christians by not properly discerning the Word, will be punished and their flock won’t lose their salvation, but may be subject to the Tribulation.
James 3:1 & Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10

On the other hand, believers who are spiritually prepared, faithful peoples, can look forward to the fulfilment of God’s great promises to His Christian people: great promises of protection during the next prophesied event – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, and then their amazing gathering into the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 36, Zephaniah 3:19-20, Malachi 4:1-6, Hosea 14:4-9 It is those people, the holy ones of God, who will welcome Jesus at His Return with the shout: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord’.


Genesis 18:17-19 ....I shall not conceal from Abraham what I am about to do, because he must tell his descendants what is just and right.
Just as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of the terrible Day of the Lord, that will strike all the earth, so the Lord has warned us to take care to discern His Word, in order that we may tell our children to keep the Way of the Lord and to be aware of His plans for this end time. Jeremiah 23:14

2 Peter 3:7 & 10-12 The world is reserved for a Judgement of fire and the Day of the Lord’ wrath will come unexpectedly. On that Day, the heavens will disappear with a great noise, great flames of fire will bring all the earth into judgement. Since all things will be tested in this manner, think what sort of people you must be, what devout and dedicated lives you should live!
This prophecy does not refer to the New Heavens and New Earth to come after the Millennium and does not match with the descriptions of the glorious Return of Jesus, as many prophecies clearly state that He will not be seen during this forthcoming fire judgement. Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4
Ref: REB, NIV, KJV verses abridged.

Despite the alleged paradise-like conditions, the glorious and victorious unchallenged rule of Christ with a “rod of iron” and the so-called submissiveness of the nations that Premils attribute to their millennial kingdom, surely we are looking at the biggest and most-amazing religious turn-around in history in the Premil scenario? After all, at the first sight of Satan, the nations turn en-mass against Christ to Satan as “the sand of the sea.” Is this not the grossest sin imaginable?
 
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keras

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This is all rhetoric, speculation and opinion. It is totally inadmissible.
It seems that anything that conflicts with your beliefs, is that despite it being the truth.
It is scripture that really matters. Rev 20 proves that the binding of Satan has been ongoing since the first resurrection of Christ, which saw Hades emptied and the elect raised to heaven to reign with Christ during the intermediate state. Satan will be given a season before the second coming. When Christ comes in majesty and glory He will usher in the NHNE.
If the binding of Satan has been ongoing for the last 2000 years, how come he can still deceive people?

Nowhere in scripture does it say the new heavens and earth will come at the Return of Jesus.
Revelation 21:1-7 is indisputable; Only after the Millennium and the GWT Judgment will they come.
After all, at the first sight of Satan, the nations turn en-mass against Christ to Satan as “the sand of the sea.” Is this not the grossest sin imaginable?
They will all die for their rebellion. Revelation 20:9
 
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sovereigngrace

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If the binding of Satan has been ongoing for the last 2000 years, how come he can still deceive people?

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (or ethnos) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

This truth relates to the Gentiles as a whole. It is a generality! But individuals can still be deceived by Satan. This is not a contradiction. It is repeated throughout the OT and the NT. It is telling us that the Gentiles are no longer ignorant. A light has shone on them for 2000 years, giving them the opportunity to see and believe.

Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.

Many overlook the seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity that exist today (in comparison to before the cross) in regard to the nations access to truth.

This truth is highlighted in Matthew 4:8-9 where the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.”

During the temptations of Christ in the desert, Satan offers Jesus the world if He would only bow down before him. Satan was well within his rights to make such an offer since Adam handed over world dominion to him when he allowed himself to be subject to Satan's will.

The parallel passage in Luke 4:5-7 says: “And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.”

Manifestly, through Adam’s sin, Satan was able to present a legitimate temptation to Christ. The fact the devil had the capability to tempt the Lord with this enticement proves he enjoyed authority over the nations that had to be broken. Ultimately, God permitted Satan to have this authority. But it was Adam that relinquished this rule over the earth in the Fall. After all, this was a definite and a real legitimate temptation. The devil had huge power over this world.

God controlled one single nation. Satan controlled the nations plural.

Acts 14:16 confirms that God “in times past suffered all nations (ethnos) to walk in their own ways.”

Acts 17:30 says, the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles (ethnos) in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Did that mean that all Gentiles were wholesale lost or deceived? No! Many Gentiles found Christ in the OT. It was a general observation at the prevailing spiritual condition of the mass of the people. That is all Rev 20 is saying.

The Scriptures often depict the Gentiles in the Old Testament as deceived, without hope, blinded, ignorant and darkened. The Bible repeatedly describes the Gentiles in the New Testament as enlightened. That does not suggest that all were blind in the Old Testament or that all will be enlightened in the New Testament. These are simply sweeping generalities establishing the Gospel climate in either era. The widespread light didn’t shine on the nations throughout the Old Testament. Today, it does exist as the Gospel is preached throughout the nations. Before the cross, the Gospel was largely withheld from the nations. After the cross, the Gospel spread like wildfire throughout the globe. Like Israel in the Old Testament, the Gentiles in the New Testament have now had the light shone on them through the great commission.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Nowhere in scripture does it say the new heavens and earth will come at the Return of Jesus.
Revelation 21:1-7 is indisputable; Only after the Millennium and the GWT Judgment will they come.

Your personal opinion contradicts the facts of Scripture.

Jesus words in Matthew 24:27 correlate with repeated Scripture relating to the second coming: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky.

The detail described, and applied to Christ’s coming, relates to His one final future coming of the Lord. The detail is literal. It is climatic. It is cataclysmic. It sees the removal of the bondage of corruption (all the awful result of the fall) from this earth and the cosmic planets. It also sees the regeneration of this current earth and its replacement with a new perfect order. This beautifully correlates with other climatic Scripture that shows a cosmic conflagration when Jesus comes.

Matthew 24:35-51: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

Mark 13:31-37: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Men can impose whatever opinions they want on Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, but the only safe and trustworthy interpreter of these passages is Scripture itself. As you piece this whole subject together, it is crucial to bring as much relevant or corresponding sacred text to the table as possible for serious analysis. The informed Bible student will (or should) immediately turn to 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5. As you look at these two passages you are immediately struck by the fact that the writers use the same type of verbiage and similar climactic detail. It is interesting that other related words are attributed to the all-consummating event in view. Few could objectively question that we are looking at a literal event and at the magnificent coming of Jesus Christ in the future in all His climatic power and glory.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

It is not just that Scripture depicts the second coming as “the last day,” it is that it labels it also as “the end of the age/world.”

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth [Gr. ] and the heaven [Gr. ouranos] fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. ]: for the first heaven [Gr. ouranos] and the first earth [Gr. ] were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away [Gr. aperchomai]. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

This is the second coming!

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

Once again, we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.
 
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keras

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Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.
Exactly; those worthy will receive immortality and will live for Eternity on a renewed earth. It is quite clear that this will happen AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

The rest of your lengthy sermons, are just failed attempts to prove a false belief.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Exactly; those worthy will receive immortality and will live for Eternity on a renewed earth. It is quite clear that this will happen AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

The rest of your lengthy sermons, are just failed attempts to prove a false belief.

You are cherry picking what you read, receive and believe. The detail here all correlates and describes what will happen at the climactic coming of Christ. This forbids your theology.
 
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claninja

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Now I am even more confused.

Sorry for the confusion. To explain it better " the old testament is the new testament concealed. The new testament is the old testament revealed".

The new testament is not NEW information, it is the old testament revealed.


Are you saying the NT prophecies are just a recap of the OT prophecies?

The NT prophecies are not new information. They are explanations on how the OT prophecies are to be fulfilled.

For example:

1.)Jesus associated the abomination of desolation with the destruction of Jerusalem

Matthew 24:15 So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Daniel 9:27 And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

2.) Jesus associates the great tribulation with the destruction of Jerusalem
Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Daniel 12:1 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.


3.) Peter was waiting for the new heavens and earth as prophesied by isaiah
2 Peter 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth,

Are the NT prophecies - New Heavens and New Earth for example, future or past?

They are past and Future or "already but not yet".


1.) For Peter the New heavens and New earth were still future. Remember 2 Peter was written prior to the Fall of Jerusalem in 66-70ad.

Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

2 Peter 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

If Peter's understanding of the heavens and earth of Isaiah were literal, then his words were contradictory with another passage he wrote, for the destruction of the physical world was not in fact at hand.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

2.) For Paul, the Jerusalem that God was going to create was a already a present reality through the new covenant. Paul uses an allegorical understanding of the Jerusalem of hope in the OT to point to the New covenant.

Isaiah 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.

Galatians 4:24-26 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

3.) When a believer is born again, they are a new creation. When a believer dies to the law, through the body of Christ, the are raised to serve God in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. This is a Spiritual transformation.

2 corinthians 5:16-17 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.b The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Galatisn 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Romans 7:4-6 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.c

Thus, it is argued by the partial preterist that the passing of of the old heavens and earth is similar to that of the believer. When the old covenant system was removed in 66-70ad, the heavens and earth were no longer bound to the law, similar to that of the believer. Thus, just as the believer is now a new creation in Christ, the heavens and earth were now a new creation under the new covenant, when old was removed.

2 corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Thus, the partial preterist understands that the passing away of heavens and earth is similar to that of the Believer. When the believer dies to the old written code, that Spiritual raised to the new covenant (being born again). Therefore the old heavens and earth passed away with the destruction of the old covenant in 66-70ad, and was created new for us to dwell in while we are on the earth or when we when we go home to be with the Lord.

This does not preclude a future coming of Christ, a future judgment of mankind, and a future resurrection.







 
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mkgal1

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None of these make mention of, or refer to, the literal physical visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ. So your argument is totally moot. The next time He comes He will come physically, and every eye will see Him. That has not happened yet. This will occur on the last day of the last days. This will usher in the end.
My point was about Old Testament references to God's judgment of historic nations (and the apocalyptic language used). I wasn't referring to the future (so no wonder there's no mention or reference of the future).

Have you had a recent shift in beliefs? Recently you posted this. Have you changed your mind?:

Sovereigngrace said:
Like Partial Preterists and Historicists, and other Idealists, I believe Daniel 9 has been fulfilled in and through the earthly Messianic ministry of Christ. Idealists also hold that a lot (but not all) of Matthew 24 Mark 13 and Luke 21 was fulfilled in AD70. For example, I believe the great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 relates to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem
Original post here--->Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism
 
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sovereigngrace

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Sorry for the confusion. To explain it better " the old testament is the new testament concealed. The new testament is the old testament revealed".

The new testament is not NEW information, it is the old testament revealed.




The NT prophecies are not new information. They are explanations on how the OT prophecies are to be fulfilled.

For example:

1.)Jesus associated the abomination of desolation with the destruction of Jerusalem

Matthew 24:15 So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Daniel 9:27 And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

2.) Jesus associates the great tribulation with the destruction of Jerusalem
Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Daniel 12:1 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.


3.) Peter was waiting for the new heavens and earth as prophesied by isaiah
2 Peter 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth,



They are past and Future or "already but not yet".


1.) For Peter the New heavens and New earth were still future. Remember 2 Peter was written prior to the Fall of Jerusalem in 66-70ad.

Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

2 Peter 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

If Peter's understanding of the heavens and earth of Isaiah were literal, then his words were contradictory with another passage he wrote, for the destruction of the physical world was not in fact at hand.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

2.) For Paul, the Jerusalem that God was going to create was a already a present reality through the new covenant. Paul uses an allegorical understanding of the Jerusalem of hope in the OT to point to the New covenant.

Isaiah 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.

Galatians 4:24-26 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

3.) When a believer is born again, they are a new creation. When a believer dies to the law, through the body of Christ, the are raised to serve God in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. This is a Spiritual transformation.

2 corinthians 5:16-17 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.b The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Galatisn 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Romans 7:4-6 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.c

Thus, it is argued by the partial preterist that the passing of of the old heavens and earth is similar to that of the believer. When the old covenant system was removed in 66-70ad, the heavens and earth were no longer bound to the law, similar to that of the believer. Thus, just as the believer is now a new creation in Christ, the heavens and earth were now a new creation under the new covenant, when old was removed.

2 corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Thus, the partial preterist understands that the passing away of heavens and earth is similar to that of the Believer. When the believer dies to the old written code, that Spiritual raised to the new covenant (being born again). Therefore the old heavens and earth passed away with the destruction of the old covenant in 66-70ad, and was created new for us to dwell in while we are on the earth or when we when we go home to be with the Lord.

This does not preclude a future coming of Christ, a future judgment of mankind, and a future resurrection.

This is so messed up I don't know where to start. This is classic Origenism heresy. These is no contradiction between the inspired writers. It is your understanding of what they teach that is a contradiction.

Does sin continue today?
Does death continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?
Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
When does incorruption arrive?
Is "the bondage of corruption" removed from the creature and creation at the moment?
Do you believe that sin, corruption, death and Satan continue on forever?


Let us establish a few clear absolutes:

(1) The very use of “heaven and earth,” without any attached qualification, allows us to understand this as a universal event. (2) The repeated literal meaning of the two Greek words when combined together supports this conclusion. (3) This is reinforced by the fact the recipients being warned are not merely the residents of the city of Jerusalem, as Preterists argue, but a global audience. As Luke 21:35 states: “For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” This could not be clearer! Only the bias observer would (or could) argue otherwise.

When talking about the removal of the current “heaven and earth,” the 5 major similar texts, describing regeneration of both at the coming of the Lord, use the same Greek word parerchomai indicating the ‘passing away’ of the current corrupt natural arrangement we are experiencing now and its replacement with a brand new incorrupt creation.
 
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sovereigngrace

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My point was about Old Testament references to God's judgment of historic nations (and the apocalyptic language used). I wasn't referring to the future (so no wonder there's no mention or reference of the future).

Have you had a recent shift in beliefs? Recently you posted this. Have you changed your mind?:


What have I changed? I have always believed in the literal physical visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ. The next time He comes He will come physically, and every eye will see Him. That has not happened yet. This will occur on the last day of the last days. This will usher in the end.

AD 70 and the coming of Titus was not the second coming or the coming of Christ. It never will be. No Scripture says that.
 
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mkgal1

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What have I changed? I have always believed in the literal physical visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ. The next time He comes He will come physically, and every eye will see Him. That has not happened yet. This will occur on the last day of the last days. This will usher in the end.
Why do you keep bringing that up? That is not what I'm referring to. Let's stay with what we know is written in Scripture and what we know has already occurred.

You wrote earlier:

Sovereigngrace said:
For example, I believe the great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 relates to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem in 70 AD.
You give God the credit there (and don't call it the goading phrase "coming of Titus"). You demonstrate here that Jesus' words were true....are you now backtracking on this statement?

Because now you're posting this:

sovereigngrace said:
AD 70 and the coming of Titus was not the second coming or the coming of Christ. It never will be. No Scripture says that.
I'm not suggesting it is His return (what you are calling "Second Coming"). That seems to be the confusion all along. I still believe in His future return. I've stated that many times. The issue may be that you have limited the times God has demonstrated His glory and omnipotence to humanity.....His comings....the times He has demonstrated that He is the one True God. You seem to be limiting that to once....in the future...when I see it many times throughout thousands of years of recorded history.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Sorry for the confusion. To explain it better " the old testament is the new testament concealed. The new testament is the old testament revealed".

Is this a typo? The famous statement by Saint Augustine goes, "The new is in the old concealed; the old is in the new revealed.”

1.)Jesus associated the abomination of desolation with the destruction of Jerusalem

OK, but as a precursor to a yet future abomination.

2.) Jesus associates the great tribulation with the destruction of Jerusalem

OK, but as a precursor to a yet future tribulation.

3.) Peter was waiting for the new heavens and earth as prophesied by isaiah

And he is still waiting.

1.) For Peter the New heavens and New earth were still future. Remember 2 Peter was written prior to the Fall of Jerusalem in 66-70ad.

So it was written prior to AD 70. Prior to our solar system “disappearing with a roar” too.

3.) When a believer is born again, they are a new creation. When a believer dies to the law, through the body of Christ, the are raised to serve God in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. This is a Spiritual transformation.

Indeed! That why AD 30 was the apex of history.

Thus, it is argued by the partial preterist that the passing of of the old heavens and earth is similar to that of the believer. When the old covenant system was removed in 66-70ad, the heavens and earth were no longer bound to the law, similar to that of the believer. Thus, just as the believer is now a new creation in Christ, the heavens and earth were now a new creation under the new covenant, when old was removed.

That’s why Im not a partial preterist. The Old Covenant system was removed in AD 30 lock, stock, and barrel. Your focus on the AD 70 event distracts from a broad understanding of the Parousia in the same way as Dispensationalists focus on a future seven years. So, my view is that Christ’s comings are a sweep of history, ending with a new Heavens (solar system) and a new Earth, as described by Peter and by the prophets.
 
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mkgal1

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Is this a typo? The famous statement by Saint Augustine goes, "The new is in the old concealed; the old is in the new revealed.”
Chris, I've seen it quoted a few ways. I have seen this version as well (don't they all convey the same message?):

the “New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.”​
 
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mkgal1

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Sure, but Claninja said, "the old testament is the new testament concealed." But I expect he meant it the other way round. We all do it when coffee time is due. :coffee:
I still see that as meaning the same thing. Concealed; hidden .....the new is in the old.

Revealed; unveiled.....the old is in the new.
 
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mkgal1

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That’s why Im not a partial preterist. The Old Covenant system was removed in AD 30 lock, stock, and barrel.
If this were so, then why did Paul seem to go along with trying to disprove the rumors about him NOT being in obedience to the Law? I don't see Paul as being a "the means justifies the end" kind of guy. I believe Paul was fully committed to Truth and the will of God.

Acts 21:24 ~ Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.
 
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BABerean2

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If this were so, then why did Paul seem to go along with trying to disprove the rumors about him NOT being in obedience to the Law? I don't see Paul as being a "the means justifies the end" kind of guy. I believe Paul was fully committed to Truth and the will of God.

Acts 21:24 ~ Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.


2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

.
 
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